Motorsport: modified 944 vs 968 Clubsport?
Discussion
Hi all.
I am looking to enter the Porsche Middle East championship next season and need to start thinking about which car to race. There are four categories, of which the highest comprises GT2/3/turbo and the lowest is 944/968.
As the GT3 is my p & j, I have absolutely no wish to race it (although it will remain my daily driver and non-competitive track day car). Some people are crazy enough to race them but not me. My budget extends to a dirt cheap (read cosmetically tatty but mechanically sound) 944 or 968. Obviously the newer the better, but I'm not that keen to spend more than 5 grand (sterling) on the car itself (which pretty much rules out the 968, unless anyone can persuade me otherwise). Total outlay including mods should not be more than 10k sterling.
I was previously thinking of a 944 turbo or S2 and doing extensive mods (no major engine work since all cars are dyno'd and handicapped accordingly, just stripped/roll cage/seats/harnesses/fire and suspension). However, I have been told a 968 Clubsport with M030 and lsd will be far superior and punch well above its weight. Problem is it costs at least 10-11k for a tatty example and I don't even think it would include M030 at that price (plus I would have to import from Europe/UK which is a hassle).
Questions:
1. Can a 944 be fitted with M030?
2. Ideally I am looking for no-compromise handling on a smooth track: can I get something aftermarket which is more race ready than M030?
3. I am told race-prepped 968s can be found for a lot less than taking a road car and converting it: anyone know where?
4. Would it be more economically viable to take a dirt cheap base 968, then stripping it in extreme fashion to get an "uber-clubsport"?
Thanks for any help, folks.
I am looking to enter the Porsche Middle East championship next season and need to start thinking about which car to race. There are four categories, of which the highest comprises GT2/3/turbo and the lowest is 944/968.
As the GT3 is my p & j, I have absolutely no wish to race it (although it will remain my daily driver and non-competitive track day car). Some people are crazy enough to race them but not me. My budget extends to a dirt cheap (read cosmetically tatty but mechanically sound) 944 or 968. Obviously the newer the better, but I'm not that keen to spend more than 5 grand (sterling) on the car itself (which pretty much rules out the 968, unless anyone can persuade me otherwise). Total outlay including mods should not be more than 10k sterling.
I was previously thinking of a 944 turbo or S2 and doing extensive mods (no major engine work since all cars are dyno'd and handicapped accordingly, just stripped/roll cage/seats/harnesses/fire and suspension). However, I have been told a 968 Clubsport with M030 and lsd will be far superior and punch well above its weight. Problem is it costs at least 10-11k for a tatty example and I don't even think it would include M030 at that price (plus I would have to import from Europe/UK which is a hassle).
Questions:
1. Can a 944 be fitted with M030?
2. Ideally I am looking for no-compromise handling on a smooth track: can I get something aftermarket which is more race ready than M030?
3. I am told race-prepped 968s can be found for a lot less than taking a road car and converting it: anyone know where?
4. Would it be more economically viable to take a dirt cheap base 968, then stripping it in extreme fashion to get an "uber-clubsport"?
Thanks for any help, folks.
944's and 968's are very similar in fact the suspension on late 944's S2/Turbo is nigh on identical to 968's. MO30 will fit both and 17" wheels will also fit 944's so long as you fit castor blocks from the 968. The main difference is in the engine bay.
944 s2 210 bhp 16valve 3ltr
944 Turbo 220 bhp (early 250) late models
968 CS 240 bhp 3ltr 16v with Variocam.
I'm assuming you will strip the cars out so weight should be similar for all three.
Also note that there are more exotic suspenion parts on then market now for the 944/68 and M030 is really a bit long in the tooth. There are packages from people like Leda which are well regarded.
Personally if I had the money I would start with the cheaper car (the s2) and put money into the suspenion and brakes. There is no magic ingriedient which makes the clubsport superior in every area!
944 s2 210 bhp 16valve 3ltr
944 Turbo 220 bhp (early 250) late models
968 CS 240 bhp 3ltr 16v with Variocam.
I'm assuming you will strip the cars out so weight should be similar for all three.
Also note that there are more exotic suspenion parts on then market now for the 944/68 and M030 is really a bit long in the tooth. There are packages from people like Leda which are well regarded.
Personally if I had the money I would start with the cheaper car (the s2) and put money into the suspenion and brakes. There is no magic ingriedient which makes the clubsport superior in every area!
Harris_I said:
Hi all.
I am looking to enter the Porsche Middle East championship next season and need to start thinking about which car to race. There are four categories, of which the highest comprises GT2/3/turbo and the lowest is 944/968.
As the GT3 is my p & j, I have absolutely no wish to race it (although it will remain my daily driver and non-competitive track day car). Some people are crazy enough to race them but not me. My budget extends to a dirt cheap (read cosmetically tatty but mechanically sound) 944 or 968. Obviously the newer the better, but I'm not that keen to spend more than 5 grand (sterling) on the car itself (which pretty much rules out the 968, unless anyone can persuade me otherwise). Total outlay including mods should not be more than 10k sterling.
I was previously thinking of a 944 turbo or S2 and doing extensive mods (no major engine work since all cars are dyno'd and handicapped accordingly, just stripped/roll cage/seats/harnesses/fire and suspension). However, I have been told a 968 Clubsport with M030 and lsd will be far superior and punch well above its weight. Problem is it costs at least 10-11k for a tatty example and I don't even think it would include M030 at that price (plus I would have to import from Europe/UK which is a hassle).
Questions:
1. Can a 944 be fitted with M030?
2. Ideally I am looking for no-compromise handling on a smooth track: can I get something aftermarket which is more race ready than M030?
3. I am told race-prepped 968s can be found for a lot less than taking a road car and converting it: anyone know where?
4. Would it be more economically viable to take a dirt cheap base 968, then stripping it in extreme fashion to get an "uber-clubsport"?
Thanks for any help, folks.
Good luck on getting a useable Turbo/ S2 for £5K- they will almost certianly need engine work at that price. Unfortunantly, quite a few S2's that I know about are starting to have cracks appearing in the blocks.
Anyhow, to answer your question:
1)Yes. Any 944 can, although to keep things simple (if you dont go for a turbo/S2) is to buy a post 85 car, which hubs will not need modifying
2)You can always get some specialist set-up (Leda suspension is becomming more popular, and it has more set-up options)
3) cant help you. I'm afraid. Try the 968 section of your local Porsche club
4) 968 will cost more to begin with then a 944- and the 968 are heavier then an S2 944.
You could always lighten a 944 Turbo- mine produces reliably 294bhp and 347 lb ft. Lighten this and you should have a real flyer, for less then the financial outlay of a 968 CS.
Hope this helps
Will
Thanks for the replies so far.
I too am interested in the issue of engine wear.
The car will be doing approx 6-8 races per season, and each race is likely to last approx 20 mins (plus practice and qualifying session). The heat can get pretty intense, although we are unlikely to run in the summer season when temperatures climb above 40. The car may also be used for autocross (8 races per season) but these are not hard on the car due to the limited time on the short circuit.
I am financially prepared for engine rebuilds but wonder how likely this is with cars of this age? Am I asking for a world of trouble by buying a 15-17 year old turbo (my current preferred choice)?
I too am interested in the issue of engine wear.
The car will be doing approx 6-8 races per season, and each race is likely to last approx 20 mins (plus practice and qualifying session). The heat can get pretty intense, although we are unlikely to run in the summer season when temperatures climb above 40. The car may also be used for autocross (8 races per season) but these are not hard on the car due to the limited time on the short circuit.
I am financially prepared for engine rebuilds but wonder how likely this is with cars of this age? Am I asking for a world of trouble by buying a 15-17 year old turbo (my current preferred choice)?
There was an 8v 944 race car that did very well in the porsche open cup last year that is for sale... I think the rules around engine mods where pretty tight in that series as well so it should be ok for yours.. it has all the welded in cage etc that is required as well...
email me if you want the contact details... i think he was looking for a bit over £5k but it was only a "little bit"
Lali
email me if you want the contact details... i think he was looking for a bit over £5k but it was only a "little bit"
Lali
I only have anecdotal information on the S2 engine blocks- but I have seen and heard quite a few recently which have cracks and needed to be replaced. Not sure what the cause might be- possiblt the additional boring on making it into a 3 litre, perhaps.
For racing I would go for a Turbo every time- a lot more possible tuning available, plus (if you get an 89 year Turbo) you'll get the LSD as standard along with the gearbox oil cooler. Of course, you could go for the 968 6 speed gearbox conversion (dont know if you can retro-fit the gearbox cooling apparatus)
For racing I would go for a Turbo every time- a lot more possible tuning available, plus (if you get an 89 year Turbo) you'll get the LSD as standard along with the gearbox oil cooler. Of course, you could go for the 968 6 speed gearbox conversion (dont know if you can retro-fit the gearbox cooling apparatus)
If your total budget is 10k then I think the Turbo or 968 is out the window. Your looking at either an S2 that definitely does not need a rebuild straightaway or a 2.5 / 2.7 that does need a fresh engine.
EMC engines in Birmingham prepare the 2.5s for the UK race series so it must be worth contacting them for advice on costings. Kevin Eacock is the owner, but I can't find any contact numbers at the moment. One of the PH regulars had his 2.5 rebuilt by Kevin after a VMAX blowup
and IIRC it made approx 190bhp and cost circa £1500
EMC engines in Birmingham prepare the 2.5s for the UK race series so it must be worth contacting them for advice on costings. Kevin Eacock is the owner, but I can't find any contact numbers at the moment. One of the PH regulars had his 2.5 rebuilt by Kevin after a VMAX blowup
and IIRC it made approx 190bhp and cost circa £1500 Blast. Now I have more questions than answers. Thanks for your various very helpful posts. I had a surf of the web and realise that I need to get some quotes on mods to understand the total cost, as has been suggested.
Strong contender is late 944 turbo (250 bhp and lsd) plus mods versus early 968 (non clubsport) but converted to clubsport spec (lsd, leda or equivalent, and heavily stripped - I am banking on labour costs being a lot lower out here than back home, but it looks like I may have to set my budget higher - don't tell the wife).
In the end, I suspect it will come down to which car has the soundest mechanicals for the cheapest price.
Strong contender is late 944 turbo (250 bhp and lsd) plus mods versus early 968 (non clubsport) but converted to clubsport spec (lsd, leda or equivalent, and heavily stripped - I am banking on labour costs being a lot lower out here than back home, but it looks like I may have to set my budget higher - don't tell the wife).
In the end, I suspect it will come down to which car has the soundest mechanicals for the cheapest price.
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