996 Turbo Driving Flow
Discussion
OK, some of you may remember my 996T went in for some remedial work in January at 9E and came back with a Stage 1, amongst other things. I am not driving god and I am fairly cautious - perhaps overly so. I live near Oxford and there are lots of lovely roads to drive up towards Banbury and across to Morton and further south. Nice, well-sighted A roads in the main. I like good visibility, a nice surface and width and so tend to prefer lesser A roads to B roads. Problem is that this sort of road invites you to press on and my car seems to burst forward at any chance. Although only Stage 1 it seems remarkably fast. Ken said it would feel as if I used to tow a caravan and he is quite correct. I have the 6-pot fronts and RS29 all round and new disks. I seem to constantly be either on the throttle or on the brakes and the car seems to roll a bit on direction changes. This is amplified by the acceleration and braking. Result is, it is hard to find any sensible flow in the car. This is a funny thing to say, I know, but something that is important to pleasurable driving. Perhaps I need new suspension and to take corners with more conviction and the flow will come. I may be overly cautious braking and lose momentum. Perhaps I should just drive a bit slower between corners and balance the car for the bend.
Of all the new cars I could test drive presently I’d like to try a McLaren. Probably a 570S as they almost seem sensible. The 720 would also be good but ludicrously warp-speed. I’m just not sure how it would handle the Oxfordshire roads. I have Chris Harris with his 205 Rallye in the back of my mind and Autocar’s comparisons of fast vs slow cross country. Perhaps I need a lower powered, lighter car to wring out and enjoy at lower speeds? Perhaps it is the turbo charged surge and a n.a. car would be more progressive? Do other drivers succeed in finding flow?
Of all the new cars I could test drive presently I’d like to try a McLaren. Probably a 570S as they almost seem sensible. The 720 would also be good but ludicrously warp-speed. I’m just not sure how it would handle the Oxfordshire roads. I have Chris Harris with his 205 Rallye in the back of my mind and Autocar’s comparisons of fast vs slow cross country. Perhaps I need a lower powered, lighter car to wring out and enjoy at lower speeds? Perhaps it is the turbo charged surge and a n.a. car would be more progressive? Do other drivers succeed in finding flow?
In my experience, the 996 Turbo isn't the most interactive machine. Stunningly fast and capable with a remap but lacking in involvement and excitement,. All just my opinion, others make thing differently.
For example, try a 997 C2S back to back, similar price points, same badge but they're chalk and cheese on the back roads. The 997 is a lot of fun, I never found that with the Turbo (but my god was the power of the remap seductive!).
For example, try a 997 C2S back to back, similar price points, same badge but they're chalk and cheese on the back roads. The 997 is a lot of fun, I never found that with the Turbo (but my god was the power of the remap seductive!).
Science Teacher, have fitted Ohlins road and track to mine as the remap etc just overwhelmed the stock stuff.
I also run RS29s all round on 350mm discs, along with Cup2 Michelin tyres. The latter made an enormous difference to the car, both in terms of comfort (much better) and grip. Mine doesn't deliberately see wet weather driving, so I was happy to swap the PS2s out for their cousins.
The car now is ridiculously capable, especially with RSS engine mounts. It drives like a new car according to a 991.2 RS owning friend of mine, he came back grinning from ear to ear! His overwhelming impression was that it was now a perfect road car, fast, comfortable and massively capable when hustled.
I imagine 9e would give an unbiased opinion on the suspension upgrade. This may be the wrong direction for you and you may well be better off with a more engaging drive, but have a drive of an Ohlins equipped car if you get the chance and see what you think.
I also run RS29s all round on 350mm discs, along with Cup2 Michelin tyres. The latter made an enormous difference to the car, both in terms of comfort (much better) and grip. Mine doesn't deliberately see wet weather driving, so I was happy to swap the PS2s out for their cousins.
The car now is ridiculously capable, especially with RSS engine mounts. It drives like a new car according to a 991.2 RS owning friend of mine, he came back grinning from ear to ear! His overwhelming impression was that it was now a perfect road car, fast, comfortable and massively capable when hustled.
I imagine 9e would give an unbiased opinion on the suspension upgrade. This may be the wrong direction for you and you may well be better off with a more engaging drive, but have a drive of an Ohlins equipped car if you get the chance and see what you think.
I'd suggest Sir needs to try a nice air-cooled car, lots of fun to be had at sane speeds. Improving a 996 Turbo won't tick the engagement and tactility boxes, on the contrary (in my experience) and if you think the 996 is lacking, you'll find a 570S and its ilk so accomplished, you may as well take the train.
Evening Mike, I hope you're keeping safe and well ? The fitment of Cup 2's definitely will up the grip (which in turn allows improved "flow", but at far higher speeds than you'd care to do using the old PS2's) and the steering becomes even more inert, that's hardly a step in the right direction for the OP (from my perspective).
Evening Mike, I hope you're keeping safe and well ? The fitment of Cup 2's definitely will up the grip (which in turn allows improved "flow", but at far higher speeds than you'd care to do using the old PS2's) and the steering becomes even more inert, that's hardly a step in the right direction for the OP (from my perspective).
Edited by Slippydiff on Monday 18th May 19:23
Thanks for this, gents. I have a deep admiration and long term desire for the turbo. I find the car fascinating and captivating and would probably find the GT3 lacking generally, if superlative on occasion. The reality of driving may be a bit different to expectations but I will work with it. My suspicion is some slightly tauter suspension my iron things out. Never ending, of course... That said I can’t wait to get out and drive again. I think I need a big Euro mission to satisfy things. My car will be good at that. I fancy visiting a restaurant or two near Annecy, then driving to a friend’s in Zurich - if I can get the Commander in Chief’s blessing. Drove down to the Cost Brava last year through the Pyrenees, but in the Volvo. A brilliant drive.
Slippydiff said:
I'd suggest Sir needs to try a nice air-cooled car, lots of fun to be had at sane speeds. Improving a 996 Turbo won't tick the engagement and tactility boxes, on the contrary (in my experience) and if you think the 996 is lacking, you'll find a 570S and its ilk so accomplished, you may as well take the train.
Evening Mike, I hope you're keeping safe and well ? The fitment of Cup 2's definitely will up the grip (which in turn allows improved "flow", but at far higher speeds than you'd care to do using the old PS2's) and the steering becomes even more inert, that's hardly a step in the right direction for the OP (from my perspective).
Evening Henry, so far so good on the health front, and your good self? I agree that the steering can feel a little inert, but mine is running 8'15" of caster, so around half a degree more than the average turbo. The upside of this is that the steering is not trying to fight me over bumpy roads, which it did constantly on the stock suspension. This results in a far more relaxing drive in a straight line over bumpy sections, allowing me to accurately place the car come corner-time. That has probably been one of the most satisfying areas of improvement in driving dynamics since having the kit fitted. Evening Mike, I hope you're keeping safe and well ? The fitment of Cup 2's definitely will up the grip (which in turn allows improved "flow", but at far higher speeds than you'd care to do using the old PS2's) and the steering becomes even more inert, that's hardly a step in the right direction for the OP (from my perspective).
Edited by Slippydiff on Monday 18th May 19:23
It is no two wheel drive version, granted, but as you know, my situation precludes swapping and hopping into other variants for a true comparison. I would imagine the next step on my turbo journey would be to convert it to two wheel drive, but I don't feel inclined to do so yet.
fesuvious said:
Get your driving spot-on and flow will arrive no matter if you're behind the wheel of a 1978 Bedford TK or a Lotus.
Your starting post on this thread shows, it's you.
I accept and agree. This is good in a way. I replied earlier before reading your post, the thread was delayed a bit. Bugger the vain suspension, I need to do a driving course for certain. Not crossed my mind, oddly. Can you be a bit more specific in who you recommend... Sounds great fun!Your starting post on this thread shows, it's you.
It takes a bit of time to bond with a 996 Turbo. The flow you talk of is absolutely achievable, and I love the car for it, you just have to learn to use its strengths and weaknesses. Fast in, hard on the brakes, then back on the gas as you turn in to keep the balance on the rear of the car especially mid corner. I actually enjoy feeling the back end squirm around a bit between heavy braking and acceleration. The softer stock suspension allows it, putting something firmer on will only increase its abilities further and hide the cars characteristics
All imo of course, I’m far from a driving god, but I love the way a Turbo feels on country lane, even more so when it’s wet and shows just how far above my skill level it’s capable of.
All imo of course, I’m far from a driving god, but I love the way a Turbo feels on country lane, even more so when it’s wet and shows just how far above my skill level it’s capable of.
Edited by shantybeater on Wednesday 20th May 22:29
Thanks for this. I’d be glad to watch a video, possibly in-car, of a turbo being hustled hard.
Does this require adept heel and toe? ie making sure you are in the right ratio the moment you are off the brakes and on the gas, necessitating a shift down when braking? Some of the driver training vids seem determinedly against this, but although complicating matters, h&t does make sense timing wise. I am not especially adept at it. It has been made harder by a more hair trigger throttle now back from 9E. When I was taught to drive it was still at a time when engine braking was encouraged. I remember having lengthy debates with the instructor and my dad about the merits and demerits of this. Same with ABS which was becoming mainstream in cars and meant cadence braking was less relevant.
Also, how relevant is trail braking on turn in? Seems like a recipe to get it very wrong, in my opinion. This seems to be done in 911s by experienced pros but may be harder and less relevant in a turbo, which is heavy, more powerful and has more grip out of the corner.
Does this require adept heel and toe? ie making sure you are in the right ratio the moment you are off the brakes and on the gas, necessitating a shift down when braking? Some of the driver training vids seem determinedly against this, but although complicating matters, h&t does make sense timing wise. I am not especially adept at it. It has been made harder by a more hair trigger throttle now back from 9E. When I was taught to drive it was still at a time when engine braking was encouraged. I remember having lengthy debates with the instructor and my dad about the merits and demerits of this. Same with ABS which was becoming mainstream in cars and meant cadence braking was less relevant.
Also, how relevant is trail braking on turn in? Seems like a recipe to get it very wrong, in my opinion. This seems to be done in 911s by experienced pros but may be harder and less relevant in a turbo, which is heavy, more powerful and has more grip out of the corner.
I find trail braking quite natural in my 996 (non turbo), it's just how i drive and seems to suit the car. I also h&t if I'm on a spirited blast but only because i enjoy doing it, i don't think it's really necessary especially as all my downshifting is done in a straight line ahead of the corner. I would have thought with a lighter flywheel, h&t is even less critical.
Maybe you just need to look further ahead to anticipate what's coming up. It's difficulty to have any flow if you're just looking in front of your nose. Especially if your car just got quicker, you may need to readjust how your brain and eyes scan the road ahead.
Maybe you just need to look further ahead to anticipate what's coming up. It's difficulty to have any flow if you're just looking in front of your nose. Especially if your car just got quicker, you may need to readjust how your brain and eyes scan the road ahead.
Edited by skinny on Thursday 21st May 13:15
ScienceTeacher said:
Thanks for this. I’d be glad to watch a video, possibly in-car, of a turbo being hustled hard.
Does this require adept heel and toe? ie making sure you are in the right ratio the moment you are off the brakes and on the gas, necessitating a shift down when braking? Some of the driver training vids seem determinedly against this, but although complicating matters, h&t does make sense timing wise. I am not especially adept at it. It has been made harder by a more hair trigger throttle now back from 9E. When I was taught to drive it was still at a time when engine braking was encouraged. I remember having lengthy debates with the instructor and my dad about the merits and demerits of this. Same with ABS which was becoming mainstream in cars and meant cadence braking was less relevant.
Also, how relevant is trail braking on turn in? Seems like a recipe to get it very wrong, in my opinion. This seems to be done in 911s by experienced pros but may be harder and less relevant in a turbo, which is heavy, more powerful and has more grip out of the corner.
I'm not sure if this is relevant because the car is a Tiptronic. However it is on stock suspension and PS2 tyres in this video. https://youtu.be/IiJAXjvBjzIDoes this require adept heel and toe? ie making sure you are in the right ratio the moment you are off the brakes and on the gas, necessitating a shift down when braking? Some of the driver training vids seem determinedly against this, but although complicating matters, h&t does make sense timing wise. I am not especially adept at it. It has been made harder by a more hair trigger throttle now back from 9E. When I was taught to drive it was still at a time when engine braking was encouraged. I remember having lengthy debates with the instructor and my dad about the merits and demerits of this. Same with ABS which was becoming mainstream in cars and meant cadence braking was less relevant.
Also, how relevant is trail braking on turn in? Seems like a recipe to get it very wrong, in my opinion. This seems to be done in 911s by experienced pros but may be harder and less relevant in a turbo, which is heavy, more powerful and has more grip out of the corner.
Best lap starts at around 8.0 minutes or so. Please ignore the faux-pas on the first lap, was not paying attention at the first corner. Oops!! Hopefully the video will convey how hard you can lean on a stock turbo chassis. You will notice that I am slower on right handers than left, that is due to a lack of support from the sports seats and my physical situation.
The cars do have a playful chassis, but you have to get it set up before it reveals itself. But I agree with Slippy, it is no C2 or GT3....
Assuming your turbo is around 2003 the suspension if not been replaced is 17:years old so would benefit from a refresh ,I never had any rolling or pitching on mine, round country lanes the car was more capable than me just immense grip and surging out of the corners if you got into 3rd gear may have ended up in jail .
Thanks for this. I do think these guys are excellent. Sounds like it could be another big old bill, though. Looking at B6 dampers and sensible springs. I suspect other suspension bits and bobs will needs replacing. I don’t track it and so just want a slightly more nailed down ride. Some additional compliance on British roads would also be a plus. Again, I think McLarens are great at this from what I’ve read.
ScienceTeacher said:
Thanks for this. I do think these guys are excellent. Sounds like it could be another big old bill, though. Looking at B6 dampers and sensible springs. I suspect other suspension bits and bobs will needs replacing. I don’t track it and so just want a slightly more nailed down ride. Some additional compliance on British roads would also be a plus. Again, I think McLarens are great at this from what I’ve read.
Chris and Pete will fulfill all your briefs, specifically the extra compliance and nailed down ride bits, hard to believe, but it will feel a very different, almost new car when they're done with it.It won't be cheap, but the results will be worthwhile, and it'll be more engaging and characterful, than a 570S.
skinny said:
I find trail braking quite natural in my 996 (non turbo), it's just how i drive and seems to suit the car. I also h&t if I'm on a spirited blast but only because i enjoy doing it, i don't think it's really necessary especially as all my downshifting is done in a straight line ahead of the corner. I would have thought with a lighter flywheel, h&t is even less critical.
Maybe you just need to look further ahead to anticipate what's coming up. It's difficulty to have any flow if you're just looking in front of your nose. Especially if your car just got quicker, you may need to readjust how your brain and eyes scan the road ahead.
Very good points - assuming that there is nothing fundamentally wrong with your car's set-up,Maybe you just need to look further ahead to anticipate what's coming up. It's difficulty to have any flow if you're just looking in front of your nose. Especially if your car just got quicker, you may need to readjust how your brain and eyes scan the road ahead.
Edited by skinny on Thursday 21st May 13:15
I'd also focus on your driving technique. As skinny mentions, it all starts with your eyes (a good coach will first check where you are looking at whilst driving to determine your level of ability). You need to look far ahead and anticipate where the road is going - e.g. checking out tree positions that indicate where the road and a turn is leading towards (i.e. "imagine the corner" when it's a blind one). Once you do that you can tailor your speed much more to what is feasible/appropriate and avoid doing too many (abrupt) inputs that unsettle the car. You will also be surprised how much more speed you can carry safely through corners and how little steering input you really need
H&T would not be an immediate priority IMO. It is sufficient that during multiple downshifts whilst breaking before corners you go quickly down through the individual gears with only lightly bringing the clutch in to keep engine revs up - and it helps you avoid getting by mistake too low a gear and creating costly engine issues. As long as you get this done before the corner whilst largely in a straight line, you are fine and don't need any H&T. You can practice the latter once you feel comfortable with the other techniques.
911s lend themselves for trail braking to counter inherent understeer from the rear-engined weight balance. Start practicing on a familiar road where you have good visibility and don't run the risk of being caught out in the corner itself. Don't overdo it initially
HTH and enjoy your car!
When you remap a car from experience the tendency is to drive the car over aggressively to see if the circa 25% extra power under the curve 9e give you is worth it. You had car that would do 0-100-0 mph 16-17 secs. It will now do this in 12 -13 secs. It takes time to re adjust thats all. My 997 turbo by Nine Excellence. What a car! 0-100-0 in smudge under 10 secs if you can pedal 
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