993 C2S vs 993 C4S
Discussion
Hi All,
Apart from the obvious RWD vs 4WD are there any other major differences between the 2 versions of 993s?
I read somewhere that the 4WD system adds 100kg to the weight of the car. This together with the increased transmissions losses must make the C4S slightly slower. Is that the compromise for having the safety of 4WD?
Does anybody know how the Porsche 4WD system works? Is it mainly RWD biased until it determines slip? What sort of percentages of drive are transfered? Is it really necessary to have 4WD in a 993 since the general concensus is towards RWD for pure sportscars? Are the 2 cars a noticably different to drive? Is one system more proned to problems than the other?
Are these cars only available in certain colours? I have only ever seen a handful of colours for these models and these seemed quite conservative, eg. black, blue, arena red. Not that I want an outrageous colour like yellow but I just want to know what is out there.
Thanks,
MaKS
Apart from the obvious RWD vs 4WD are there any other major differences between the 2 versions of 993s?
I read somewhere that the 4WD system adds 100kg to the weight of the car. This together with the increased transmissions losses must make the C4S slightly slower. Is that the compromise for having the safety of 4WD?
Does anybody know how the Porsche 4WD system works? Is it mainly RWD biased until it determines slip? What sort of percentages of drive are transfered? Is it really necessary to have 4WD in a 993 since the general concensus is towards RWD for pure sportscars? Are the 2 cars a noticably different to drive? Is one system more proned to problems than the other?
Are these cars only available in certain colours? I have only ever seen a handful of colours for these models and these seemed quite conservative, eg. black, blue, arena red. Not that I want an outrageous colour like yellow but I just want to know what is out there.
Thanks,
MaKS
Hi,
Right.
C2S is wide body (30kg more than C2) and split rear grille whch is colour coded. Also had Turbo front and rear bumpers.
C4S is wide body and 4wd (80kg more than C2, 30kg more than C4).
Also had turbo front and rear bumpers, but crucially comes with turbo brakes, turbo look-a-like wheels (18" turbo twist), and turbo suspension.
There's really no difference in acceleration or top speed between C2, C4, C2S and C4S. What little difference there may be on a stopwatch is negligible in the real world.
Porsche 4wd system is 95% rear and 5% front. Viscous coupling system. When rear slip is apparent, the viscous coupling transfers up to 40% front and 60% rear, so increasing traction under power whilst maitaining rwd bias.
Very hard to feel the difference between C2 and C4 on a dry road, even pushing hard. C2S to C4S is not comparable because of suspension differences.
Colours? Anything you like, though of course some were more popular than others (dark blues, silver, black).
Search the threads, you'll find lots of info about C2S/C4S comparisons and questions.
VS
Right.
C2S is wide body (30kg more than C2) and split rear grille whch is colour coded. Also had Turbo front and rear bumpers.
C4S is wide body and 4wd (80kg more than C2, 30kg more than C4).
Also had turbo front and rear bumpers, but crucially comes with turbo brakes, turbo look-a-like wheels (18" turbo twist), and turbo suspension.
There's really no difference in acceleration or top speed between C2, C4, C2S and C4S. What little difference there may be on a stopwatch is negligible in the real world.
Porsche 4wd system is 95% rear and 5% front. Viscous coupling system. When rear slip is apparent, the viscous coupling transfers up to 40% front and 60% rear, so increasing traction under power whilst maitaining rwd bias.
Very hard to feel the difference between C2 and C4 on a dry road, even pushing hard. C2S to C4S is not comparable because of suspension differences.
Colours? Anything you like, though of course some were more popular than others (dark blues, silver, black).
Search the threads, you'll find lots of info about C2S/C4S comparisons and questions.
VS
I'm a new owner of a 993 2S (hopefully will post pics at some point!) and had the same questions as you when I was looking.
My conclusions:
*Hardly any difference on the road. IMO you need to drive a 993 2S like complete prat to lose it, especially in the dry. 993 2S had more feel from the steering IMO. The 4 is little more surefooted in the wet though.
*Unless you taking your car on the track alot the 2's brakes are more than adequate for road use. Big reds do look nice though!
*2 has a slighly bigger boot!
*Running costs more on a 4, eg. insurance, brake/clutch replacements.
*2S is a rarer car as it was only around for 1 year. 4S had a longer production run.
*2S had some neat details - colour coded split rear spoiler, graphite dash clock bezels/gear knob/handbrake/sills and Carrera S on the rev counter.
At the end of the day make your judgement on how it drives/history/condition. They're both fine cars, so unless you've got a massive preference for one over another buy the best you can!
>> Edited by 993_2s on Sunday 3rd July 12:01
My conclusions:
*Hardly any difference on the road. IMO you need to drive a 993 2S like complete prat to lose it, especially in the dry. 993 2S had more feel from the steering IMO. The 4 is little more surefooted in the wet though.
*Unless you taking your car on the track alot the 2's brakes are more than adequate for road use. Big reds do look nice though!
*2 has a slighly bigger boot!
*Running costs more on a 4, eg. insurance, brake/clutch replacements.
*2S is a rarer car as it was only around for 1 year. 4S had a longer production run.
*2S had some neat details - colour coded split rear spoiler, graphite dash clock bezels/gear knob/handbrake/sills and Carrera S on the rev counter.
At the end of the day make your judgement on how it drives/history/condition. They're both fine cars, so unless you've got a massive preference for one over another buy the best you can!
>> Edited by 993_2s on Sunday 3rd July 12:01
Very helpful guys, thanks.
I think I will try to go for the 4S which was my preference before I started asking questions, but I will not count a good 2S out.
So the 2S does not have the turbo suspension either?
What wheels does it come with as standard? I was also told it does not have a/c as standard.
I am confused with the brakes.
Are the "big reds" the same as the turbo brakes? I'm guessing 4 piston and drilled. And the 2S does not have these turbo brakes?
I think I will try to go for the 4S which was my preference before I started asking questions, but I will not count a good 2S out.
So the 2S does not have the turbo suspension either?
What wheels does it come with as standard? I was also told it does not have a/c as standard.
I am confused with the brakes.
Are the "big reds" the same as the turbo brakes? I'm guessing 4 piston and drilled. And the 2S does not have these turbo brakes?
Hi,
I bought a 4S 18 months back and have enjoyed every second of ownership.
The 18" wheels on the 2S have hollow spokes as opposed to the solid 18" ones on the 4S.
Brakes on the 4S are indeed the turbo (big reds) and whilst the standard brakes are very competent the upgrade path is eye-poppingly expensive should you decide you need more than just red resprayed calipers.
The 4S suspension is again from the turbo and the entire package performs superbly and a weekend at the Ring allowed me to stretch the cars legs without it biting as hard as it had every right too when I completely screwed up one corner...
All I would like to say is that Domster is a remarkably calm person in the face of a few armfuls of opposite lock and a spell on the grass.
Oops.
Anyway, both 2S and 4S will be better cars than most people will ever have need for and a test drive off of a racetrack is unlikely to reveal much in the way of real world differences.
Alan makes a very valid point though and that is that the prices of high mile Turbo 4's are comparable to a tidy 4S. The 4S suits me but are you really sure you want the show without all the go...
The 4S sounds nicer though.
Enjoy choosing but don't rule out the Turbo 4 until you have driven one.
Regards,
Ian D
>> Edited by ian_dorrian on Sunday 3rd July 18:39
I bought a 4S 18 months back and have enjoyed every second of ownership.
The 18" wheels on the 2S have hollow spokes as opposed to the solid 18" ones on the 4S.
Brakes on the 4S are indeed the turbo (big reds) and whilst the standard brakes are very competent the upgrade path is eye-poppingly expensive should you decide you need more than just red resprayed calipers.
The 4S suspension is again from the turbo and the entire package performs superbly and a weekend at the Ring allowed me to stretch the cars legs without it biting as hard as it had every right too when I completely screwed up one corner...
All I would like to say is that Domster is a remarkably calm person in the face of a few armfuls of opposite lock and a spell on the grass.
Oops.
Anyway, both 2S and 4S will be better cars than most people will ever have need for and a test drive off of a racetrack is unlikely to reveal much in the way of real world differences.
Alan makes a very valid point though and that is that the prices of high mile Turbo 4's are comparable to a tidy 4S. The 4S suits me but are you really sure you want the show without all the go...
The 4S sounds nicer though.
Enjoy choosing but don't rule out the Turbo 4 until you have driven one.
Regards,
Ian D
>> Edited by ian_dorrian on Sunday 3rd July 18:39
I've had the 4S and the turbo (in fact i drive the turbo every day now) and the 4S sounds much better, but the turbo's mid range is on a whole different level.
Look, if you find the right car, whether it's a 2S, 4S, or turbo, you're going to be very very happy
VS
just a point to note, the 2S came with 17's as standard, but as Ian said if you ticked the 18" upgrade box then the 18's you got were hollow spokes like the turbo
Look, if you find the right car, whether it's a 2S, 4S, or turbo, you're going to be very very happy
VS
just a point to note, the 2S came with 17's as standard, but as Ian said if you ticked the 18" upgrade box then the 18's you got were hollow spokes like the turbo
MaKSiNG said:
Very helpful guys, thanks.
I think I will try to go for the 4S which was my preference before I started asking questions, but I will not count a good 2S out.
So the 2S does not have the turbo suspension either?
What wheels does it come with as standard? I was also told it does not have a/c as standard.
I am confused with the brakes.
Are the "big reds" the same as the turbo brakes? I'm guessing 4 piston and drilled. And the 2S does not have these turbo brakes?
The 2S has lowered suspension (over a normal Carrera 2) but not to Turbo spec, which is what the 4S has.
I think AC was standard on the 2S - all the ones I've seen have it.
Big reds are the Turbo brakes. They have bigger calipers painted red and slightly larger discs. Carrera 2S has normal Carrera calipers (black). These are 4 piston, and the discs, like all 993s are vented and drilled all round.
4S also got full leather - dash and door trim as well as the seats in leather.
Standard wheels on the 2S were 17" Cups, however most had the 18" turbo wheels fitted. As has been mentioned the 2S 18" wheels are the hollow "technology" versions - same as the Turbo. The 4S had 18" wheels as standard but strangely these are solid spoke.
MaKSiNG said:
So the 2S does not have the turbo suspension either?
What wheels does it come with as standard? I was also told it does not have a/c as standard.
The 4S and 2S could be ordered with a choice of standard suspension or M030 option. The M030 is lower than standard and only slightly stiffer. The front springs on M030 are identical to Turbo fronts, but the rear M030 springs are slightly softer than Turbo rears (as the turbo rear weighs more). Front sway bar for M030 = turbo, but non-M030 is smaller. Rear sway bar on the Turbo is bigger than M030 rear bar, which is bigger than non-M030 rear bar.
pfecteau said:
The 4S and 2S could be ordered with a choice of standard suspension or M030 option.
Sorry, beg to differ, the ROW (non North American market) C4S had suspension that is almost exactly the same as the Turbo's AS STANDARD, and the C2S had standard C2 suspension AS STANDARD.
You will never find a ROW C4S with C4 ride height, whereas a good proportion of ROW C2S are still at standard C2 ride height (though lots got 18's and lowered suspension, which is very nice).
VS
993_2s said:
I'm a new owner of a 993 2S
you need to drive a 993 2S like complete prat to lose it, especially in the dry.
>> Edited by 993_2s on Sunday 3rd July 12:01
Especially being the operative word here, new owner being the operative phrase.
I'd be interested in hearing about your experiences of a C2S in anything other than perfect conditions. Unless your driving skills are similar to Mario Andretti or you drive like a nun the C2S is a big handful in bad conditions. Ask my insurance company!
Fair point Simon, my experiences of the 993 S are pretty limited at the moment. I've driven it alot in the wet though and it feels a bit more nervous taking r/bouts, but I just take it easy! To be honest I'm happy going easy in the wet and then driving a little more enthusiastically when conditions allow. I still maintain you've got to be going pretty quickly on the wrong roads to lose it. What happened in your accident?
How much easier to drive is the C4 in the wet??
>> Edited by 993_2s on Tuesday 5th July 18:44
>> Edited by 993_2s on Tuesday 5th July 18:45
How much easier to drive is the C4 in the wet??
>> Edited by 993_2s on Tuesday 5th July 18:44
>> Edited by 993_2s on Tuesday 5th July 18:45
993_2s said:
Fair point Simon, my experiences of the 993 S are pretty limited at the moment. I've driven it alot in the wet though and it feels a bit more nervous taking r/bouts, but I just take it easy! To be honest I'm happy going easy in the wet and then driving a little more enthusiastically when conditions allow. I still maintain you've got to be going pretty quickly on the wrong roads to lose it. What happened in your accident?
How much easier to drive is the C4 in the wet??
>> Edited by 993_2s on Tuesday 5th July 18:44
>> Edited by 993_2s on Tuesday 5th July 18:45
Other than in snow and ice a 911 will not lose rear traction if driven slowly. I once drove a 964 at about 5mph and got lift off oversteer, but it was in heavy snow and range rovers were hitting kerbs.
It sounds like you're driving your 911 exactly the same way I do now, ie unless it's dry take it steady. Don't get me wrong I drove the 993 fast in the wet and was quite impressed right up to the point...........
The ironic thing are the quotes that ring round my head from C2S owners who are very skilled drivers; "That is a truly dangerous car." and "Whatever you do get ready for it to bite you in the a**e when you least expect it.". The funniest was a new owner who bought a car from a good friend "I want my money back on this car, it's faulty. I'm trying to get to Edinburgh on the A1 and it keeps pointing me towards London.".
Bear in mind (thanks LeeME3) that I had 18" turbo look alloys on the car which make things even worse. I drove into a 40mph right hander, turned into the apex with balanced throttle then progressively applied the throttle(ok I nailed it, but nothing I hadn't done in 911s a thousand times). The car accelerated then hit a patch of light mud which some workmen had generously spilt onto the road. The steering went light and I immediately piled on armfuls of opposite lock. I knew what was coming, but couldn't believe how quickly it went sideways. The car skidded along the road and I remember thinking "this is too fast". The mud ended and the read end gripped. The polar moment of intertia was MASSIVE and the car swung out the opposite way, more lock stopped it from spinning, but the car was too sideways and was heading towards a ditch. First the bushes scratched the bumper and I thought "s**t, the paintwork", then the bumper hit the ditch and I thought "s**t, the bodywork", then the car turned over through the ditch and flew through the air upside down, and I thought (honest) "996 next I think". It landed hard on it's roof then rolled and rolled for eternity before I eventually climbed out of the side window. The strength of the car was simply amazing. The roof took the entire initial impact, but the a-pillars were so strong the windscreen didn't even crack.
A good friend, ex-racing driver, and 911 expert analysed the situation and said "You haven't got the skill to cope with an out of shape 911 at that speed. You should've taken your hands and feet off all the controls and let it do whatever it wanted until it straightend and then mashed the brakes.". I asked "What about panic?". He looked blank. Fecking racing drivers.
Hello,
brandnew in this forum, calling you from good old germany.
First at all sorry for my poor english.
Presently I`m on the way to buy a 993 4 S from a guy in spain, but if I take a look to the prices
for a 997, I`m not sure the 993 will be best choice. Be advised the car would be my first porsche at all, and of course its basic presentatation gives the 993 an amazing factor of good old german
technology, last air cooled, cockpit like the 964 and so on.
It seem`s there are some specialist among you, so could you give some facts 993 vers. 997.
Good old air cooled vers. newest technique / garage queen vers. high tech car.... or even
choosing a Cayman S ? So cayman S vers. 993 ?
A further question: buying the car in foreign eu country (France, spain, italy etc.) - are there
any things to be noticed?
Thanks a lot, vielen Dank,
looking forward to hearing any opinions and ideas
Heinrich
brandnew in this forum, calling you from good old germany.
First at all sorry for my poor english.
Presently I`m on the way to buy a 993 4 S from a guy in spain, but if I take a look to the prices
for a 997, I`m not sure the 993 will be best choice. Be advised the car would be my first porsche at all, and of course its basic presentatation gives the 993 an amazing factor of good old german
technology, last air cooled, cockpit like the 964 and so on.
It seem`s there are some specialist among you, so could you give some facts 993 vers. 997.
Good old air cooled vers. newest technique / garage queen vers. high tech car.... or even
choosing a Cayman S ? So cayman S vers. 993 ?
A further question: buying the car in foreign eu country (France, spain, italy etc.) - are there
any things to be noticed?
Thanks a lot, vielen Dank,
looking forward to hearing any opinions and ideas
Heinrich
IMO standard C2 on 17 inch wheels does feel more agile, lighter and ride is better than the 4-wheel drive 993s and particularly the wide-bodied versions. Depends if handling or looks are higher on your priority list (and whether you want to pay the premium for a 2S/4S).
I tried the 993tt as an alternative to a straight C2 but although the straight-line speed was fun it seemed more of a GT/smooth A-road type of car. At least, I had a decent test-drive in one (completely standard) and took it to some nice back roads close to the dealer. The roads were a bit bumpy but I don't think it would have been a problem in my C2. However, the turbo needed constant corrections and seemed to be sniffing out change of camber. Put me off.
I tried the 993tt as an alternative to a straight C2 but although the straight-line speed was fun it seemed more of a GT/smooth A-road type of car. At least, I had a decent test-drive in one (completely standard) and took it to some nice back roads close to the dealer. The roads were a bit bumpy but I don't think it would have been a problem in my C2. However, the turbo needed constant corrections and seemed to be sniffing out change of camber. Put me off.
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