Penske dampers on 996 Cup
Discussion
The old 996 Cup car I have is fitted with lowered/stiffened OEM dampers and springs and is riding a bit high and struggling for grip on cup tyres.
As part of the deal I received, what I believe to be, the original racing Penske dampers/Eibach springs setup all with the remote reservoirs.
Used purely for trackdays, and driving to them, including distant ones at the Ring/Spa/Lemans/Nogaro, the question is will this Penske setup be too harsh or undriveable on the road? Or would it compare to say a GT3 with the JZ setup?
Would I be better selling the Penske setup to replace with something more intermediate?
Any advice would be much appreciated.
Cheers guys,
Andiroo.
As part of the deal I received, what I believe to be, the original racing Penske dampers/Eibach springs setup all with the remote reservoirs.
Used purely for trackdays, and driving to them, including distant ones at the Ring/Spa/Lemans/Nogaro, the question is will this Penske setup be too harsh or undriveable on the road? Or would it compare to say a GT3 with the JZ setup?
Would I be better selling the Penske setup to replace with something more intermediate?
Any advice would be much appreciated.
Cheers guys,
Andiroo.
...want some for my Westfield, just need another mortgage! Hi Andy,
Gordon Campbell in bonny Scotland has Penskes on his Mk1 GT3. He thinks they are rather hard and his hit the bumpstops on some bends......leading to big oversteer. However he was doing something to the dampers to try to sort this. I'll send you an e-mail with his mobile number on so you can speak to him if you like.
Gordon Campbell in bonny Scotland has Penskes on his Mk1 GT3. He thinks they are rather hard and his hit the bumpstops on some bends......leading to big oversteer. However he was doing something to the dampers to try to sort this. I'll send you an e-mail with his mobile number on so you can speak to him if you like.
Cheers guys, and thanks for the compliment Spence 
They do look a seriously cool bit of kit so it would be nice to use them. May well look to see what springs your mate has John and listen to his comments, cheers mate - like you say dom, changing spings is a sensible option if they're too hard.
I believe they are 4-way adjustable so there must be some compromise to be had
Andiroo
They do look a seriously cool bit of kit so it would be nice to use them. May well look to see what springs your mate has John and listen to his comments, cheers mate - like you say dom, changing spings is a sensible option if they're too hard.
I believe they are 4-way adjustable so there must be some compromise to be had
Andiroo
Just spoke to Gordon on the problems with his Penskes - thank mate, very helpful
He hopes to have his setup sorted out in the next week and will give me some feedback on this.
I will need to check with Redline Racing whether they experienced similar probs when these were on my car, but Gordan has confirmed that we can get softer springs to fit these dampers.
From what he says, the real bugger is the nitrogen side of the remote reservoirs - very tricky to get it set right....
Andiroo
He hopes to have his setup sorted out in the next week and will give me some feedback on this.
I will need to check with Redline Racing whether they experienced similar probs when these were on my car, but Gordan has confirmed that we can get softer springs to fit these dampers.
From what he says, the real bugger is the nitrogen side of the remote reservoirs - very tricky to get it set right....
Andiroo
Obviously the Penske (or other) shock absorbers are only dampers. You still need to sort out the spring rates and combinations for each end of the car. It is a combination of the two, (combined with the geometry settings) that dictate how your car will feel on the road. The anti-roll bar settings will also have a large effect on the handling.
To merely have a set of shocks is like giving someone a Nikon D100 and sending them on their merry way, they could still f**k up every shot they take especially given suspension components don`t come with an "auto" option !.
Firstly have the dampers serviced, very easy to do if you know what you`re doing and several people in the country who can do it.
Secondly sort out your spring rates, ride height and geometry settings. A little harder and you need someone who knows what they are doing otherwise you`re going to start going downhill fast.
Then finally you need to engineer the car at the track. Your 3 way adjustable Penske shocks are indeed the business if you know how to use them. Do you know for instance how they have been valved and what might constitute soft, middle and hard settings for low speed bump, high speed bump and rebound.
Unfortunately as with all things in life a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing and setting your car up properly takes a very knowledgable person. Be careful also that once fitted you don`t fall into the trap of trying to use suspension tweaks as an "excuse" for failings in other areas of the car or heaven forbid driver !
A well set up car is an absolute job and a good race engineer gives you the confidence to push the car hard whilst still feeling safe.
Have fun.
Henry
>> Edited by Henry-F on Thursday 7th July 17:19
To merely have a set of shocks is like giving someone a Nikon D100 and sending them on their merry way, they could still f**k up every shot they take especially given suspension components don`t come with an "auto" option !.
Firstly have the dampers serviced, very easy to do if you know what you`re doing and several people in the country who can do it.
Secondly sort out your spring rates, ride height and geometry settings. A little harder and you need someone who knows what they are doing otherwise you`re going to start going downhill fast.
Then finally you need to engineer the car at the track. Your 3 way adjustable Penske shocks are indeed the business if you know how to use them. Do you know for instance how they have been valved and what might constitute soft, middle and hard settings for low speed bump, high speed bump and rebound.
Unfortunately as with all things in life a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing and setting your car up properly takes a very knowledgable person. Be careful also that once fitted you don`t fall into the trap of trying to use suspension tweaks as an "excuse" for failings in other areas of the car or heaven forbid driver !
A well set up car is an absolute job and a good race engineer gives you the confidence to push the car hard whilst still feeling safe.
Have fun.
Henry
>> Edited by Henry-F on Thursday 7th July 17:19
Thanks for the advice Henry, my thoughts exactly
Wait to see if Gordon, the only other person we know as having a racing Penske setup, can iron out his problems for road/track combined, then hopefully use the same springs/settings and guys he is using to sort mine. He was having problems with the shaft length, the car sitting too low, and the dampers not working in combo with the springs.
I think the benefit I may have is that RLR have been working on this car for some time when the Penske stuff was on, so there should be some good feedback from them as well, especially for the good track setting - they reckoned it was fine for the road, just a bit too hard for their taste.
From the feedback here though, it certainly seems worthwhile investing a bit of time and effort to get them sorted and back on the car.
Cheers guys,
Andiroo
Wait to see if Gordon, the only other person we know as having a racing Penske setup, can iron out his problems for road/track combined, then hopefully use the same springs/settings and guys he is using to sort mine. He was having problems with the shaft length, the car sitting too low, and the dampers not working in combo with the springs.
I think the benefit I may have is that RLR have been working on this car for some time when the Penske stuff was on, so there should be some good feedback from them as well, especially for the good track setting - they reckoned it was fine for the road, just a bit too hard for their taste.
From the feedback here though, it certainly seems worthwhile investing a bit of time and effort to get them sorted and back on the car.
Cheers guys,
Andiroo
Andy,
Henry's spot-on with advice about setup, very easy to go tail-chasing, as we did on teh hillclimb/sprint westie, drivers perceptions indicated one thing, which naturally leads to you to do "x", which as it happened couldnt have been more different, and that was only on 2-way adjustable's
We then took car to a place up in Thetford near Snetterton (damned if i can remember their name...they do Indy car chassis setups, they set up the Bentley Speed-8's the week before Le Mans a couple of years back and they helped Caterham with the CSR inboard suspension....grrr...what're they called?
)
Anyway, they use a static rig, bit like a 4-poster lift (except at ground level, with a big setup pit beneath), place car over all 4 plates, then "shake" the car in a controlled cycle of frequencies. From this (via many probes/sensors and strain gauges) they can monitor bump/rebound/float, etc, etc...saving hundreds of miles on a track, it's controlled, ie no tyre temp or wearing issues, weather, driver fatigue, changing car weight, and thus completely repeatable. Steve also hired the services of an Ohlins engineer (presumably Penske offer a similar service) to re-valve and tinker with the dampers and spring-rates after each test. Not that cheap, of course, but a lot less than paying track fees/tyres/poss car damage, yada-yada....and very much quicker, we were there for a day.
What we ended up with was a whole load of very pretty coloured plots (!!), and a car that won the next round of the championship. It's a good starting point which can then be tweaked to suit diff venues. We were amazed just how far we were from it ever being right, after all, we're only club level, not pro's, so no luxury of spending endless days tramping around a track. Of course, there's other variables that cant be measured this way, like power delivery influencing handling.
If I think of their name, I'll post it up..it's in issue #80 of Evo, p71 has a pic...they mention "Multimatic" but sure it was something like Chassis Dynamics. Hope this helps...Spen
Henry's spot-on with advice about setup, very easy to go tail-chasing, as we did on teh hillclimb/sprint westie, drivers perceptions indicated one thing, which naturally leads to you to do "x", which as it happened couldnt have been more different, and that was only on 2-way adjustable's
We then took car to a place up in Thetford near Snetterton (damned if i can remember their name...they do Indy car chassis setups, they set up the Bentley Speed-8's the week before Le Mans a couple of years back and they helped Caterham with the CSR inboard suspension....grrr...what're they called?
) Anyway, they use a static rig, bit like a 4-poster lift (except at ground level, with a big setup pit beneath), place car over all 4 plates, then "shake" the car in a controlled cycle of frequencies. From this (via many probes/sensors and strain gauges) they can monitor bump/rebound/float, etc, etc...saving hundreds of miles on a track, it's controlled, ie no tyre temp or wearing issues, weather, driver fatigue, changing car weight, and thus completely repeatable. Steve also hired the services of an Ohlins engineer (presumably Penske offer a similar service) to re-valve and tinker with the dampers and spring-rates after each test. Not that cheap, of course, but a lot less than paying track fees/tyres/poss car damage, yada-yada....and very much quicker, we were there for a day.
What we ended up with was a whole load of very pretty coloured plots (!!), and a car that won the next round of the championship. It's a good starting point which can then be tweaked to suit diff venues. We were amazed just how far we were from it ever being right, after all, we're only club level, not pro's, so no luxury of spending endless days tramping around a track. Of course, there's other variables that cant be measured this way, like power delivery influencing handling.
If I think of their name, I'll post it up..it's in issue #80 of Evo, p71 has a pic...they mention "Multimatic" but sure it was something like Chassis Dynamics. Hope this helps...Spen
Cheers Spen, you're right and it does confirm what Henry was saying.
What would be nice is to get an base setting from Gordon/RLR on a decent road/track combined setup, then spend a day or two with 'experts' and push it a bit further from there and maybe adjust trackside when I need to.
From what I've read from the GT3 guys posts, something between Glenn Mc's and Steve Rance's setup would be my goal.....
Again, thanks for your input.
Andiroo
>> Edited by Andiroo on Friday 8th July 10:22
What would be nice is to get an base setting from Gordon/RLR on a decent road/track combined setup, then spend a day or two with 'experts' and push it a bit further from there and maybe adjust trackside when I need to.
From what I've read from the GT3 guys posts, something between Glenn Mc's and Steve Rance's setup would be my goal.....
Again, thanks for your input.
Andiroo
>> Edited by Andiroo on Friday 8th July 10:22
Spen/Henry cheers guys, that IS the way to do it
We have new front uprights/bearings/carriers, along with the 6 pot Brembos front, 4 pot rears, 360mm racing discs (got 6 sets so it doesn't matter if the grooved last longer) and the newly dynoed Penske dampers 750lb rear 475 front, even got the graphs from the dyno which looks like a spider being tortured with 12volts.............. she now sits quite low and looks the bollox, with 3.5degrees neg camber front and 3 degrees rear.
Cool.............
and the Penske/Brembo's on these rear shots look cool,
So to Croft on Sunday. Don from Competition Engineering came with in order to check the initial settings he dialled in. First two sessions went OK, turn in was sharp as a pin, the brakes felt superb, and we started playing with tyre pressures.
Third session and with Don in the passenger seat, he reckoned some fine adjustment was needed, both on suspension and tyres. It did feel a bit 'loose' at the rear, especially on the JC Esses, but still ok I thought. Back to the pits and 20mins later we were out again. All I can say is WOW! I have never felt something drive as 'complete' as this. Not only is turn-in pin sharp, but the rear follows suit with only a hint of controllable understeer - talk about confidence inspiring......
By the early afternoon session we had the Cup tyres down to 22/23 degrees cold, which worked out at 32 hot once she got going. The tyre wear was even and full across the width, so everything ok there.
All in all it has been worth the wait, next for a further shakedown run at Croft on the 3rd September and then the Ring on the 9th. Since the boat gets back into Hull early on the morning of the 13th, I'm gonna join the guys at Cadwell, then I've got Oulton on the 20th - I'm very very happy indeed...... and a BIG thanks to Don
Andiroo
>> Edited by Andiroo on Thursday 25th August 00:27
>> Edited by Andiroo on Thursday 25th August 00:30
We have new front uprights/bearings/carriers, along with the 6 pot Brembos front, 4 pot rears, 360mm racing discs (got 6 sets so it doesn't matter if the grooved last longer
) and the newly dynoed Penske dampers 750lb rear 475 front, even got the graphs from the dyno which looks like a spider being tortured with 12volts.............. she now sits quite low and looks the bollox, with 3.5degrees neg camber front and 3 degrees rear. Cool.............
and the Penske/Brembo's on these rear shots look cool,
So to Croft on Sunday. Don from Competition Engineering came with in order to check the initial settings he dialled in. First two sessions went OK, turn in was sharp as a pin, the brakes felt superb, and we started playing with tyre pressures.
Third session and with Don in the passenger seat, he reckoned some fine adjustment was needed, both on suspension and tyres. It did feel a bit 'loose' at the rear, especially on the JC Esses, but still ok I thought. Back to the pits and 20mins later we were out again. All I can say is WOW! I have never felt something drive as 'complete' as this. Not only is turn-in pin sharp, but the rear follows suit with only a hint of controllable understeer - talk about confidence inspiring......
By the early afternoon session we had the Cup tyres down to 22/23 degrees cold, which worked out at 32 hot once she got going. The tyre wear was even and full across the width, so everything ok there.
All in all it has been worth the wait, next for a further shakedown run at Croft on the 3rd September and then the Ring on the 9th. Since the boat gets back into Hull early on the morning of the 13th, I'm gonna join the guys at Cadwell, then I've got Oulton on the 20th - I'm very very happy indeed...... and a BIG thanks to Don
Andiroo
>> Edited by Andiroo on Thursday 25th August 00:27
>> Edited by Andiroo on Thursday 25th August 00:30
Hey Andy, impressive stuff. And I am very jealous of all those brake discs you have aquired!
I can't get to Croft on the 3rd as I am at a wedding, but we will have to catch up. Did RLR sort the vibration out? Did the wheels just need balancing? And what did the mapping show? How much BHP? You are fast heading for a 9M supercharger, mate.
Will you be at Croft on 15 October?
I can't get to Croft on the 3rd as I am at a wedding, but we will have to catch up. Did RLR sort the vibration out? Did the wheels just need balancing? And what did the mapping show? How much BHP? You are fast heading for a 9M supercharger, mate.
Will you be at Croft on 15 October?
Cheers mate, got there in the end 
The vibration appears to have been one of the old front discs, she is fine now though - didn't fancy the thought of buying a new set of BBS's if it was a buckled wheel
We haven't even touched the mapping yet, and probably won't until the winter to be honest - with a measly 300bhp she is a whole load of fun, just what I need to better my driving.
Not sure on the blower route - yes it's a cheap 450bhp, but it does seem like cheating to me. Also thinking the reduced rev range may not be suitable for the track?
See you on the 15th mate.
Andiroo
The vibration appears to have been one of the old front discs, she is fine now though - didn't fancy the thought of buying a new set of BBS's if it was a buckled wheel
We haven't even touched the mapping yet, and probably won't until the winter to be honest - with a measly 300bhp she is a whole load of fun, just what I need to better my driving.
Not sure on the blower route - yes it's a cheap 450bhp, but it does seem like cheating to me. Also thinking the reduced rev range may not be suitable for the track?
See you on the 15th mate.
Andiroo
Andy,
Maybe you need to be on the look out for a written off GT3 and nick the engine out of that? Or the engine from a Cup car etc? There would be no easy and cost effective way of uprating the power output from your 3.4 engine.....unless you bang a supercharger on it. It is nice to have a high revvin engine though, I'll give you that.
Mind you, the car will go brilliantly as you have it now, so the first thing to do is keep tracking it and improving your own driving.
Maybe you need to be on the look out for a written off GT3 and nick the engine out of that? Or the engine from a Cup car etc? There would be no easy and cost effective way of uprating the power output from your 3.4 engine.....unless you bang a supercharger on it. It is nice to have a high revvin engine though, I'll give you that.
Mind you, the car will go brilliantly as you have it now, so the first thing to do is keep tracking it and improving your own driving.
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