The Beetle: Where To Go From Here?
Discussion
I have never been in such a turmoil as at present.
The recent VMax VIII at Brunters once again demonstrated that even with 543 bhp and around 740Nm torque, whilst the acceleration has certainly [i]seared[/i] to semi acceptable levels, the final speed through the traps is still lagging hopelessly in the mid-180s.
This is simply unnacceptable.
At the same time, through sheer aerodynamic superiority, even slightly pumped 996 Turbos were casually romping through several mph faster: I think Daz retained his standard 3-4 mph advantage (which staggers me given the additional power the beetle now [i]does[/i] have) whilst Rods and the DMS mobile were putting in 191s with 500 bhp or so 996 Turbo variants.
As the day became ever hotter, the Turbo times dropped but from what Rods was telling me, it seemed that at that point, we two were certainly posting similar times, about 181-182 - so fractionally encouraging for the beetle.
All this without the GT2-R(uf) contingent and for the record, PG's SL65 AMG (650 bhp?) was doing 190+ all day...
Now, forgetting the minor reliability issues I'm having at the moment - some of which may be legacy issues relating to perhaps, badly dispensed advice (possibly including actual harm being caused by the larger [profoundly [i]unnecessary[/i]] intercooler) - the overall feel of the car is pretty good: when pressing on, it delivers a hit I genuinely suspect might be hard to replicate and the roads around Brunters continued to confirm this to me, despite my inability to actually drive properly. In such instances, it has something like just the correct amount of rawness.
But that hasn't stopped me thinking about the PSM cars: even forgetting current top speed issues, I'm battling conflicting emotions on which version I prefer: in the beetle, I loved small dollops of tail wagging through the slow-medium corners, the sense of some drift through the faster ones but then again, the almost Japanese Banzaidom of the PSM dance class is a liberty-allower par excellence and I just don't buy into this 'purist' diatribe that this is somehow too easy...then again, that's almost certainly my limited ability shining through and in time, maybe I'll agree with the flat earthers.
Whatever, a 996 Turbo means I could take the family for days out in relative comfort and press on where necessary in the truest GT sense of the application. I could ditch the M5 and commute with equal ease in something easily more devastating. With the change I could get The Boss an insanely cheap ML55 AMG and take all our holidaying clobber to France in comfort and when they're all dozed off, sneak in a cheeky 130 mph cruise, secure in the knowledge that whilst this is far from the definitive 4x4 wastral, it at least features an heroic lump of torqulean substance up front. I could also wear shades and play 50 Cent whilst mumbling into a bandana. How wiggy jiggy.
Then again, you can't escape the illogic of the emotional attachment and frankly, wads of wonga poured mindlessly away [i]on[/i] the beetle; in for a penny and all that...
So, do I finally throw in the towel and grow up or, steadfastly deny the tedious inevitability of even more humiliation at the hands of the new, 530 bhp 997 X50 and opt for the nuclear option of something utterly unique, grossly cost-ineffective but enormous, deranged fun - some kind of Rennlistian, twin sparked 650-750 bhpowered, carbonized behemoth which at least in the dry, has [b]all[/b] the answers?
Thoughts on a postcard, meglomaniacal tendancies more than welcome.
The Fast & The Not Quite Furious Enough,
DeR. (I have already spoken to Von Belton this morning and his goggles are beginning to steam.)
The recent VMax VIII at Brunters once again demonstrated that even with 543 bhp and around 740Nm torque, whilst the acceleration has certainly [i]seared[/i] to semi acceptable levels, the final speed through the traps is still lagging hopelessly in the mid-180s.
This is simply unnacceptable.
At the same time, through sheer aerodynamic superiority, even slightly pumped 996 Turbos were casually romping through several mph faster: I think Daz retained his standard 3-4 mph advantage (which staggers me given the additional power the beetle now [i]does[/i] have) whilst Rods and the DMS mobile were putting in 191s with 500 bhp or so 996 Turbo variants.
As the day became ever hotter, the Turbo times dropped but from what Rods was telling me, it seemed that at that point, we two were certainly posting similar times, about 181-182 - so fractionally encouraging for the beetle.
All this without the GT2-R(uf) contingent and for the record, PG's SL65 AMG (650 bhp?) was doing 190+ all day...
Now, forgetting the minor reliability issues I'm having at the moment - some of which may be legacy issues relating to perhaps, badly dispensed advice (possibly including actual harm being caused by the larger [profoundly [i]unnecessary[/i]] intercooler) - the overall feel of the car is pretty good: when pressing on, it delivers a hit I genuinely suspect might be hard to replicate and the roads around Brunters continued to confirm this to me, despite my inability to actually drive properly. In such instances, it has something like just the correct amount of rawness.
But that hasn't stopped me thinking about the PSM cars: even forgetting current top speed issues, I'm battling conflicting emotions on which version I prefer: in the beetle, I loved small dollops of tail wagging through the slow-medium corners, the sense of some drift through the faster ones but then again, the almost Japanese Banzaidom of the PSM dance class is a liberty-allower par excellence and I just don't buy into this 'purist' diatribe that this is somehow too easy...then again, that's almost certainly my limited ability shining through and in time, maybe I'll agree with the flat earthers.
Whatever, a 996 Turbo means I could take the family for days out in relative comfort and press on where necessary in the truest GT sense of the application. I could ditch the M5 and commute with equal ease in something easily more devastating. With the change I could get The Boss an insanely cheap ML55 AMG and take all our holidaying clobber to France in comfort and when they're all dozed off, sneak in a cheeky 130 mph cruise, secure in the knowledge that whilst this is far from the definitive 4x4 wastral, it at least features an heroic lump of torqulean substance up front. I could also wear shades and play 50 Cent whilst mumbling into a bandana. How wiggy jiggy.
Then again, you can't escape the illogic of the emotional attachment and frankly, wads of wonga poured mindlessly away [i]on[/i] the beetle; in for a penny and all that...
So, do I finally throw in the towel and grow up or, steadfastly deny the tedious inevitability of even more humiliation at the hands of the new, 530 bhp 997 X50 and opt for the nuclear option of something utterly unique, grossly cost-ineffective but enormous, deranged fun - some kind of Rennlistian, twin sparked 650-750 bhpowered, carbonized behemoth which at least in the dry, has [b]all[/b] the answers?
Thoughts on a postcard, meglomaniacal tendancies more than welcome.
The Fast & The Not Quite Furious Enough,
DeR. (I have already spoken to Von Belton this morning and his goggles are beginning to steam.)
I think, you me and Plotty were pondering about the fact that the game has moved on from the 80's supercar... Clearly the aerodynamics are the issue on the Beetle... is there anything you can do to resolve this..? The 996's and Phat's SL65AMGwhizzbangBiTurboPanzerWagon clearly have an advantage in that area...
In all honesty I think a lot of it depends what you acutally want out of the car. Do you want a fantastic drivers car, and an obscene amount of grunt on the road with the pilgrimage to VMax and a cracking day out... or do you want to chase that last 3mph at VMax, and forget about using the car on the road...?
That aside, you have to consider what sort of emotional attachment you have with the Beetle.. you may want something else now, but can you bear to part with the old girl...?
In all honesty I think a lot of it depends what you acutally want out of the car. Do you want a fantastic drivers car, and an obscene amount of grunt on the road with the pilgrimage to VMax and a cracking day out... or do you want to chase that last 3mph at VMax, and forget about using the car on the road...?
That aside, you have to consider what sort of emotional attachment you have with the Beetle.. you may want something else now, but can you bear to part with the old girl...?
I think your problem is one of gearing, if you still have stock gearbox. You will be well through the peak torque figure you quote and close to the limiter. Drag is clearly helping the 997/996 guys, but the CTR is not exactly supper slippery and that is clearly no slouch.
There is the obvious carbon bonnet/doors/wings exercise but will only help low down acceleration, as drag takes over pretty quickly.
Oh, and never try and justify the expense. You can't place a $ value on madness...
There is the obvious carbon bonnet/doors/wings exercise but will only help low down acceleration, as drag takes over pretty quickly.
Oh, and never try and justify the expense. You can't place a $ value on madness...
I don't think a 996 Turbo is going to be a replacement for your highly individual, highly modified machine, DeR.
Having said that - it will fill its own shoes very nicely indeed, thanks.
Sure - a few extra mph...I hardly think this is a good reason to change - despite your partiality to top speed hoonage at VMAX.
Nope. Change if you want what else it will do for you. The 996 Turbo, like all Porsches of its generation, is actually a car as well as a toy. To my mind this virtually incredible feat of combining otherwise mutually exclusive properties is why one should have one.
Its only failing IMO is that the roof does not come off and that the engine is in the wrong place. But who gives a stuff with ludicrous levels of bhp and subtle character oozing from every surface - with little or none of the downsides that are an inevitability in most other "cars of character".
If I ever chop in my current steed it will be for a Turbo.
Having said that - it will fill its own shoes very nicely indeed, thanks.
Sure - a few extra mph...I hardly think this is a good reason to change - despite your partiality to top speed hoonage at VMAX.
Nope. Change if you want what else it will do for you. The 996 Turbo, like all Porsches of its generation, is actually a car as well as a toy. To my mind this virtually incredible feat of combining otherwise mutually exclusive properties is why one should have one.
Its only failing IMO is that the roof does not come off and that the engine is in the wrong place. But who gives a stuff with ludicrous levels of bhp and subtle character oozing from every surface - with little or none of the downsides that are an inevitability in most other "cars of character".
If I ever chop in my current steed it will be for a Turbo.
Nicely summed up, Herr Podenbaum but I think it's already so far removed from the regular car that I'd not suffer too badly with real (automotive) extremism.
Thing is, I've heard of legendary 993s with monster power and I'm sure the rebuild thing alone is eventually prohibitive but even, say, 10,000 miles life cycle might not be an issue - it may be the case that higher quality components across the board resist the onset of wear to a better degree, too.
Yes, that damned aerodynamic wall is a bastard but neither Caeser or Napolean could Albion smite and I'm cartainly not yielding to some mere force of nature.
Where there's a will, there's horsepower.
Thing is, I've heard of legendary 993s with monster power and I'm sure the rebuild thing alone is eventually prohibitive but even, say, 10,000 miles life cycle might not be an issue - it may be the case that higher quality components across the board resist the onset of wear to a better degree, too.
Yes, that damned aerodynamic wall is a bastard but neither Caeser or Napolean could Albion smite and I'm cartainly not yielding to some mere force of nature.
Where there's a will, there's horsepower.
Don said:
Oh. And are you coming to Silverstone on the 26th?
I completely ballsed up there, Don - I am SO p1ssed off about it.
It had been my intention this year to actually use the tyre guys (Michelin?) and try some slick(er) gummies because last time, despite my ultimate escapade, it was utterly brilliant and my extra power would have made a reasonable difference out of Maggotts and up the straight.
Still, I've got a Porsche driver training thing at MIRA on the 4th of Aug so am looking forward to that.
Re the 996 Turbo Cabriolet - you mean you still haven't?
Podie said:
In all honesty I think a lot of it depends what you acutally want out of the car. Do you want a fantastic drivers car, and an obscene amount of grunt on the road with the pilgrimage to VMax and a cracking day out... or do you want to chase that last 3mph at VMax, and forget about using the car on the road...?
Don't do it. You have a truly spectacular and spine tingling car which you'd be mad to part company with at this stage for the grossly underwhelming pleasure of gaining 5mph down a runway.
Find your local OPC and take a 996tt (pref X50) out for an hour on the sort of roads we all live for. Then tell me you wouldn't miss the characterful excellence of the 993tt.
VS
ultra violent said:
I think your problem is one of gearing, if you still have stock gearbox. You will be well through the peak torque figure you quote and close to the limiter. Drag is clearly helping the 997/996 guys, but the CTR is not exactly supper slippery and that is clearly no slouch.
There is the obvious carbon bonnet/doors/wings exercise but will only help low down acceleration, as drag takes over pretty quickly.
Oh, and never try and justify the expense. You can't place a $ value on madness...
Sir J - let me tell you something - this is all your fault!
Colin was telling me about this total nutter with a penchant for 600 bhp and even rebodying their chosen steed...I really need to work much closer with you, old bean, it seems we share a similar madness.
The real sod for me is that, having spent £10k after £10k (you've been there, I guess), you move forward but it's just so inefficient, which is why Daz can correctly chastise the idiocy at hand...
...But as you say, what price madness? Besides, that gearing question is interesting but ultimately, I, fellow Porkaholics, tweakmeisters everywhere and reality seem to overwhelmingly focus of the fontal area: Colin reckoned the 964 was actually better than the 993 for this whilst the 996's Cd of 0.30 was in a different league again...
Given that you're obviously 'the man,' as it were, what do you think, maybe looking at this as an on-going programme, discussing reliabilty, etc, as well?
{As an aside, I do think the beetle would get near to 200 with a slightly longer run but in view of the latest RUF Turbo-R with 640 bhp, we should be thinking ito at least 210 mph which I recall is where RUF claimed their 993 Turbo-R actually went anyway {narrow bodied? Can't recall.}}
>> Edited by derestrictor on Wednesday 20th July 12:03
Having a wonderful time.
Glad you're not here, you mud chewing piece of filth.
OK, postcard over.
1) You've got lambda sensor issues. Get them sorted as they may have had a detrimental effect on the performance.
2) Get that longer gear to maximise the (frankly ridiculous) torque curve.
Short, succinct answers for a happy Britain.
Your unworthy grunt du Dav,
Greg
Glad you're not here, you mud chewing piece of filth.
OK, postcard over. 1) You've got lambda sensor issues. Get them sorted as they may have had a detrimental effect on the performance.
2) Get that longer gear to maximise the (frankly ridiculous) torque curve.
Short, succinct answers for a happy Britain.
Your unworthy grunt du Dav,
Greg
The key and only key that fits this particular locked door is the planning key. As you say a quick way to spend a lot of money and ultimately not get what you want is a few £10,000 hits. You need to decided what your ultimate goal is, the fit the plan round that.
Mine has been 700+bhp. This was the plan almost 2 years ago, and myself and Colin designed a 2 stage process around it. Stage 1 was prep work, Motec, body work, brakes, cluch, you know the list... But the key to efficiency (money wise) was not to open up the engine twice. What was really missing in the first stage was changing the cams (the stock ones are a big limitting factor on my engine), but by not doing it then saved 2 strip down as a full rebuild would be coming later.
So we embark on phase two in 2 weeks, when we finally sort out the internals. New 3.4 pistons/barrels, new lightened/balanced/shot peened conrods, raceware rod bolts/head studs, custom heads, turbo s cams, complete engine rebuild (top + bottom end), twin plug ignition, full rs interior, new zero-clearance turbo, etc, etc, etc....
Now this is not cheap, but it is cheaper. I still expect to loose out to the slippy/slidy gang, but it is more important to me to be part of the project/evolution.
Ultimately the car will end up as a full time track car, but only once i've bought a 575...
Mine has been 700+bhp. This was the plan almost 2 years ago, and myself and Colin designed a 2 stage process around it. Stage 1 was prep work, Motec, body work, brakes, cluch, you know the list... But the key to efficiency (money wise) was not to open up the engine twice. What was really missing in the first stage was changing the cams (the stock ones are a big limitting factor on my engine), but by not doing it then saved 2 strip down as a full rebuild would be coming later.
So we embark on phase two in 2 weeks, when we finally sort out the internals. New 3.4 pistons/barrels, new lightened/balanced/shot peened conrods, raceware rod bolts/head studs, custom heads, turbo s cams, complete engine rebuild (top + bottom end), twin plug ignition, full rs interior, new zero-clearance turbo, etc, etc, etc....
Now this is not cheap, but it is cheaper. I still expect to loose out to the slippy/slidy gang, but it is more important to me to be part of the project/evolution.
Ultimately the car will end up as a full time track car, but only once i've bought a 575...
DeR,
I wonder if I can add my 2 penneth here. I reckon you should give some thought to thinking outside the box. And that box I think you need to think outside of is the Vmax day.
I have been to 2 Vmax days and I really enjoyed both. I have sat alongside GuyR when he did well over 190 mph in his Nardo engined 630 BHP 996 GT2. I have also had a ride in your own wonderful 993 TT and the Yellowbird and lots of other kit.
However, none of this is anywhere near as exciting or challenging as driving round a real circuit.
You have spent 10s and 10s of thousands on the Beetle. It is terrific. But it is also a great demonstration of the law of diminishing returns. Now that Colin and Wayne have got that amount of power from your car I would consider it perfect. Any more fiddling is over the top and will spoil the car I reckon. The engine will also lose reliability and need lots of rebuilds if you go for more power.
And why do you strive for more power? Well.....you want to go a few more mph quicker down the long straight at Brunters. And that's it really. I'm really trying hard no to sound too cynical, but at the end of the day that's what this is all about. Even if you get 650 BHP out of your car, the only place you could tell the difference is at Brunters....not on the road, not even on a normal race track IMHO.
My view is that you would get far bigger thrills by going on normal track days. Do you still have the Caterham? Anyway, I would buy a 964 or 993 RS, or perhaps a GT3 of GT3RS and get to the great circuits. And then get lessons. And then push your own personal limits. I'm telling you, powering up Eau Rouge at Spa is scary.....it tests you in a way that Vmax at Brunters simply doesn't. Vmax is in no way challenging for the driver, it isn't even scary!
This year I have been to Spa for 2 days, the Ring for a day, Bedofrd twice, Donington, Croft......and I'm doing more very soon. I have had the boy Steve Rance instruct me at Spa and Bedford and I have really speeded up. In fact last time I was at Bedford we were really pushing on and I span the RS 3 times. It was very exciting! Far more exciting than Vmax, no doubt about it.
Only dragsters are meant to go fast in a straight line. Porsche were built for the corners as well.
Only all IMHO of course, and I'm sure you will take my comments in the constructive way they were intended to sound.
I wonder if I can add my 2 penneth here. I reckon you should give some thought to thinking outside the box. And that box I think you need to think outside of is the Vmax day.
I have been to 2 Vmax days and I really enjoyed both. I have sat alongside GuyR when he did well over 190 mph in his Nardo engined 630 BHP 996 GT2. I have also had a ride in your own wonderful 993 TT and the Yellowbird and lots of other kit.
However, none of this is anywhere near as exciting or challenging as driving round a real circuit.
You have spent 10s and 10s of thousands on the Beetle. It is terrific. But it is also a great demonstration of the law of diminishing returns. Now that Colin and Wayne have got that amount of power from your car I would consider it perfect. Any more fiddling is over the top and will spoil the car I reckon. The engine will also lose reliability and need lots of rebuilds if you go for more power.
And why do you strive for more power? Well.....you want to go a few more mph quicker down the long straight at Brunters. And that's it really. I'm really trying hard no to sound too cynical, but at the end of the day that's what this is all about. Even if you get 650 BHP out of your car, the only place you could tell the difference is at Brunters....not on the road, not even on a normal race track IMHO.
My view is that you would get far bigger thrills by going on normal track days. Do you still have the Caterham? Anyway, I would buy a 964 or 993 RS, or perhaps a GT3 of GT3RS and get to the great circuits. And then get lessons. And then push your own personal limits. I'm telling you, powering up Eau Rouge at Spa is scary.....it tests you in a way that Vmax at Brunters simply doesn't. Vmax is in no way challenging for the driver, it isn't even scary!
This year I have been to Spa for 2 days, the Ring for a day, Bedofrd twice, Donington, Croft......and I'm doing more very soon. I have had the boy Steve Rance instruct me at Spa and Bedford and I have really speeded up. In fact last time I was at Bedford we were really pushing on and I span the RS 3 times. It was very exciting! Far more exciting than Vmax, no doubt about it.
Only dragsters are meant to go fast in a straight line. Porsche were built for the corners as well.
Only all IMHO of course, and I'm sure you will take my comments in the constructive way they were intended to sound.
johnny senna said:
DeR,
It was very exciting! Far more exciting than Vmax, no doubt about it.
Only all IMHO of course, and I'm sure you will take my comments in the constructive way they were intended to sound.
yes but next time I'm having snipers with paintball guns hiding in the bushes to pep it up a bit for you Johnny
>> Edited by craigw on Wednesday 20th July 12:57
The 996 is a great truly competent car, you have marvelled at it's prowess in the realtively short time you have spent in it's company,
I do think that after a 3-6 month period you will miss the character of the older car.
However the grass is always greener and it seems to me it really is something you have to get out of your system. I would try to get the X50 if possible.
Somebody may well get the chance to own one of the best 993's I have ever encountered.
I do think that after a 3-6 month period you will miss the character of the older car.
However the grass is always greener and it seems to me it really is something you have to get out of your system. I would try to get the X50 if possible.
Somebody may well get the chance to own one of the best 993's I have ever encountered.
s3am said:
As mentioned already get a longer top gear, or failing that perhaps smear the 'frontal area' with liberal helping of lard?
The last thing your car needs is longer gearing to go faster. This is a misunderstanding of the relationship between power/torque and aerodynamics.
Longer gearing always slows acceleration by putting the car to a point in the curve where you have a lower power figure (unless your car is so low geared that you have already passed the max bhp point and you have run into a declining power curve, which I find unlikely at circa 180mph).
Do not forget that VMax is still an acceleration contest since the truly fast cars like yours (ie 180+mph) are still some way short of their true max speeds (by up to 20mph), due to the insufficient distance. You will therefore get a faster VMax speed if you can either reduce the weight of your car, or increase the cornering speed, even though the theoretical maximum as limited by aerodynamic-drag is unchanged.
Also remember there are no prizes for VMax and the achievement of few extra mph can be very expensive. There will always be a faster car either there already or in the future. As Johnny says, one run of 195 mph is much the same as another when you have done 20, but the thrill of driving a variety of tracks provides much more variety and adrenalin.
Make the car usable for multiple events and get more enjoyment. More power = more expense = more rebuilds. I went down this road with Skylines and got tired with paying for development work, not having the car and continually building new engines, whilst averaging £5k per month expenditure for 2 years.
A car thats not in your garage is a car thats not worth owning..........
Guy
Have some fun around bedford! 
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