Discussion
Having owned both of these cars, need to reflect on my view.. of how these 2 cars stack up against each other.!
The reason for my ownership of this type of car, is to have a reasonably usable day to day car.. + a car that can perform seriously well on track. :D
On a day to day basis, the CSL is a more practical car, by far.. 4 seats proper boot, much more user friendly on road.
The GT3 is definitely usable day to day, but is compromised by interior space, luggage capacity and is more sensitive to harsh road conditions.
As far as looks, prestige and on road presence go, the GT3 eats the CSL. Also I would say that the GT3 is a much better put together machine, and the engine/ gearbox mechanicals feel absolutely bomb proof.
Now to the most important part.. for me anyway.. ;)
Track performance..
In standard form..(CSL with Cups).. lap times with a pro driver are virtually identical, if not quicker with CSL.
One mag article had Brundle at Brands Indy comparing GT3RS against CSL and times were within 0.5 sec..(low 52s).
I think Ring times are similar with CSL being marginally quicker.(with cups).. GT3 on PS.
For reg trackdays, both cars (esp CSL) need brake upgrades, and minor suspension tweaks.
Looking at realistic current values, I would say CSL is late 30s.. GT3 late 50s.
Is the GT3 worth 20k more than CSL to perform the same task..??
Cheers
Rob
The reason for my ownership of this type of car, is to have a reasonably usable day to day car.. + a car that can perform seriously well on track. :D
On a day to day basis, the CSL is a more practical car, by far.. 4 seats proper boot, much more user friendly on road.
The GT3 is definitely usable day to day, but is compromised by interior space, luggage capacity and is more sensitive to harsh road conditions.
As far as looks, prestige and on road presence go, the GT3 eats the CSL. Also I would say that the GT3 is a much better put together machine, and the engine/ gearbox mechanicals feel absolutely bomb proof.
Now to the most important part.. for me anyway.. ;)
Track performance..
In standard form..(CSL with Cups).. lap times with a pro driver are virtually identical, if not quicker with CSL.
One mag article had Brundle at Brands Indy comparing GT3RS against CSL and times were within 0.5 sec..(low 52s).
I think Ring times are similar with CSL being marginally quicker.(with cups).. GT3 on PS.
For reg trackdays, both cars (esp CSL) need brake upgrades, and minor suspension tweaks.
Looking at realistic current values, I would say CSL is late 30s.. GT3 late 50s.
Is the GT3 worth 20k more than CSL to perform the same task..??
Cheers
Rob
www.pistonheads.co.uk/sales/46892.htm
Need to release some funds from car..
Will be looking to purchase CSL
Need to release some funds from car..
Will be looking to purchase CSL
People will pay for the 'image' of the GT3. Only hardcore petrolheads know a CSL when it's behind them on the outside lane of the M4.
Personally, I've been toying with the idea of trying a CSL but am putting it off until I'm really ready to change my current car (I also prefer a manual). I think it would cost as much to run as my current steed to, so why bother ... The GT3 to me is too OTT. IMHO the spoilers ruin the beautiful shape of the 911.
If you do track days every weekend then the GT3 is probably best. But if you're that into it, then why not buy a real track car such as a Radical/Caterfield and have something like an M5 as a daily drive?
Or why not just get a Noble or Sagaris (I dislike the styling of both, just asking).
Personally, I've been toying with the idea of trying a CSL but am putting it off until I'm really ready to change my current car (I also prefer a manual). I think it would cost as much to run as my current steed to, so why bother ... The GT3 to me is too OTT. IMHO the spoilers ruin the beautiful shape of the 911.
If you do track days every weekend then the GT3 is probably best. But if you're that into it, then why not buy a real track car such as a Radical/Caterfield and have something like an M5 as a daily drive?
Or why not just get a Noble or Sagaris (I dislike the styling of both, just asking).
The problem with these comparisons is that the cup tyre is by fasr the biggest individual factor. In testing the RS at Bedford we found that the cup tyre is worth almost 3.5 seconds over the standard rubber. Over the ring it would be a lot more. When fitted with the cup tyre, the CSL can lap at a similar pace than a GT3 Mk1 1. If both cars are fitted with the same rubber there is no contest. It is a pity that BMW felt it appropriate to fit what is essentially a competition tyre to a road car. It certainly gave the car pace but the car is almost totally relying on the physical grip of the tyre rather than tha mechanical grip of the chasis for it's pace.
When both cars have tyre parity, there is a fair bit between them in terms of performance (MK2 and RS GT3's). The GT3 is essentially a road legal racing car after all but pound for pound, the CSL is a performance bargain. I'm still toying with trading in my M5 for one
Steve R
When both cars have tyre parity, there is a fair bit between them in terms of performance (MK2 and RS GT3's). The GT3 is essentially a road legal racing car after all but pound for pound, the CSL is a performance bargain. I'm still toying with trading in my M5 for one
Steve R
Too many electronics on the CSL for my liking. I had one for a couple of months, plus the seats really are awful..
Having said that it is hugely fast on your average British B road, where the GT3 needs hanging on to and spends most of it's time crunching the front splitter/brake ducts.
But with all the fannying around with S3 or S6 / DSC off / M track mode on / Sport button engaged every time you use it compared to the bared to the bones driving experience of the GT3, I know which I prefer.
>> Edited by beaver on Friday 22 July 10:58
Having said that it is hugely fast on your average British B road, where the GT3 needs hanging on to and spends most of it's time crunching the front splitter/brake ducts.
But with all the fannying around with S3 or S6 / DSC off / M track mode on / Sport button engaged every time you use it compared to the bared to the bones driving experience of the GT3, I know which I prefer.
>> Edited by beaver on Friday 22 July 10:58
steve rance said:
The problem with these comparisons is that the cup tyre is by fasr the biggest individual factor. In testing the RS at Bedford we found that the cup tyre is worth almost 3.5 seconds over the standard rubber. Over the ring it would be a lot more. When fitted with the cup tyre, the CSL can lap at a similar pace than a GT3 Mk1 1. If both cars are fitted with the same rubber there is no contest. It is a pity that BMW felt it appropriate to fit what is essentially a competition tyre to a road car. It certainly gave the car pace but the car is almost totally relying on the physical grip of the tyre rather than tha mechanical grip of the chasis for it's pace.
When both cars have tyre parity, there is a fair bit between them in terms of performance (MK2 and RS GT3's). The GT3 is essentially a road legal racing car after all but pound for pound, the CSL is a performance bargain. I'm still toying with trading in my M5 for one
Steve R
I understand that the Cup tyres, equalise the GT3's improved chassis, but wonder how many drivers can really utilise the GT3's potential.
Steve, I know of your reputation.. so therefore you can appreciate the GT3/RS ability, but I guarantee that over 50% of GT3/RS owners never use half of the car's ability.
I've been on trackdays and seen guys in RS, that have been so embarrassingly slow, that I've cringed at having the GT3 badge visible. lol
The other factor for me, is that slinging a £60k+ GT3 around a track, is a lot more worrying than slinging a £35k CSL, especially when the GT3 is heavily financed.
Rob
GT3 Rob said:
The other factor for me, is that slinging a £60k+ GT3 around a track, is a lot more worrying than slinging a £35k CSL, especially when the GT3 is heavily financed.
Now that, I think it the nub!
Personally I wouldn't go on track with a car this valuable uninsured anyway, so its all bit academic.
CSL's a great bit of kit, but not 'special' enough IMO (having driven several and ALMOST bought one - to the point where if the dealer had offered me a sensible trade in on the day I'd have done the deal).
BUT...I know for sure I'd have been bored with it within a month, and would have regretted the lack of 'occasion' when I opened the garage door, jumped in, and fired the thing up. Great car, great handling, great sound...but ultimately it's just an M3 (and there's a new one not too far away - residuals will drop a bit more when that's launched).
If I was looking for a lower value track-capable car, I think I'd opt for a 964RS and get Ninemeister/JZM to tweak it slightly
then again I like a hard ride 
BUT...I know for sure I'd have been bored with it within a month, and would have regretted the lack of 'occasion' when I opened the garage door, jumped in, and fired the thing up. Great car, great handling, great sound...but ultimately it's just an M3 (and there's a new one not too far away - residuals will drop a bit more when that's launched).
If I was looking for a lower value track-capable car, I think I'd opt for a 964RS and get Ninemeister/JZM to tweak it slightly
then again I like a hard ride targarama said:
Only hardcore petrolheads know a CSL when it's behind them on the outside lane of the M4.
That is the most potent reason to get one. Everyone knows it is special as it appears in the mirror, but do not know why. I reckon it is the engine noise bellowing out of the CORRECT place
The only GT3 to EVER pass me on track was Steve Rance's (I think) Blue / white chequered roof RS at Spa? He was on slicks though....and the RS is even more money than the cooking Tatra-esque GT3.
CSL is a bargain at present and has the best engine note and reponse bar none. Make sure you fit decent pads though.
phatgixer said:
.. Make sure you fit decent pads though.
Am collecting car from dealer tomorrow..
Will be looking into APs at some stage, but have heard Pagid yellow + some SRF fluid can sort some of the probs.?
Gixer.. who set your car up.? Have got delaer to supply some new cup tyres, but don't wanna fit them until camber etc is done.
Cheers
Rob
steve rance said:
The problem with these comparisons is that the cup tyre is by fasr the biggest individual factor. In testing the RS at Bedford we found that the cup tyre is worth almost 3.5 seconds over the standard rubber. Over the ring it would be a lot more. When fitted with the cup tyre, the CSL can lap at a similar pace than a GT3 Mk1 1. If both cars are fitted with the same rubber there is no contest. It is a pity that BMW felt it appropriate to fit what is essentially a competition tyre to a road car. It certainly gave the car pace but the car is almost totally relying on the physical grip of the tyre rather than tha mechanical grip of the chasis for it's pace.
When both cars have tyre parity, there is a fair bit between them in terms of performance (MK2 and RS GT3's). The GT3 is essentially a road legal racing car after all but pound for pound, the CSL is a performance bargain. I'm still toying with trading in my M5 for one
Steve R
How does the GT3 RS standard tyre compare to the cup.?
I'm assumiing the Corsa track tyre is the standard RS fitment, and that this is comparable to the Cup.!
I know it's academic, but the autocar test at Brands Indy had the RS lapping 54.20, the CSL 54.75.. Brundle driving.
zb4523 said:
great sound very very quick but at the end of the day,looks like an m3and just not special enough for a road car.
I used to drool over 355s until I had one, same with GT3.!
It is a fantastic looking car, but once novelty wears off.. it is what it does, not how it looks that matters.
I think pound for pound, as well as everyday practicality, the CSL is a much better buy + it is as quick on track, quicker round the ring.!
www.m3csl.de/images/forums/SA_CSL_Supertest/SA_CSL_Supertest.htm
German car mag joint test..
GT3 Rob said:
How does the GT3 RS standard tyre compare to the cup.?
I'm assumiing the Corsa track tyre is the standard RS fitment, and that this is comparable to the Cup.!
I know it's academic, but the autocar test at Brands Indy had the RS lapping 54.20, the CSL 54.75.. Brundle driving.
Corsa system is the standard fitment on the RS, this is not the same as the corsa track tyre (which is obviously a fair bit quicker around a track & comparable to the cup)
Rob, My BMW dealer did the camber on mine using the normal KDS alignment machine, cost was about £200 IIRC. I just printed off the settings that Steve D posted on BM3W and took the car down.
Gixxer has got camber adjustment plates and KW suspension so can go further than standard stuff, mine is set to its maximum at just under 2 degrees negative but others have managed to get just over 2 degrees, luck of the draw.
I have Pagid RS19 all round with braded hoses and AP 5.1 and have just gone for the AP 6 pot front kit to give me a better pedal feel and hopefully more consistant braking throughout a trackday as opposed to the pedal getting soggier and spongier as the day wears on. Nothing worse than using 2" of pedal travel before you meet any resistance, hardly confidence inspiring!
Gixxer has got camber adjustment plates and KW suspension so can go further than standard stuff, mine is set to its maximum at just under 2 degrees negative but others have managed to get just over 2 degrees, luck of the draw.
I have Pagid RS19 all round with braded hoses and AP 5.1 and have just gone for the AP 6 pot front kit to give me a better pedal feel and hopefully more consistant braking throughout a trackday as opposed to the pedal getting soggier and spongier as the day wears on. Nothing worse than using 2" of pedal travel before you meet any resistance, hardly confidence inspiring!
zb4523 said:
u dont really believe that last statement about it does what it does not how it looks rob?
yeah.. in so much that, once you've had the car.. the wow/drool factor no longer applies.
If I was to look at a GT3 now, I would think.. nice car, trackday weapon.. but there would be no lust.. where as 6 mths ago.. I would see a GT3 and get a hard-on..
It's like dreaming about dating Angelina Jolie.. once you've been sh*gging the arse of her for 3 mths, novelty wears off.
All in my own conceited opinion of course.
Rob
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