How can I sharpen up a 996?
Discussion
Hi all. Well, as you can probably guess from the title, I wrenched myself away from that siren on the rocks.
Don't get me wrong. My lust for a GT3 is not diminished - I'm just happy to wait a year before buying the perfect one, and take it back to the UK with me. Besides, where the heck would I drive it in this desert? There are no tracks as yet, and the local roads are fast but straight. Seems like a waste of a great car to me.
Anyway, in the intervening period, I'd be very grateful for some advice. Clearly this whole GT3 thing has left me feeling a little short-changed by the Carrera. For a small outlay I would like to sharpen up the handling. I know no matter what money I spend I will never be able to replicate the GT3 experience, so I am happy to settle for a small improvement. That means less understeer, faster turn-in, flatter cornering. I assume there's not a lot I can do about the steering rack for not much cash.
So, any advice? I have a facelift Carrera 2, no PSM, 17 inch wheels on Michelin Pilot Sports (new so I don't want to change them!) and standard suspension.
The local dealer can stiffen the suspension (either Porsche's own sports suspension or a Gemballa job which is cheaper but apparently produces the same result). Does anyone have experience of doing this on a 996, especially the facelift model?
Having driven the GT3, I think I could live with a 30mm drop in ride height but is this inadvisable with 17 inch wheels? I am not keen to swap to 18 inch wheels, not just because of the cost, but also because I prefer the sensitivity and throttle adjustability on 17s. Would it be a mistake to drop the car without increasing the wheel size?
Many thanks in advance for any helpful (and inexpensive!) suggestions.
Don't get me wrong. My lust for a GT3 is not diminished - I'm just happy to wait a year before buying the perfect one, and take it back to the UK with me. Besides, where the heck would I drive it in this desert? There are no tracks as yet, and the local roads are fast but straight. Seems like a waste of a great car to me.
Anyway, in the intervening period, I'd be very grateful for some advice. Clearly this whole GT3 thing has left me feeling a little short-changed by the Carrera. For a small outlay I would like to sharpen up the handling. I know no matter what money I spend I will never be able to replicate the GT3 experience, so I am happy to settle for a small improvement. That means less understeer, faster turn-in, flatter cornering. I assume there's not a lot I can do about the steering rack for not much cash.
So, any advice? I have a facelift Carrera 2, no PSM, 17 inch wheels on Michelin Pilot Sports (new so I don't want to change them!) and standard suspension.
The local dealer can stiffen the suspension (either Porsche's own sports suspension or a Gemballa job which is cheaper but apparently produces the same result). Does anyone have experience of doing this on a 996, especially the facelift model?
Having driven the GT3, I think I could live with a 30mm drop in ride height but is this inadvisable with 17 inch wheels? I am not keen to swap to 18 inch wheels, not just because of the cost, but also because I prefer the sensitivity and throttle adjustability on 17s. Would it be a mistake to drop the car without increasing the wheel size?
Many thanks in advance for any helpful (and inexpensive!) suggestions.
Irfan,
Depends what you mean by 'inexpensive'. I've just had the Porsche sports suspension fitted to my '99 996 C4 by an OPC. Cost about £1,600. That's more than an after-market setup, but I wanted suspension that's fully tested and certified by Porsche.
However, I would thoroughly recommend the investment - the car's been transformed and now handles like a Porsche should. The ride quality has suffered a little, but maybe only 20% harsher. The car's lowered only about 10 to 20mm, so doesn't LOOK that different to stock.
The stock suspension is very good, but a bit soft and has too much body roll on hard cornering. I do have 18" wheels though.
If I were you, I'd spend some of your tax-free salary on both new 18" wheels (the new Carerra wheels are quite light) and the sports suspension. Still won't be a GT3 though! But there's an outfit in the UK that will do a reliable twin-turbo conversion, so you could try turning your car into a GT2!
Depends what you mean by 'inexpensive'. I've just had the Porsche sports suspension fitted to my '99 996 C4 by an OPC. Cost about £1,600. That's more than an after-market setup, but I wanted suspension that's fully tested and certified by Porsche.
However, I would thoroughly recommend the investment - the car's been transformed and now handles like a Porsche should. The ride quality has suffered a little, but maybe only 20% harsher. The car's lowered only about 10 to 20mm, so doesn't LOOK that different to stock.
The stock suspension is very good, but a bit soft and has too much body roll on hard cornering. I do have 18" wheels though.
If I were you, I'd spend some of your tax-free salary on both new 18" wheels (the new Carerra wheels are quite light) and the sports suspension. Still won't be a GT3 though! But there's an outfit in the UK that will do a reliable twin-turbo conversion, so you could try turning your car into a GT2!
Older than 996 porkers are realy my area, but I'm pretty sure there are 2 types of sports suspension for the 996, a 10mm drop & a 30mm drop. The 10mm is supposidly the one to go for and im assuming its the one aronaugt has. The 30mm takes you to GT3 height (I belive) and will be a similar harshness (although the GT3 has many other detail suspension differences, so it wont quite handle the same)and I feel the 30mm option may be too frim for you.
>> Edited by iguana on Thursday 17th October 12:49
>> Edited by iguana on Thursday 17th October 12:49
Argonaut: the hardcore GT2/3 type stuff will have to wait. Meanwhile I just need a short term fix. By inexpensive, I mean around a grand sterling, so that seems the right ballpark. Gave the 18 inch wheels serious thought back when I was buying, but after a back to back test against a 17 inch car, I realised the delicacy and throttle adjustability was not quite the same with the bigger wheels. Grip and stability are all very good, but I know my personal limits and am more comfortable wiggling the rear end and tucking the nose in at lower speeds. If I absolutely must compliment the sports suspension with 18s, then I will do so, but I'd rather not.
Someone will probably also suggest a sports exhaust as the sound will make the whole experience more enjoyable without altering the dynamics. I discounted this mainly because I like the 02 model standard exhaust - it's pretty fruity in the right places yet refined on a motorway cruise. I might give it thought at a later date if I get bored of the sound.
Thanks for the replies so far - keep 'em coming. I'm particularly keen to hear if anyone has tried a Gemballa suspension or the 30mm Porsche option and lived with it day to day. As a reference, I find the standard suspension is competent but perhaps the ride quality is just too soothing and I don't mind losing some of that. Currently, the replies suggest I should be going for the 10mm option.
Someone will probably also suggest a sports exhaust as the sound will make the whole experience more enjoyable without altering the dynamics. I discounted this mainly because I like the 02 model standard exhaust - it's pretty fruity in the right places yet refined on a motorway cruise. I might give it thought at a later date if I get bored of the sound.
Thanks for the replies so far - keep 'em coming. I'm particularly keen to hear if anyone has tried a Gemballa suspension or the 30mm Porsche option and lived with it day to day. As a reference, I find the standard suspension is competent but perhaps the ride quality is just too soothing and I don't mind losing some of that. Currently, the replies suggest I should be going for the 10mm option.
Can't help with the 30mm drop in terms of handling and generally living with it, but I've got the 10mm drop sports suspension (Porsche Factory Fitted), and find it more than adequate for my skill levels of driving. Certainly not too firm/harsh to live with around town, and more than capable around N'ring or hammering down to Le Mans.
My only additional comment would be one of practical terms....... I'd love to know how people manage with a 30mm drop, because I've got the GT3 kit/18" wheels, and I already struggle with front ground clearance. The ramp up to my front drive is simply not possible, most multi-storey car-parks result in a loud scrape, and speed bumps have to be taken very slowly.
>> Edited by Tony_996 on Thursday 17th October 13:23
My only additional comment would be one of practical terms....... I'd love to know how people manage with a 30mm drop, because I've got the GT3 kit/18" wheels, and I already struggle with front ground clearance. The ramp up to my front drive is simply not possible, most multi-storey car-parks result in a loud scrape, and speed bumps have to be taken very slowly.
>> Edited by Tony_996 on Thursday 17th October 13:23
Yes, I was referring to the 10mm drop. The 30mm drop is a factory fit option ONLY and cannot be retrofitted - apparently Porsche need to strengthen other chassis components for the 30mm lowering not to put too much strain on other suspension parts.
Unless you track or race your car every other week, I can't understand why anyone would want the 30mm drop or a GT2/GT3 suspension.
I agree about throttle response though, with 18" wheels. My car used to have 17" ones and when I changed, I definitely noticed a slight decrease in acceleration - not sure if it was my imagination (anyone else changed from 17 to 18?).
Unless you track or race your car every other week, I can't understand why anyone would want the 30mm drop or a GT2/GT3 suspension.
I agree about throttle response though, with 18" wheels. My car used to have 17" ones and when I changed, I definitely noticed a slight decrease in acceleration - not sure if it was my imagination (anyone else changed from 17 to 18?).
Harris,
Fit the Gemballa springs and put the rest of your money in the bank for the imminent purchase of the GT3. Don't waste any more on the Porsche package, I have never liked it and for what it costs I suspect that you will not gain in price/performance terms.
The Gemballa springs drop the ride height by 30mm and eliminate the horible "floaty" feel that the stock springs have at 80mph plus. Believe it or not our local OPC refused to acknowledge a fault on a customers new 996 convertible that swapped lanes on its own over 80mph on the grounds that "it is not possible to drive at this speed in the UK" (so much for OPC's customer relations). We checked the alignment and found a small improvement, but in the end fitted the Gembs and nailed the problem.
I suppose that I have fitted around 10 sets of the Gemballa springs to 98-01 996's and can say that they suit the car and standard dampers really well. The only proviso is that they obviously perform better with shocks in perfect condition, so fit new dampers if the car has done more than 40,000 miles. In these circumstances also consider fitting a full handling kit with matching dampers rather than new OE's as the overall cost will be similar.
That's my opinion anyway.
Fit the Gemballa springs and put the rest of your money in the bank for the imminent purchase of the GT3. Don't waste any more on the Porsche package, I have never liked it and for what it costs I suspect that you will not gain in price/performance terms.
The Gemballa springs drop the ride height by 30mm and eliminate the horible "floaty" feel that the stock springs have at 80mph plus. Believe it or not our local OPC refused to acknowledge a fault on a customers new 996 convertible that swapped lanes on its own over 80mph on the grounds that "it is not possible to drive at this speed in the UK" (so much for OPC's customer relations). We checked the alignment and found a small improvement, but in the end fitted the Gembs and nailed the problem.
I suppose that I have fitted around 10 sets of the Gemballa springs to 98-01 996's and can say that they suit the car and standard dampers really well. The only proviso is that they obviously perform better with shocks in perfect condition, so fit new dampers if the car has done more than 40,000 miles. In these circumstances also consider fitting a full handling kit with matching dampers rather than new OE's as the overall cost will be similar.
That's my opinion anyway.
i changed springs only on a car a few yrs back and it shagged the handling as the dampers were not stiff enough for the new lowered /uprated springs and so it ended up pogo-ing!! i guess thats why the manufacturers spend so long testing!
i would have thought the porsche matched sets are pretty good, surely?
Ben
NineMeister said: Harris,
.......Believe it or not our local OPC refused to acknowledge a fault on a customers new 996 convertible that swapped lanes on its own over 80mph on the grounds that "it is not possible to drive at this speed in the UK"........
WTF
Barstewards wouldn't pull that stunt on the posters on this board, thats for sure.
In my case I had a rattle at 69mph+, and the OPC said they would not be able to identify it. Solution mechanic in car, me driving, problem identified, problem then solved. Something to do with insurance and speed limits!! go figure?
If anyone gets problems like this ask them to put it in writing and get into a fax war with germany. Do not pass go, do not collect £200, just get stuck in.....
DAZ
Thanks guys. This is all very helpful.
Re the throttle adjustability, argonaut, actually what I meant was that the car's attitude seemed less adjustable via throttle through the bend on 18s, rather than anything to do with the acceleration. I suspect the difference in acceleration would be too small for me to notice so I'm not desperately bothered by that.
9M, did you fit the Gemballa package on 996s with 17s? If so, what did the customers think?
Re the throttle adjustability, argonaut, actually what I meant was that the car's attitude seemed less adjustable via throttle through the bend on 18s, rather than anything to do with the acceleration. I suspect the difference in acceleration would be too small for me to notice so I'm not desperately bothered by that.
9M, did you fit the Gemballa package on 996s with 17s? If so, what did the customers think?
NineMeister said: Don't waste any more on the Porsche package, I have never liked it and for what it costs I suspect that you will not gain in price/performance terms.
I agree that the Porsche suspension package is overpriced, but I'm very happy with the results. I did a steady 120mph last night for a couple of minutes on the M40 and the car felt pretty planted. The package also comes with a slightly thicker rear anti-roll bar, which I'm sure is of benefit for handling.
The great thing is the ride comfort - hasn't been adversely affected that much. Most after-market stuff will harshen the ride substantially (and 30mm drops will mean excessive rubbing on speed bumps/curbs and slopes).
At the end of the day, you're probably not going to find an after-market suspension kit as well matched (and tested on a 996) as the Porsche items.
>> Edited by argonaut on Friday 18th October 10:10
domster said: Lee77 had some kind of sports suspension fitted to his 996. Maybe he'll reply here, or you could email his profile direct (browse members).
Cheers
Domster
Try this www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?f=48&h=&t=4869
Thx
Lee77
Hello,
I have an 02 Cab and just purchased the Euro Sport Suspension from www.carnewal.com. They sell the Porsche Sport Suspension that drops the car 20mm in the front and 10mm in the rear. It makes a huge difference in the handling of the car. They also sell the H&R setup from the GT3 that drops the car 30-60mm (front) and 30-50mm (rear). I would not go that way if you drive the car on the street.
I don't know how carnewal compairs to the UK pricing. I live in the US and they are a lot cheaper than the US dealers...
Good luck
Roy
I have an 02 Cab and just purchased the Euro Sport Suspension from www.carnewal.com. They sell the Porsche Sport Suspension that drops the car 20mm in the front and 10mm in the rear. It makes a huge difference in the handling of the car. They also sell the H&R setup from the GT3 that drops the car 30-60mm (front) and 30-50mm (rear). I would not go that way if you drive the car on the street.
I don't know how carnewal compairs to the UK pricing. I live in the US and they are a lot cheaper than the US dealers...
Good luck
Roy
Lee, I notice from your profile that you haved owned 3 996s recently - was the work done to the stock 996 and if so, what exactly was done (i.e. any Parr specific black magic or something any competent outfit could do)?
Unfortunately I will only have access to an OPC or one alternative which is run by an ex-OPC service manager, hence I probably won't get the same breadth and quality of advice here as I would from the likes of Parr or other motorsport connected garages.
Unfortunately I will only have access to an OPC or one alternative which is run by an ex-OPC service manager, hence I probably won't get the same breadth and quality of advice here as I would from the likes of Parr or other motorsport connected garages.
Sorry Argonaut but my idea of testing suspension is not doing 100+mph on a motorway, neither is it judged by ride comfort.More important surely is the ability to go round a bend quickly with the feeling that you are in control? You have to make allowances as to me the 964RS is comfortable. One man's meat?
Now, regarding Porsche developed suspension, their idea is to conduct market research and find out what the new 996 buyer is looking for in a car, then develop a package to suit his pocket. No, I do not mean the price of the kit, I mean that if he does not like it he will not buy the car. Me, I prefer the days when a Porsche was not a 2+2 merc in drag. Sod it, let's get on to Germany right now and tell them to scrap the line of Carrera 2's and build them all as GT3's.
Harris, all the cars we converted were on 18" wheels and most customers were looking for the GT3 look for much less money and improvements in handling, which they achieved.
Now, regarding Porsche developed suspension, their idea is to conduct market research and find out what the new 996 buyer is looking for in a car, then develop a package to suit his pocket. No, I do not mean the price of the kit, I mean that if he does not like it he will not buy the car. Me, I prefer the days when a Porsche was not a 2+2 merc in drag. Sod it, let's get on to Germany right now and tell them to scrap the line of Carrera 2's and build them all as GT3's.
Harris, all the cars we converted were on 18" wheels and most customers were looking for the GT3 look for much less money and improvements in handling, which they achieved.
Harris_I said: Lee, I notice from your profile that you haved owned 3 996s recently - was the work done to the stock 996 and if so, what exactly was done (i.e. any Parr specific black magic or something any competent outfit could do)?
Unfortunately I will only have access to an OPC or one alternative which is run by an ex-OPC service manager, hence I probably won't get the same breadth and quality of advice here as I would from the likes of Parr or other motorsport connected garages.
The car was a C2 with GT3 aerokit fitted, had it lowered 30-35mm (bit too low), springs changed and the geometry adjusted for less understeer.
Thx
Lee77
Hi, just an update if anyone's interested.
In the end I went for a 25mm drop on Eibachs and a front strut brace. I stuck with the 17 inch wheels in order to maintain a modicum of comfort and also to maintain decent throttle adjustability. First impressions: visually the car looks much more well resolved. Even with just the 17s, the wheels fit the arches a lot better - but of course aesthetics is of little relevance to the task in hand.
From the off, the steering feels much meatier (almost as if the power assistance has been reduced). At low to medium speeds, turn-in is much more immediate and there is little or no body roll - it feels like a faster steering rack although this is of course an illusion. Lean on the car through a medium speed second gear or low to medium speed third gear corner and there is no hint of understeer, so no need to partially lift the throttle then reapply. Really lean on it mid-bend and the car adopts a four wheel drift rather than wanting to plough straight on.
Tight second gear bends need care: coupled with a more immediate turn in and the fact that the car feels more taut and alive at the back, the car wants to "snap" round faster than previously. It means it's also easier to get the back to wiggle on the way out but remains straightforward to correct.
The car also settles into a neutral stance immediately through high speed (fourth gear) bends.
I can't comment on getting the car to power oversteer out of third or fourth gear bends (no talent, no balls).
Ride quality appears to have been virtually unaffected. Motorway expansion joints, raised road surface markings and cats eyes seem to produce the same level of thump as before, although I can't comment on how the car would feel on pot-holed British roads - overall very surprised. I think the 17 inch wheels help to keep everything pretty comfortable. Speed bumps and inclined ramps need a little more care, although no huge difficulty there.
The car feels more planted above 80 or 90mph - I wonder if this is a result of the reduced distance between the car's underbody and the road surface? (Equals more downforce? Venturi effect? A level physics anyone?). Still a comfortable ride but the previous nose "patter" and Jaguar-like springiness appears to have gone - have yet to try much in excess of 100mph though.
So all in all, a really pleasing result. For a quarter of the price of an OPC (they wanted two grand), my local specialist has dialled out the understeer and sharpened up the handling. I think the car now handles how it should have handled in the first place. In fact it reminds me of my old '86 Carrera 3.2 in some ways, just less intimidating.
In the end I went for a 25mm drop on Eibachs and a front strut brace. I stuck with the 17 inch wheels in order to maintain a modicum of comfort and also to maintain decent throttle adjustability. First impressions: visually the car looks much more well resolved. Even with just the 17s, the wheels fit the arches a lot better - but of course aesthetics is of little relevance to the task in hand.
From the off, the steering feels much meatier (almost as if the power assistance has been reduced). At low to medium speeds, turn-in is much more immediate and there is little or no body roll - it feels like a faster steering rack although this is of course an illusion. Lean on the car through a medium speed second gear or low to medium speed third gear corner and there is no hint of understeer, so no need to partially lift the throttle then reapply. Really lean on it mid-bend and the car adopts a four wheel drift rather than wanting to plough straight on.
Tight second gear bends need care: coupled with a more immediate turn in and the fact that the car feels more taut and alive at the back, the car wants to "snap" round faster than previously. It means it's also easier to get the back to wiggle on the way out but remains straightforward to correct.
The car also settles into a neutral stance immediately through high speed (fourth gear) bends.
I can't comment on getting the car to power oversteer out of third or fourth gear bends (no talent, no balls).
Ride quality appears to have been virtually unaffected. Motorway expansion joints, raised road surface markings and cats eyes seem to produce the same level of thump as before, although I can't comment on how the car would feel on pot-holed British roads - overall very surprised. I think the 17 inch wheels help to keep everything pretty comfortable. Speed bumps and inclined ramps need a little more care, although no huge difficulty there.
The car feels more planted above 80 or 90mph - I wonder if this is a result of the reduced distance between the car's underbody and the road surface? (Equals more downforce? Venturi effect? A level physics anyone?). Still a comfortable ride but the previous nose "patter" and Jaguar-like springiness appears to have gone - have yet to try much in excess of 100mph though.
So all in all, a really pleasing result. For a quarter of the price of an OPC (they wanted two grand), my local specialist has dialled out the understeer and sharpened up the handling. I think the car now handles how it should have handled in the first place. In fact it reminds me of my old '86 Carrera 3.2 in some ways, just less intimidating.
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