Cabriolet or coupe?
Discussion
Hi,
I am looking into purchasing a 911 Carrera S. In addition to the model year (997.2 or 991.1), I am also undecided between a coupe and cabriolet. For me it is important to enjoy the exhaust sounds. Obviously, in a cabrio with the top down it is more noticeable than in a coupe with a sun roof. But what if the top is up? Do you hear the exhaust sounds more or less compared to the coupe? My current 718 GT4 obviously has no sunroof, and I miss it to maximize the joy of driving.
I am looking into purchasing a 911 Carrera S. In addition to the model year (997.2 or 991.1), I am also undecided between a coupe and cabriolet. For me it is important to enjoy the exhaust sounds. Obviously, in a cabrio with the top down it is more noticeable than in a coupe with a sun roof. But what if the top is up? Do you hear the exhaust sounds more or less compared to the coupe? My current 718 GT4 obviously has no sunroof, and I miss it to maximize the joy of driving.
Dominique997GTS said:
Hi,
I am looking into purchasing a 911 Carrera S. In addition to the model year (997.2 or 991.1), I am also undecided between a coupe and cabriolet. For me it is important to enjoy the exhaust sounds. Obviously, in a cabrio with the top down it is more noticeable than in a coupe with a sun roof. But what if the top is up? Do you hear the exhaust sounds more or less compared to the coupe? My current 718 GT4 obviously has no sunroof, and I miss it to maximize the joy of driving.
You hear a bit more. We have a cab (997 C4S). Perfect touring car as roof is so good it is the best of both worlds. You do lose some structural rigidity but not much.I am looking into purchasing a 911 Carrera S. In addition to the model year (997.2 or 991.1), I am also undecided between a coupe and cabriolet. For me it is important to enjoy the exhaust sounds. Obviously, in a cabrio with the top down it is more noticeable than in a coupe with a sun roof. But what if the top is up? Do you hear the exhaust sounds more or less compared to the coupe? My current 718 GT4 obviously has no sunroof, and I miss it to maximize the joy of driving.
For me the 911 doesn't look right with the roof down. Especially when compared to the Boxster which is made to be roofless. That's why I like the 991 Targa because the roof looks clever. Anyway things to consider..
Yes I like top down motoring too. It feels more special having the roof down and can help break up the monotony of driving. Totally different to a sunroof.
In a Boxster the car is made to be topless. In a 911 it is not. This means that the wind and buffeting in a 911 with the roof down is way more intrusive than in a proper 2 seater convertible like the Boxster. Which means you will not be able to enjoy the experience as much and may have it up more especially if travelling at motorway speeds and / or if the weather isn't red hot.
The back seats in a 997 cabrio are a lot smaller and way more useless than the standard coupe so as to accommodate the roof. No idea about the 991 but it must be similar.
The roof on a 911 is much more substantial than on a Boxster as its a 4 seater. All 4 seater convertibles flex a lot in the middle. The more modern Porsches are getting more and more rigid but the older ones were much more bendy. The 981 Boxster is very stiff and its quite a similar drive to the Cayman.
So in summary if it were me I would go 997 coupe or 981 Boxster.
Yes I like top down motoring too. It feels more special having the roof down and can help break up the monotony of driving. Totally different to a sunroof.
In a Boxster the car is made to be topless. In a 911 it is not. This means that the wind and buffeting in a 911 with the roof down is way more intrusive than in a proper 2 seater convertible like the Boxster. Which means you will not be able to enjoy the experience as much and may have it up more especially if travelling at motorway speeds and / or if the weather isn't red hot.
The back seats in a 997 cabrio are a lot smaller and way more useless than the standard coupe so as to accommodate the roof. No idea about the 991 but it must be similar.
The roof on a 911 is much more substantial than on a Boxster as its a 4 seater. All 4 seater convertibles flex a lot in the middle. The more modern Porsches are getting more and more rigid but the older ones were much more bendy. The 981 Boxster is very stiff and its quite a similar drive to the Cayman.
So in summary if it were me I would go 997 coupe or 981 Boxster.
I've owned Boxsters, 997 Coupe, 991 Coupes & Cab. I respectfully disagree with ATM on the 991 silhouette (but accept the 997 and before always looked a bit awkward.) The Boxster is a fantastic car for top-down motoring and as noted, was designed specifically to fulfil that brief.
But the lid on a 991 is brilliant, secure & surprising soundproofed - when down, you notice minor scuttle shake, but still get the full fat P experience with a tad more luxury than the Boxster.
The targa feels much heavier to me and every one I tried, reminded me of Bagpuss. I couldn't abide the squeaks & rattles.
But the lid on a 991 is brilliant, secure & surprising soundproofed - when down, you notice minor scuttle shake, but still get the full fat P experience with a tad more luxury than the Boxster.
The targa feels much heavier to me and every one I tried, reminded me of Bagpuss. I couldn't abide the squeaks & rattles.
bridggar1 said:
I've owned Boxsters, 997 Coupe, 991 Coupes & Cab. I respectfully disagree with ATM on the 991 silhouette (but accept the 997 and before always looked a bit awkward.) The Boxster is a fantastic car for top-down motoring and as noted, was designed specifically to fulfil that brief.
But the lid on a 991 is brilliant, secure & surprising soundproofed - when down, you notice minor scuttle shake, but still get the full fat P experience with a tad more luxury than the Boxster.
The targa feels much heavier to me and every one I tried, reminded me of Bagpuss. I couldn't abide the squeaks & rattles.
You're allowed to disagree but no need to be so polite doing it. I do like the 991 but it's way more money and gets your into territory with some other interesting metal like r8, some astons and maybe even a lambo or staying in the Porsche stable there is the Spyder. I will also say I have never driven a 991 targa because I'd probably end up buying it so self preservation requires me not to do it. All I know about the targa is the roof looks amazing going up and down - if you've not seen it get yourself over to YouTube. Not really thought beyond that. I don't need back seats so for me it makes sense to go 2 seater if I want convertible. I am not saying I will never have a 911 convertible just that the Boxster seems a better car for roof downing.But the lid on a 991 is brilliant, secure & surprising soundproofed - when down, you notice minor scuttle shake, but still get the full fat P experience with a tad more luxury than the Boxster.
The targa feels much heavier to me and every one I tried, reminded me of Bagpuss. I couldn't abide the squeaks & rattles.
Are you keeping the 718 GT4, or would the 911 be a replacement?
My former partner had a 997.2 and then 991.1 C4S Cab and I've driven thousands of miles in them from motorway runs to B-road blasts. My thoughts are as follows.
997.2
Looks wise, I never thought the 997 cab was quite right. The back end just seemed a bit big for the rest of it. The interior was a nice place to be with no blank switches (I miss the days when Porsche did button packs depending on the spec of the car!). However it was the drive of the 997 I loved. I'll admit it wasn't a car I bonded with quickly. I'd say it was a few thousand miles before I really got how to get the best out of it, but one trip down to see a mate in Wales, it all clicked. And once it had, I loved it. The feel from the 997 is fantastic and you could really feel where the grip was. Wind noise was significant, though improved with the deflector. Annoyingly in the 997 this is a removable item which you have to manually secure in place.
991.1
The 997 was replaced by this. A very different car. To my eye, the 991 shape works much better as a cab, however the interior, whiile nice, annoyed me with the blank switches. I also felt that you were more at one with the 997 when it came to seating - both cars had the many way adjustable sports seats. In the 991 the wind deflector is electric which is nice. You have said exhaust noise is a big thing for you - well this is where the 991 scored well. It was loud! The car had PSE, but it was fitted (by the OPC) when my ex bought the car and had not been factory fit. Switched off it wasn't exactly quiet, and on it really made noise. Great sense of drama. However, to drive, it just didn't compete with the 997.2. The power seemed to come higher up the rev range and with the tall gearing that Porsche love, you seemed to need to be near 60 before the car was in its stride. Coming off a roundabout in 2nd in the 997 it felt like it just wanted to go. In the 991 it felt a bit flat until you got right up the rev range. The steering was also not as good. It didn't have the feel and I never felt I could place it as well as the 997.
I've driven coupe versions of both cars too. I'll admit that prior to living with the cars above I was staunch coupe, but the cars above did soften that for me a lot. The 997 in particular. Indeed, some of my most memorable drives in any car were in the 997 and if I could afford one as well as my Cayman, I'd have a 997.2 in a heartbeat. Up here in NE Scotland the 4S was also nice to have - the cross country wet weather ability of that car was fantastic, and actually better than the 991.
Anyway, as always with these things, try a few cars and see what you like. But for me, I'd go 997 and, if you don't mind the weight and rigidity compromise and are ok with the looks, I think a cab with a sports exhasut might tick some boxes for you.
My former partner had a 997.2 and then 991.1 C4S Cab and I've driven thousands of miles in them from motorway runs to B-road blasts. My thoughts are as follows.
997.2
Looks wise, I never thought the 997 cab was quite right. The back end just seemed a bit big for the rest of it. The interior was a nice place to be with no blank switches (I miss the days when Porsche did button packs depending on the spec of the car!). However it was the drive of the 997 I loved. I'll admit it wasn't a car I bonded with quickly. I'd say it was a few thousand miles before I really got how to get the best out of it, but one trip down to see a mate in Wales, it all clicked. And once it had, I loved it. The feel from the 997 is fantastic and you could really feel where the grip was. Wind noise was significant, though improved with the deflector. Annoyingly in the 997 this is a removable item which you have to manually secure in place.
991.1
The 997 was replaced by this. A very different car. To my eye, the 991 shape works much better as a cab, however the interior, whiile nice, annoyed me with the blank switches. I also felt that you were more at one with the 997 when it came to seating - both cars had the many way adjustable sports seats. In the 991 the wind deflector is electric which is nice. You have said exhaust noise is a big thing for you - well this is where the 991 scored well. It was loud! The car had PSE, but it was fitted (by the OPC) when my ex bought the car and had not been factory fit. Switched off it wasn't exactly quiet, and on it really made noise. Great sense of drama. However, to drive, it just didn't compete with the 997.2. The power seemed to come higher up the rev range and with the tall gearing that Porsche love, you seemed to need to be near 60 before the car was in its stride. Coming off a roundabout in 2nd in the 997 it felt like it just wanted to go. In the 991 it felt a bit flat until you got right up the rev range. The steering was also not as good. It didn't have the feel and I never felt I could place it as well as the 997.
I've driven coupe versions of both cars too. I'll admit that prior to living with the cars above I was staunch coupe, but the cars above did soften that for me a lot. The 997 in particular. Indeed, some of my most memorable drives in any car were in the 997 and if I could afford one as well as my Cayman, I'd have a 997.2 in a heartbeat. Up here in NE Scotland the 4S was also nice to have - the cross country wet weather ability of that car was fantastic, and actually better than the 991.
Anyway, as always with these things, try a few cars and see what you like. But for me, I'd go 997 and, if you don't mind the weight and rigidity compromise and are ok with the looks, I think a cab with a sports exhasut might tick some boxes for you.
PaulD86 said:
Are you keeping the 718 GT4, or would the 911 be a replacement?
I will not keep the GT4. It drives fantastically (steering, gearbox...), but it is just a bit too quiet regarding exhaust sound, also with the windows down. I think my previous 997 GTS with PSE sounded louder, and nicer, albeit that could be due to the fact that it had a sunroof, which was open most of the time. Aftermarket exhaust for the GT4 might be a solution, but I like to keep my cars stock.I definitely like the sound of the 991.1 with PSE even more, but there I have doubts regarding the gearing, steering feel and overall size of the car... also these things count in the equation.
The sound with a cabrio is obvious louder but for both the 997.2 and 991.1 I prefer the lines of the coupe. However, it is not easy to find a low-mileage coupe with a sunroof and PSE. Oh, and by the way, I am only looking for manuals :-)
So I have wittered on about the differences between coupes and cabs.
If you want to know about the differences between 997 and 991 then that's a much bigger conversation.
First we have to get past the Gen 1 997 or Gen 2 997 topic which is massive. I think there is a recent thread for this here - https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
In boarder terms the main differences between the 997 and 991 are the steering, the auto option, the refinement, the modernness and the general age.
Steering
996 and 997 use a hydraulic system and have the best steering feel of almost any car full stop. Obviously some people might disagree but generally well accepted as true. The 991 by comparison has first generation electric steering from Porsche and it is numb and wooden and just generally lacking.
Auto Option
997 Gen 1 is Tiptronic and rubbish compared to PDK in 997 Gen 2 and 991. If you like Auto you have to buy a PDK car. End of discussion. PDK gearboxes are basically sealed from Porsche and absolutely no one is willing to open one up in the 3rd party market. Porsche will sell you a refurbished replacement for 6 grand plus VAT on an exchange basis.
Refinement
Each generation of Porsche gets more and more refined. If you want refinement you need the newest car you can find. If you want something less refined and more Raw then you need the oldest car you can find. Simple really.
Modernness
You can basically repeat the above for this. I will say the 997 has basically all the mod cons you could ever want except heated steering wheel which for me is useless unless you go for a Cab and then its great for roof top driving in cooler temps. If you want car play and all that jazz you will need to update the 997 to after market. Porsche have released an up to date system for the 996 but it is not yet available for the 997. It is coming soon.
General Age
Obviously this is a concern with cars especially Porsches. As these cars get older then the maintenance bills will start to become a concern and much stuff needs to be renewed. A tired 997 - which can be gen 2 as well as gen 1 - can easily swallow 5 to 10 grand on stuff likes brakes, clutch, rads, Coolant AC pipes / tubes, AC condensers, AC pipes / tubes, PAS pipes / tubes, exhaust brackets / clamps / boxes, engine mounts, dynamic engine mounts on 991 - these are a grand each I think, and so on and so on before we even get to suspension. Much of this stuff is age dependant so even if the car has not been driven it can still need this stuff doing. Some of the above can start to become relevant on the 991 also as the earliest of these cars are 2012 so 10 years old already. PDK boxes mentioned above.
Edited to remove references to manual gearboxes
If you want to know about the differences between 997 and 991 then that's a much bigger conversation.
First we have to get past the Gen 1 997 or Gen 2 997 topic which is massive. I think there is a recent thread for this here - https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
In boarder terms the main differences between the 997 and 991 are the steering, the auto option, the refinement, the modernness and the general age.
Steering
996 and 997 use a hydraulic system and have the best steering feel of almost any car full stop. Obviously some people might disagree but generally well accepted as true. The 991 by comparison has first generation electric steering from Porsche and it is numb and wooden and just generally lacking.
Auto Option
997 Gen 1 is Tiptronic and rubbish compared to PDK in 997 Gen 2 and 991. If you like Auto you have to buy a PDK car. End of discussion. PDK gearboxes are basically sealed from Porsche and absolutely no one is willing to open one up in the 3rd party market. Porsche will sell you a refurbished replacement for 6 grand plus VAT on an exchange basis.
Refinement
Each generation of Porsche gets more and more refined. If you want refinement you need the newest car you can find. If you want something less refined and more Raw then you need the oldest car you can find. Simple really.
Modernness
You can basically repeat the above for this. I will say the 997 has basically all the mod cons you could ever want except heated steering wheel which for me is useless unless you go for a Cab and then its great for roof top driving in cooler temps. If you want car play and all that jazz you will need to update the 997 to after market. Porsche have released an up to date system for the 996 but it is not yet available for the 997. It is coming soon.
General Age
Obviously this is a concern with cars especially Porsches. As these cars get older then the maintenance bills will start to become a concern and much stuff needs to be renewed. A tired 997 - which can be gen 2 as well as gen 1 - can easily swallow 5 to 10 grand on stuff likes brakes, clutch, rads, Coolant AC pipes / tubes, AC condensers, AC pipes / tubes, PAS pipes / tubes, exhaust brackets / clamps / boxes, engine mounts, dynamic engine mounts on 991 - these are a grand each I think, and so on and so on before we even get to suspension. Much of this stuff is age dependant so even if the car has not been driven it can still need this stuff doing. Some of the above can start to become relevant on the 991 also as the earliest of these cars are 2012 so 10 years old already. PDK boxes mentioned above.
Edited to remove references to manual gearboxes
Edited by ATM on Thursday 8th December 08:18
ATM said:
997 manual gearboxes are known to self destruct also and a rebuild can cost 4 grand.
Really? This is the first that I hear about it, I thought they were bullet-proof.Talking exhaust sound again: I think the 997.1 sounds nicer than a 997.2, and may be even nicer than a 991.1. But I will never dare to take that jump (IMS, bore scoring stories etc).
Another thing: the steering feel of the 997.2 comes closer to driving the 718 GT4 than the steering feel of the 991.1 does. In that respect, maybe better to look at the 997 generation, and not 991.
Been there done that!
Had a Boxster S, then went Coupe 997 when we had kids. Missed the roof off experience - and so after a few years had a 991.1 S cab (make sure It's got the sports exhaust option). Now got a 991.2 Turbo cab (lot quieter, and there isn't a sports exhaust option).
Found with the coupe - you were a bit more likely to feel you had to drive it hard/quick to enjoy it - whereas with the cab, you don't have to drive it quite so hard to enjoy it. Roof down & chill.
Not to mention - as someone who's always done my best to get cars that depreciate less, there are less cabs so you are better off.
And you can't beat an experience like this.....
Had a Boxster S, then went Coupe 997 when we had kids. Missed the roof off experience - and so after a few years had a 991.1 S cab (make sure It's got the sports exhaust option). Now got a 991.2 Turbo cab (lot quieter, and there isn't a sports exhaust option).
Found with the coupe - you were a bit more likely to feel you had to drive it hard/quick to enjoy it - whereas with the cab, you don't have to drive it quite so hard to enjoy it. Roof down & chill.
Not to mention - as someone who's always done my best to get cars that depreciate less, there are less cabs so you are better off.
And you can't beat an experience like this.....
PaulD86 said:
However, to drive, it just didn't compete with the 997.2. The power seemed to come higher up the rev range and with the tall gearing that Porsche love, you seemed to need to be near 60 before the car was in its stride. Coming off a roundabout in 2nd in the 997 it felt like it just wanted to go. In the 991 it felt a bit flat until you got right up the rev range. The steering was also not as good. It didn't have the feel and I never felt I could place it as well as the 997.
Agreed on the booting it out of slow corners. It's the 9x1 gearing. It's either skitting about as you're stuck at the top end of 1st or bogging down in 2nd, as you need to be going 40mph+ for it to in the sweet spot in 2nd.It's a constant state of blue balls.
ATM said:
I did too. I had one implode on my 996. Pics below from my specialist who told me it was not worth repairing.
Then I started to dig and I realised this was quite common but no one talks about it - I am trying to change that. I had to buy a used replacement and there were none to be found in the UK. If you want to get a feel for this then just look at the price for used gearboxes on eBay. Sports and Classic are well known for their rebuilds - link below. Porsche still sell new gearboxes and they are around 10 grand for a 996. That might be plus VAT. That's just a basic simple gearbox where the gears splash round in a bath of oil. Nothing more. It includes the diff as its all in one unit.
https://sportsandclassic.com/porsche-gearbox-repai...
Any gearbox can let go and it is very dependent on how the car is driven, but 997 manual box actually has a well earned reputation for longevity - most "failures" being due to linkage rather than the box itself. That said there are some tales on woe on the forums, just not many. But early cars are nearly 20 years old, and some have done huge mileages, so rebuilds of all sorts are to be expected.Then I started to dig and I realised this was quite common but no one talks about it - I am trying to change that. I had to buy a used replacement and there were none to be found in the UK. If you want to get a feel for this then just look at the price for used gearboxes on eBay. Sports and Classic are well known for their rebuilds - link below. Porsche still sell new gearboxes and they are around 10 grand for a 996. That might be plus VAT. That's just a basic simple gearbox where the gears splash round in a bath of oil. Nothing more. It includes the diff as its all in one unit.
https://sportsandclassic.com/porsche-gearbox-repai...
ATM said:
I believe the 2nd gear synchro is a known weak point. I also believe it is uprated over the 996 - the 2nd gear synchro. On the 996 its gearbox whine you need to listen out for. This can be terminal. And yes failures can just happen. But it is reasonably common on the 996. Way more than most other cars of this era. Normally you can just forget about the manual box in most cars and assume it will be fine when buying a car of this era. But that's not so with the 996 and I believe the 997 also as it is basically the same gearbox.
They are different boxes made by different people (although interchangeable fitment wise)997 is a revised design by Japanese manufacturer Aisin Seiki .
The 996 - with the longer ratios and problems you describe - is made by Getrag.
Edited by Discombobulate on Thursday 8th December 07:58
Discombobulate said:
They are different boxes made by different people (although interchangeable fitment wise)
997 is a revised design by Japanese manufucturer Aisin Seiki .
The 996 - with the longer ratios and problems you describe - is made by Getrag.
Thanks997 is a revised design by Japanese manufucturer Aisin Seiki .
The 996 - with the longer ratios and problems you describe - is made by Getrag.
Never knew this
Great to know
Makes my want for a 997 increase massively
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