Carrera 3.2 - F/R Spoiler removal
Discussion
In '89 I bought a '87 Carrera 3.2 Coupe which I kept for 6 happy years. At the time, I reckoned it to be one of the all time great driving machines. Time hasn't changed that and I am delighted to have just aquired an excellent, if virtually identical 3.2 SC Carrera, that I intend to use as a daily driver.
However I would like to remove the front and rear spoilers to achieve the classic profile. To make it reversible, I intend to get hold of a 'flat'(non sport)engine lid, rather than alter the original.
Here's the point: I know you neeed to remove both F/R spoilers and that this was indeed a factory option. However I keeep hearing stories that the car will be considerably less stable, if you do this. Clearly to an extent this must be expected - Porsche didn't fit them for nothing.
But to what extent and has anyone out there actually done this and did you really notice any undesirable side effects, below say 100 mph?
However I would like to remove the front and rear spoilers to achieve the classic profile. To make it reversible, I intend to get hold of a 'flat'(non sport)engine lid, rather than alter the original.
Here's the point: I know you neeed to remove both F/R spoilers and that this was indeed a factory option. However I keeep hearing stories that the car will be considerably less stable, if you do this. Clearly to an extent this must be expected - Porsche didn't fit them for nothing.
But to what extent and has anyone out there actually done this and did you really notice any undesirable side effects, below say 100 mph?
I don't know what it would be like without spoilers, but I've driven mine, with them, right through the range of it's capabilities.
Mine only begins to become noticably unstable from about 140, and mine tops out at 147 (Indicated). My gut feeling is that the spoilers only really make a significant difference from perhaps 130, maybe a bit more.
Below 100, I doubt you'd notice they're not there.
Mine only begins to become noticably unstable from about 140, and mine tops out at 147 (Indicated). My gut feeling is that the spoilers only really make a significant difference from perhaps 130, maybe a bit more.
Below 100, I doubt you'd notice they're not there.
Main reason for asking was that this guy said that he did it and at 130mph during a m-way forced sudden lane change, the car started to fishtail and he narrowly escaped Game Over.
However it emerged that he had left the front spoiler attached - so his story not really relavent.
The 100mph is just a nominal UK speed that I selected as an everyday max. What I'm trying to ascertain is whether the scenario above would have happened if the front spoiler had of been removed.
However it emerged that he had left the front spoiler attached - so his story not really relavent.
The 100mph is just a nominal UK speed that I selected as an everyday max. What I'm trying to ascertain is whether the scenario above would have happened if the front spoiler had of been removed.
Again, I'm not really that qualified to say, but the front spoiler "lip" will make a bit of a difference, but it's not like we're talking about a really big splitter.
Neither of the spoilers are doing that much. I'd not think of them as producing "downforce" per-se, more that they are encoraging turbulence, such that the natural shape doesn't induce lift.
Neither of the spoilers are doing that much. I'd not think of them as producing "downforce" per-se, more that they are encoraging turbulence, such that the natural shape doesn't induce lift.
You will be fine, ask anyone with a non-sport 3.2. As you rightly say point is taking either front or rear off and leaving the other on. To all intents and purposes it wont make a difference. I have driven my 3.2 (sport) alongside a non-sport car on track, no noticeable difference. Maybe at the top end it will be a bit light. Like others have said, you're not going to be dashing around at 130mph in the UK. If you are, forget the looks, keep the spoilers!
SNAP.
I had a 1987 3.2 Carrra Coupe a coupe of years ago and loved it to bits. I removed the rear spoiler and replaced it with a flat lid (keeping the tea tray spoiler and lid), but left the front spoiler on.
At speeds upto 120mph I didn't notice any noticeable effects.
Like you I've just bought another 1987 3.2 Carrera Coupe which has just had new Bilstein shocks all round, turbo tie rods and strut brace which give it a much improved feel.
Haven't decided whether I'm going to go down the flat engine lid route again (probably will as IMHO it looks great).
I had a 1987 3.2 Carrra Coupe a coupe of years ago and loved it to bits. I removed the rear spoiler and replaced it with a flat lid (keeping the tea tray spoiler and lid), but left the front spoiler on.
At speeds upto 120mph I didn't notice any noticeable effects.
Like you I've just bought another 1987 3.2 Carrera Coupe which has just had new Bilstein shocks all round, turbo tie rods and strut brace which give it a much improved feel.
Haven't decided whether I'm going to go down the flat engine lid route again (probably will as IMHO it looks great).
I've owned examples of both sport and non-sport and can confirm that up to 130 mph there's no discernable difference. I didn't ever max my non-sport, so can't comment on speeds above that. I also never had to perform an "Elk Test" so can't comment on stability of either under that manoeuvre. I would dispute Dilbert's comment that the rear spoiler does anything - why would Porsche bother to fit it if it didn't...?
In the early '90s a number of people I know looked at fitting 964 rear spoilers to their SCs and 3.2s. Only one succeeded - it involved major surgery to accomodate the mechanism in the engine bay
In the early '90s a number of people I know looked at fitting 964 rear spoilers to their SCs and 3.2s. Only one succeeded - it involved major surgery to accomodate the mechanism in the engine bay
Hi Mike
The SC is actually a 3 litre engine, so it's either a 3.2 Carrera or an SC.
Advice that I've seen regarding spoilers (I only have experience of sports models) is that no spoilers is definitely less stable than with spoilers but I don't know at what speed things become significant. I would agree that without spoilers is more pure to look at, but considering the ability that these cars have to catch you out when the rear end goes, I would opt for as much stability as you can possibly get.
What I do know is that it is a complete no no to remove the rear and keep the front or vice-versa. It has to be either both or none which I assume also means that if you want a 964 type rear you must keep the front spoiler.
The SC is actually a 3 litre engine, so it's either a 3.2 Carrera or an SC.
Advice that I've seen regarding spoilers (I only have experience of sports models) is that no spoilers is definitely less stable than with spoilers but I don't know at what speed things become significant. I would agree that without spoilers is more pure to look at, but considering the ability that these cars have to catch you out when the rear end goes, I would opt for as much stability as you can possibly get.
What I do know is that it is a complete no no to remove the rear and keep the front or vice-versa. It has to be either both or none which I assume also means that if you want a 964 type rear you must keep the front spoiler.
Thanks guys and to avoid confusion it's a 3.2 Carrera Sport Coupe, not a 3.0 SC!
Going back to the point,it's clear that the r/spoiler increases down force on the rear wheels not just in a staight line, but during cornering also. Basically the increased down force must give increased rear end grip.
So a bespoilerd cars rear end will always breakaway at higher speeds or 'G' than a std car, even if you (foolishly) lift off.
Hmmmmm.........
>> Edited by CRBox on Monday 5th September 11:11
Going back to the point,it's clear that the r/spoiler increases down force on the rear wheels not just in a staight line, but during cornering also. Basically the increased down force must give increased rear end grip.
So a bespoilerd cars rear end will always breakaway at higher speeds or 'G' than a std car, even if you (foolishly) lift off.
Hmmmmm.........
>> Edited by CRBox on Monday 5th September 11:11
Just to be anal 
I recall reading a thread on here all about spoilers and wings and I think the conclusion was that no spoilers create downforce only defuse the air to reduce lift. Only a wing can create downforce.
As for your question, I've never driven a 911 but I do love the 3.2s and it would have to be without the spoilers, they just look so much more timeless that way, especially living in the UK
I recall reading a thread on here all about spoilers and wings and I think the conclusion was that no spoilers create downforce only defuse the air to reduce lift. Only a wing can create downforce.
As for your question, I've never driven a 911 but I do love the 3.2s and it would have to be without the spoilers, they just look so much more timeless that way, especially living in the UK
mr_yogi said:
As for your question, I've never driven a 911 but I do love the 3.2s and it would have to be without the spoilers, they just look so much more timeless that way, especially living in the UK
Naturally I agree. Funny thing is, when I bought the previous one, in '89 - non-sports were unwanted and the advice was to get the winged version or never be able to sell it.
Times, buyers and tastes change, but classical forms eventually emerge as winners.
When I hit a fast downhill right hander leading onto a narrow stone bridge in the wet, I'll just have to remember that I removed the bits that would have given me more grip............
>> Edited by CRBox on Monday 5th September 13:31
rubystone said:
I've owned examples of both sport and non-sport and can confirm that up to 130 mph there's no discernable difference. I didn't ever max my non-sport, so can't comment on speeds above that. I also never had to perform an "Elk Test" so can't comment on stability of either under that manoeuvre. I would dispute Dilbert's comment that the rear spoiler does anything - why would Porsche bother to fit it if it didn't...?
In the early '90s a number of people I know looked at fitting 964 rear spoilers to their SCs and 3.2s. Only one succeeded - it involved major surgery to accomodate the mechanism in the engine bay
I didn't say that it doesn't do anything. I just said that it doesn't generate downforce, as a result of a considerable angle of attack, in free flowing air. To my mind that's what a "big spoiler" does.
The "tea tray", and "duck tail", and the "automatic 964" spoilers simply break the airflow over the rear of the vehicle creating turbulence where laminar airflow would have encoraged lift.
There is quite a big difference between these two concepts. The turbulence idea, causes far less drag, for a given ammount of lift cancellation, but you don't get much downforce.
The angle of attack approach gives loads of downforce, but you pay in terms of drag.
Edited to add;
I think that the thing that is missing is that the tea tray spoiler is more just a vane atop the wing that is a 911.
>> Edited by dilbert on Monday 5th September 21:55
paultje said:
I have also considered this in the past. I then read an article from someone who did the dirty deed and commented that the cooling was affected. Porsche fitted them not just for stability! Still if you remove the back one you must remove the front, as you probably know.
With this I wouldn't argue. The only thing I was really getting at is that the guy who experienced considerable instability at 130 with a front and no rear spoiler did so, more because of the lack or the rear spoiler than the presence of the front one.
I'm not going to argue with Paul Frere!
Not that I know from experience, but I reckon you're right about the cooling effect.
>> Edited by dilbert on Tuesday 6th September 01:20
Not heard the cooling being an issue? Plenty of non-sport cars see track action and I havent heard of any being adversely affected by cooling. Its not like the 3.2 suffers from cooling issues anyway.
I wouldnt worry about it, if you want them off, take them off, as you say the only important thing is taking them both off.
I wouldnt worry about it, if you want them off, take them off, as you say the only important thing is taking them both off.
h_____ said:
Not heard the cooling being an issue? Plenty of non-sport cars see track action and I havent heard of any being adversely affected by cooling. Its not like the 3.2 suffers from cooling issues anyway.
I wouldnt worry about it, if you want them off, take them off, as you say the only important thing is taking them both off.
I can tell you havn't hung around in traffic on a hot day in a 3.2C. I'm not saying that the spoiler would make any difference to that circumstance, before someone starts digging, just that you must be out there somewhere, if you don't think that 911's can get hot!
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