GT3 vs Noble GT0
Discussion
Anyone driven both extensively? Thinking of buying one or the other for road and track use and having difficulty deciding.
Is there much difference between the Club Sport and Comfort GT3. I'm leaning towards the Club Sport as it will be doing quite a lot of trackdays but they don't seem as commonplace. Does the single mass flywheel of the Club make much difference?
What's the going rate for a RHD GT3 privately? Circa £55k?
Thanks.
Is there much difference between the Club Sport and Comfort GT3. I'm leaning towards the Club Sport as it will be doing quite a lot of trackdays but they don't seem as commonplace. Does the single mass flywheel of the Club make much difference?
What's the going rate for a RHD GT3 privately? Circa £55k?
Thanks.
What a lovely dilema you have. After a recent track session in a Noble I decided that if I was ever in the fortunate position to have £50K ish to spend I could not think of a better car to spend it on than the Noble. However after a good look at Guys Ultima if it were possible to replicate his car for the budget it would be a huge tempation.
The GT3 however has to be in my eyes the only viable Porsche alternative for the budget. ( although older 964RS & 993RS must also be contenders) Its advantage must be its ability to soak up repeated track day punishment and still remain fresh as that is what it was designed to do. Of the 2 hard trackdayed Nobles Ive seen, one had to leave a recent session early with problems and the other was suffering a bit so I guess that is its downside.
I would go for the Clubsport GT3 if you can find one, the single mass flywheel is more suited to your use and is quicker revving than the duel mass item, plus the CS comes with the cage already fitted etc.
Price wise if you can find a RHD clubsport for £55k in good condition I think it will be the best buy.
My only other thought is the promised 2003 release on the new GT3 at £75k 'ish' may bring down the earlier generation GT3's, so it may be worth waiting till next year to see if the prices do drop.
>> Edited by iguana on Monday 28th October 11:04
The GT3 however has to be in my eyes the only viable Porsche alternative for the budget. ( although older 964RS & 993RS must also be contenders) Its advantage must be its ability to soak up repeated track day punishment and still remain fresh as that is what it was designed to do. Of the 2 hard trackdayed Nobles Ive seen, one had to leave a recent session early with problems and the other was suffering a bit so I guess that is its downside.
I would go for the Clubsport GT3 if you can find one, the single mass flywheel is more suited to your use and is quicker revving than the duel mass item, plus the CS comes with the cage already fitted etc.
Price wise if you can find a RHD clubsport for £55k in good condition I think it will be the best buy.
My only other thought is the promised 2003 release on the new GT3 at £75k 'ish' may bring down the earlier generation GT3's, so it may be worth waiting till next year to see if the prices do drop.
>> Edited by iguana on Monday 28th October 11:04
There is a privately advertised Yellow GT3 Club Sport with comfort pack on 911uk.com - it's yellow and he's asking £62k with 21k mls. Might be able to bargain him into your price range.(Jonathan Staffordshire 01283820699)
I wasn't aware they did a club sport with comfort pack - i thought it was either or but hey.
I wasn't aware they did a club sport with comfort pack - i thought it was either or but hey.
Thanks for your response Iguana - pretty much sums up my thinking at the moment.
An Ultima was on my shortlist too but the others probably make a more sensible, all-round package. I also considered a Gemballa GTR600 that's for sale at the moment. Like the Ultima, I'm concerned about the reliability of the Gemballa and whether or not my local Porsche dealer would be capable of sorting any running problems. Plus, the big torque in both these cars would be a bit of a handful in damp conditions.
Had thought about the new 996 RS but it's a bit away and getting quite pricey.
Senator, thanks for the lead but yellow cars are not my cup of tea. Just to make things difficult for myself, I'm specifically looking for a black GT3. I know of one for sale in London but it isn't a UK RHD car. Cheers anyway.
>> Edited by AL001 on Monday 28th October 16:25
An Ultima was on my shortlist too but the others probably make a more sensible, all-round package. I also considered a Gemballa GTR600 that's for sale at the moment. Like the Ultima, I'm concerned about the reliability of the Gemballa and whether or not my local Porsche dealer would be capable of sorting any running problems. Plus, the big torque in both these cars would be a bit of a handful in damp conditions.
Had thought about the new 996 RS but it's a bit away and getting quite pricey.
Senator, thanks for the lead but yellow cars are not my cup of tea. Just to make things difficult for myself, I'm specifically looking for a black GT3. I know of one for sale in London but it isn't a UK RHD car. Cheers anyway.
>> Edited by AL001 on Monday 28th October 16:25
Page 1, GT3 Owner's Manual :
"Your new 911 GT3 was not created by some computer. It was created on the race track.
It is pure racing car.
Based on the 911.
With racing-car technology.
It incorprates parts developed for use in motor racing. Tested under the toughest conditions. On the race track. On all the Grand Prix circuits, and on the Nordschleife section of the Nurburgring.
Your new 911 GT3 is Porsche through and through. It brooks no compromise on the race circuit. Yet it is suitable for everyday trips to the shops."
Page 6 :
Motor racing
"For reasons of safety, the braking system, steering, running gear, wheels and tyres should be checked after every race."
Go get one !
"Your new 911 GT3 was not created by some computer. It was created on the race track.
It is pure racing car.
Based on the 911.
With racing-car technology.
It incorprates parts developed for use in motor racing. Tested under the toughest conditions. On the race track. On all the Grand Prix circuits, and on the Nordschleife section of the Nurburgring.
Your new 911 GT3 is Porsche through and through. It brooks no compromise on the race circuit. Yet it is suitable for everyday trips to the shops."
Page 6 :
Motor racing
"For reasons of safety, the braking system, steering, running gear, wheels and tyres should be checked after every race."
Go get one !
Also -
Club sport differences :
Single mass flywheel - noisy at idle and easy to stall.
Keeps revs higher between changes.
Emergency cut-off switches, one in front of gearlever and one under bonnet. Looks cool.
No side airbags.
No centre console under dash.
Rear rollcage, occasionally full cage depending on whether car supplied with front part, as it is illegal to fit. (nasty headache if you forget your seatbelt and launch head at front bar) Also, front cage makes ingress/egress a pain, and the car even stiffer.
Driver's six-point Schroth harness, occasionally passsenger side too.
Fire extinguisher mounted in passenger footwell.
Fire-retardent fabric covered one piece racing seats.
Club sport differences :
Single mass flywheel - noisy at idle and easy to stall.
Keeps revs higher between changes.
Emergency cut-off switches, one in front of gearlever and one under bonnet. Looks cool.
No side airbags.
No centre console under dash.
Rear rollcage, occasionally full cage depending on whether car supplied with front part, as it is illegal to fit. (nasty headache if you forget your seatbelt and launch head at front bar) Also, front cage makes ingress/egress a pain, and the car even stiffer.
Driver's six-point Schroth harness, occasionally passsenger side too.
Fire extinguisher mounted in passenger footwell.
Fire-retardent fabric covered one piece racing seats.
get a GT3. Had mine a year now. Done a couple of track days, 7000 miles flat out abroad, (have a Slovakian girlfriend, so good excuse to visit the parents and give car a good thrashing! plus pop in to Alois and Estonia RUF on the way back!) Done about 15,000 miles so far. Not a single problem. Doesn't cost any more to run than a standard 911 either. Very strong car, totally awsome. Can't ever see myself selling it!!!!!
Was up against a Noble last year at Oulton Park on a track day, overall impression was of a stunningly fast car in a straight line that I could comfortably outbrake and outcorner in every bend, resulting in much frustration on my part. Looked pretty though.
As for GT3, the major problems have been in the brakes department and it has a reputation for consuming discs. May I suggest that if you want a lap after lap after lap car look no further than the 964RS or the 993RS? OK, the chassis is not as sophisticated as the GT3, but if you can afford £70k on a car, logic may prevent you from thinking that a £30k car can never be as good. However the cheapest way to severely embarrass a GT3 is to put Motec and sticky track tyres onto the 964RS, and if you want more then a reassuringly expensive suspension upgrade will have it driving around the outside of the GT3 around bends (could you ever call an RS a Q car?).
I know that there is more to consider than just performance, But all I am saying is that if you are open minded there are more options than just a choice of two new models.
As for GT3, the major problems have been in the brakes department and it has a reputation for consuming discs. May I suggest that if you want a lap after lap after lap car look no further than the 964RS or the 993RS? OK, the chassis is not as sophisticated as the GT3, but if you can afford £70k on a car, logic may prevent you from thinking that a £30k car can never be as good. However the cheapest way to severely embarrass a GT3 is to put Motec and sticky track tyres onto the 964RS, and if you want more then a reassuringly expensive suspension upgrade will have it driving around the outside of the GT3 around bends (could you ever call an RS a Q car?).
I know that there is more to consider than just performance, But all I am saying is that if you are open minded there are more options than just a choice of two new models.
nick644 -
Whats you GT3 like to drive?, I have a 996 (2002) targa and would love to have a 996tt but the cost jump is very high.
I thought that a GT3 would bridge the gap. (im used to hard rided from Caterhams)
What the difference between a GT3 and Turbo for driving and fun etc. It would be for road use and 4-6 track days a year.
why go for a 996tt or a GT3 ??
Your insights would be appreciated so i know if I have to sell my other kidney and eye.
Whats you GT3 like to drive?, I have a 996 (2002) targa and would love to have a 996tt but the cost jump is very high.
I thought that a GT3 would bridge the gap. (im used to hard rided from Caterhams)
What the difference between a GT3 and Turbo for driving and fun etc. It would be for road use and 4-6 track days a year.
why go for a 996tt or a GT3 ??
Your insights would be appreciated so i know if I have to sell my other kidney and eye.
GT3 Brakes
The front brakes on the GT3 have a limited amount of air cooling therefore inexperienced drivers who brake long and early will put so much heat into the discs that they will complain. Brake performance is unaffected but drivers confidence is. Porsche racing parts divison have an off the shelf solution. This is in the form of improved ducting. Allied to Pagid Blue pads and Castrol response fluid the problem can be resolved. Once the driver gets used to the car and brakes so much later this also helps reuce the heat sink problem. Not many cars outperfom a well driven GT3 on track. Single seaters, open sports cars (like radicals)and seriously modified barely road legal cars provide the only true competition. As an alternative the 964 RS remains extremely good value as a track car but not many would want to drive it on the road on a regular basis.
Clubsport - only 28 rhd drive cars in the UK according to Porsche at Reading. This may have been reduced as we hear that 1 or 2 of these may have been written off. For a guide on second hand values look at Porsches used car section on their web site.
GJB
The front brakes on the GT3 have a limited amount of air cooling therefore inexperienced drivers who brake long and early will put so much heat into the discs that they will complain. Brake performance is unaffected but drivers confidence is. Porsche racing parts divison have an off the shelf solution. This is in the form of improved ducting. Allied to Pagid Blue pads and Castrol response fluid the problem can be resolved. Once the driver gets used to the car and brakes so much later this also helps reuce the heat sink problem. Not many cars outperfom a well driven GT3 on track. Single seaters, open sports cars (like radicals)and seriously modified barely road legal cars provide the only true competition. As an alternative the 964 RS remains extremely good value as a track car but not many would want to drive it on the road on a regular basis.
Clubsport - only 28 rhd drive cars in the UK according to Porsche at Reading. This may have been reduced as we hear that 1 or 2 of these may have been written off. For a guide on second hand values look at Porsches used car section on their web site.
GJB
GJB,
I have heard you comments many times before and on the face of it would agree. This is the standard response that Porsche have put out to keep everyone quitet. BUT I have one customer who got a refund in full from his main dealer because the GT3 brakes were "unfit for their intended purpose"; he has raced cars and won championships and is no dummy behind the wheel, so when the car failed to do more than 5 laps ok Knockhill before the brakes warped and shook the car to pieces, the Dealer Principal had little choice. I don't want to make a big deal out of it, but are we all faced with fixing a fault on a £75,000 car just so that you can drive it as it was intended? That's my point.
Either way, you cannot consider the Noble an everyday car but I generally agree, given a choice of new only everyday and track use car, the GT3 is the b*****ks and would have my money; but if I HAD £75,000 I would buy a 964RS CS and a 993RS for everyday.
I have heard you comments many times before and on the face of it would agree. This is the standard response that Porsche have put out to keep everyone quitet. BUT I have one customer who got a refund in full from his main dealer because the GT3 brakes were "unfit for their intended purpose"; he has raced cars and won championships and is no dummy behind the wheel, so when the car failed to do more than 5 laps ok Knockhill before the brakes warped and shook the car to pieces, the Dealer Principal had little choice. I don't want to make a big deal out of it, but are we all faced with fixing a fault on a £75,000 car just so that you can drive it as it was intended? That's my point.
Either way, you cannot consider the Noble an everyday car but I generally agree, given a choice of new only everyday and track use car, the GT3 is the b*****ks and would have my money; but if I HAD £75,000 I would buy a 964RS CS and a 993RS for everyday.
My Noble makes a very good everyday car. GT3's look like great cars but i can't see how they would live with an M12 on a track bearing in mind how easily we dispatched of a couple of standard carrera's around Silverstone ? Are GT3's that much quicker ?
>> Edited by stuh on Thursday 31st October 18:32
>> Edited by stuh on Thursday 31st October 18:32
Hi Superlight
Well, I use my GT3 pretty well every day. Apart from the apalling ground clearance, which can be a serious pain at times, multi storey car parks and hotel car park ramps are a particular problem, the car is almost perfect. The ride in general is pretty smooth. I've had the front end soften up a little which gives it better handling on bumpy roads. It can shake a few fillings out of your head when it hits pot holes, but feels very smooth on motorways. The engine is just a peach, extremely smooth right up to 8,000 revs. As long as you can put up with the ground clearance, which you get use to......slowing down to 2mph over speed bumps and watching out for heavy dips in the road, etc, can't recommend it highly enough. Driven several Turbos, (including a 540bhp RUF one). Very quick in a straight line, much more so than a GT3, but feels a bit soggy, no feeling from the steering wheel, very soft brake pedal. I felt the car was driving me, especially when the turbos spool up, clinging on to the steering wheel with my finger tips. Doesn't give you the feeling you want to take it by the scruff of it's neck and drive it at ten tenths, like you want to do with the GT3 everytime you drive it. Still, the turbo is a superb car and I'm sure I would also be very happy with it as a daily proposition, it's just different. Depends what you want really.
Well, I use my GT3 pretty well every day. Apart from the apalling ground clearance, which can be a serious pain at times, multi storey car parks and hotel car park ramps are a particular problem, the car is almost perfect. The ride in general is pretty smooth. I've had the front end soften up a little which gives it better handling on bumpy roads. It can shake a few fillings out of your head when it hits pot holes, but feels very smooth on motorways. The engine is just a peach, extremely smooth right up to 8,000 revs. As long as you can put up with the ground clearance, which you get use to......slowing down to 2mph over speed bumps and watching out for heavy dips in the road, etc, can't recommend it highly enough. Driven several Turbos, (including a 540bhp RUF one). Very quick in a straight line, much more so than a GT3, but feels a bit soggy, no feeling from the steering wheel, very soft brake pedal. I felt the car was driving me, especially when the turbos spool up, clinging on to the steering wheel with my finger tips. Doesn't give you the feeling you want to take it by the scruff of it's neck and drive it at ten tenths, like you want to do with the GT3 everytime you drive it. Still, the turbo is a superb car and I'm sure I would also be very happy with it as a daily proposition, it's just different. Depends what you want really.
done 15,000 miles Haven't found it any more expensive than a carrera, though the front spoiler lip will need replacing soon due to ground clearance problems, (£80), mind you I have had the front end changed by RUF, with turbo look lights/spoiler so it now has the thin black spoiler lip to scrape rather the painted spoiler of the original car.
>> Edited by nick644 on Thursday 31st October 21:43
>> Edited by nick644 on Thursday 31st October 21:43
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