Going to buy a 911

[dubbs]

Hi folks,
I've been going through the posts in the Porsche forum for a while looking for 993 964 comparisons and have beeen doing some reading up too. I've been a regular on here for many a year coming from a TVR background (mainly). Decided its time to get another sportscar and want to avoid TVR running costs/problems.

I thinking of buying a 964 in the New Year, around February if plan goes well, and wondered if you guys could answer a couple of quickies for me. I know some have been answered before but I can't find SPECIFIC answers that relate to the 964.

1. C2/C4
I get the fact that the C2 is more "purist" and C4 better in wet but I've had Cerbera/Esprit/Evo and prefer a RWD normally. So, is the C4 going to disappoint? Can I get it setup to have less of an understeer? Is it going to be a problem area on a 964 bearing in mind age/mileage of a car? Does it knacker the bootspace a lot more than having a C2?

2. Tip or not?
No, not down the local curry house! What's the tip like on the 964? The car will do a fair amount of town work around Kent and SE London generally! I'm looking to do about 8-10 trackdays a year on top. Is the tip a lot different to that on the 993? Your comments appreciated.

3. 964 vs 993
The LONG debate!!! Are these 964s really as bad as people make out on the running costs? What's the performance differences? I think I prefer the 964s styling, slightly more agressive/traditional at the front... not 100% made my mind up.

I'm going to have about 16-20k to spend. I will want to get the car into a light mod state, suspension, brakes and exhaust/breathing. I'll do about £6-8k a year and most will be suburban if I'm truthful to myself.

So... you're thoughts (apart from wishing you hadn't started reading this huge post!!!!)

[leosayer]

964 C2/C4 Boot space is pretty much the same. Both cars understeer by default although the C2 can be made to oversteer if you have a lot of space or want to frighten yourself. I don't think a C4 will dissappoint unless you take the car on a track, although there are mods you can make for more track fun.

Tip only available on 964 C2. It won't dissappoint although with that amount of track days, I'd be looking for a manual.

Running costs can be horrific if you buy any bad p-car. For a 964, if you budget £1500pa then that should cover you. Make sure you buy a good one. For your budget you should get a very well looked after 964 or a LHD 993 in so-so condition.

The 993 is a more modern car and feels it compared to the 964 however I doubt you would notice the extra hp of the 993.

[koenig999]

dubbs said ..

'I'll do about £6-8k a year'

Hopefully it will be cheaper than that, although you never know....

Koenig

[dubbs]

Oops!! I meant 6-8k miles!!!

I've decided I really don't want to spend over 20k so I'm pretty sure a 993 will be out of budget.

[domster]

dubbs said:

1. C2/C4 I get the fact that the C2 is more "purist" and C4 better in wet but I've had Cerbera/Esprit/Evo and prefer a RWD normally. So, is the C4 going to disappoint? Can I get it setup to have less of an understeer? Is it going to be a problem area on a 964 bearing in mind age/mileage of a car? Does it knacker the bootspace a lot more than having a C2?

No, C4 shouldn't disappoint with some decent suspension and the right geometry. I loved bergs2's 984 C4 at the n'ring when my mate owned it. Not a big problem as many suspension kits out there and many people who are good setting them up; you can go for the full 964 Cup kit or H&Rs etc.

dubbs said:

2. Tip or not? No, not down the local curry house! What's the tip like on the 964? The car will do a fair amount of town work around Kent and SE London generally! I'm looking to do about 8-10 trackdays a year on top. Is the tip a lot different to that on the 993? Your comments appreciated.

Not a lot of experience of 964 tips. I'd say avoid as the G50 box is nice, the tips I have driven have been a tad characterless/less involved to drive in comparison, is a bit slower and the market doesn't like them so resale could be trickier. Just find a C2 coupe in manual and you'll be happy.

dubbs said:

3. 964 vs 993 The LONG debate!!! Are these 964s really as bad as people make out on the running costs? What's the performance differences? I think I prefer the 964s styling, slightly more agressive/traditional at the front... not 100% made my mind up.

A 964 will in general cost more to service. And 964s are a bit older so more things may need attending to. But get a good 964 and there's no problem; the costs are overplayed by scare stories and those who bought lemons. Watch out for oil leaks as many need engine rebuilds if not done already. Also, remember that the 993 is a much newer driving car than the 964... for character and tradition save your money and get the 964... for a modernity with classic Porscheness, you can't beat the 993. It is a step forward from the 964 for an everyday car... suspension if far better at the back and completely different design.

dubbs said:

I'm going to have about 16-20k to spend. I will want to get the car into a light mod state, suspension, brakes and exhaust/breathing. I'll do about 6-8k a year and most will be suburban if I'm truthful to myself.

Cool, you should get a good one for that money. Have a look at what tony.t has done to his 964 C2... basically an RS now. I'd recommend J-pipe secondary silencer bypass for the noise (I think someone is selling one in PH Porsche classifieds), decat if early enough model year, remap, plus decent suspension. Budget maybe 3k for that lot. You could go a lot further but there's enough car there to entertain for years.

[marcevo1]

964 - not bad at all. everyone says 993 is better - and yes it is as its more modern etc....
but... a good 993 is a lot more dosh than a really good 964!
because the press dont like the 964 it reflects in the price - i personnally think they are within 10% of being as good as a 993 (and most of that is in the looks department).

c2/c4 - i really dont see the need for c4 - all performance cars are cr@p in the snow/wet so the extra weight / understeer is not worth jack IMO

try both and allow for clutches every 30k brakes every 20k shocks all round every 40k and you will be fine - ideally buy one which has had all these done (993 or 964)otherwise it turns a cheap car into a very expensive buy!

i have a 993 for sale but wouldnt hesitate getting a good 964.

likewise LHD/RHD - lhds are cheaper generally because they were imported at the time the exchange rate was good. They are just as good if not better (no off set pedals, tend to be better specs etc) i have had 3 cars in a row lhd with no complaints at all.

dont be fooled into a cheap tatty 993!

[dubbs]

So what would be my best bet for the 20k ceiling? I want something that's going to be a good, car, not be a complete money pit, can be regular transport and fun. Is this 993 territory? or is it firmly "good" 964 only? I've also considered a 13-14k 968 then use money to make top notch and supercharge. 911 is still the fave.

What sort of mileage should I start saying no too? Is 150,000 getting too leggy to hold on too, put 20k miles on it and keep for 2-3 years?

[verysideways]

Ok, i've gotta say something now - a late Carrera 3.2 coupe, in RHD, with low mileage and perfect condition should be tops £15k. Depreciation wise (especially if you can find a Clubsport) these have to be a wise option, and they are simple to maintain and thus cheap to run.

And you can pick up a very tidy 993 for £20k (i sold one 6 months ago) which will cost you less than either a 3.2 or a 964 to run.
Clutches should last at least 50k (mine on my C4S lasted 82k miles), brake pads are cheap, and discs should last way more than 20k and aren't expensive either.

Not to be anti 964 (i think it's the prettiest of the air cooled cars), but everyone i know who has had a 964 spent more on maintenance than people i know with 3.2's and 993's. Just an observation.

edit - www.gmundcars.com/cars/459/993c2rslook.html
i know it's a tip, but you get the idea...

>> Edited by verysideways on Tuesday 11th October 15:45

[Henry-F]

Just to pick up on something Domster said. Before doing a mid / back silencer bypass just be carefull you won`t fall foul of the noise meter on track days. 98 or 100db means you`ll probably fail and it`s a long drive home. More and more of the trackdays seem to be stipulating low noise these days and as a rule of thumb the quieter days are cheaper.

Henry

[dubbs]

That C2 is PERFECT!!! But it's LHD :-(

I have a real "issue" with LHD, I can't see me getting used to it on our roads and it must be a pain most of the time when being used as a daily driver surely?

I noticed a lovely 964 turbo in there - would love too but not going near those running costs!!! :-)

[dubbs]

Henry-F said:

Just to pick up on something Domster said. Before doing a mid / back silencer bypass just be carefull you won`t fall foul of the noise meter on track days. 98 or 100db means you`ll probably fail and it`s a long drive home. More and more of the trackdays seem to be stipulating low noise these days and as a rule of thumb the quieter days are cheaper. Henry

Thanks for the tip Henry - I've had real issues with this in the past with my old Cerberas and the Esprit Sport 350 (after I got rid of the rear silencer completely!!). I could always get a bolt on silencer to cover those issues and try to get it as on the "limit" as poss.

[domster]

Henry is right. The silencer bypass and decat can up dbs to about 105!!! Noisy days only and then it might just scrape it. Leave the exhaust standard, maybe just remove the cat when it gets buggered, if you plan on doing trackdays.

LHD is no problem. They were designed that way, so arguably they're a tad purer like that.

[dubbs]

But arguably a darn site more diffcult to use in the UK where we have ticket machines on the right and the ubiquitous McDonalds drive thru speakers (although I don't tend to go through drive thrus I must say!)

Also overtaking must be more awkward?

[verysideways]

I'm on my third lhd 993 - i went looking for rhd initially and loved the cars i saw and drove. I hadn't ever liked driving rhd 964/3.2 cars.
Then i drove a lhd 993 and the pedals, seat, and steering seemed so different.

Since then i have driven (and enjoyed) lhd 964's and 3.2's - i guess i just prefer the "original" way.

Car parks are a small problem, but usually when i go into town i have a passenger so no worries there.

And all the places where you can't see to overtake in a rhd car, you can in a lhd car, and vice-versa.

Just remember all those guys who drive LHD every day in E30 M3's, Integrale's, 911's, etc. Can't be that hard right?

Just some food for thought.

[dubbs]

Do you use it everyday or is it more of a toy though?

Why is the LHD better to drive then and what's the price premium for RHD/LHD?

Just thinking about whether it's an option and if so where I'd go to try one and possibly buy one.

[verysideways]

All three of my 993's have been daily drivers - in fact i've done 9k miles in my 993tt since mid April!!
Personally i prefer the pedals and steering of the lhd cars because they're not offset.
In a lhd air cooled car, you have a natural clutch foot rest because that's where the front wheel arch is. Thus the pedals are right in front of you. In the rhd cars, that position is not available for the accelerator, so all the pedals are offset and the clutch ends up almost on the centre line of the car (slight exaggeration, but you get the idea).
Rhd is fine for most - but if you try the lhd position you will prefer it, it's just a question of how much, and if you can cope with changing gear with your right hand (i prefer it) and car park ticket machines (i don't mind because i hate those carparks anyway, i never feel my car is very safe).

The 996's don't exhibit this at all though - only reason to get a lhd 996 is cos it's cheaper!

IMHO, etc.

VS

[cyberface]

LHD vs RHD is purely personal preference. It's no good feeling you've got a 'pure' car and a slightly straighter path to the clutch if you're not comfortable making overtaking manoeuvres.

If you're driving in Kent then you'll know damn well that it's so bloody congested and you have to make overtaking as easy and safe as possible.

Drive both and see what you think. I'm on my 3rd RHD 993 and I'd not choose a LHD car for mostly UK driving.

Servicing costs are the main difference if the well-catalogued weak points of the 964 have already been done... Porsche put effort into the 993 engine design to make it easier to service. My recent full service cost a grand total of £370 whereas the 964 service involves much more labour.

Forget 4wd, unless you're paranoid or have some serious engine mods. The standard motors don't need it IMO.

If you've got a 20k ceiling then I'd go for a good 964 that's had top end rebuild, the dizzy breather mod done, and whose brakes and clutch are in good nick.

[BERGS2]

domster said:

I loved bergs2's 984 C4 at the n'ring when my mate owned it

Cheers Dom the red beast is still going well!

cyberface said:

If you've got a 20k ceiling then I'd go for a good 964 that's had top end rebuild, the dizzy breather mod done, and whose brakes and clutch are in good nick.

absolutely agree

£20k should get you a stonking 964...

if you want specifics on the model, the rennlist forums are great online resource

[supersport]

LHD is no problem what so ever, takes all of five minutes to get used too. I regularly swap from my LHD 911 to RHD mondeo and don't notice the difference, apart from going v. slowly and feeling a bit sea sick.

Over taking is simple, you just have to think about it, so is possibly safer.

That 993 RS looky-like at Gmund is a pretty car, have seen it in the flesh, nothing wrong with it, apart from maybe the tip gear box.

You should be tempted by the 964 Turbo 2, it is a very sexy bit of kit and that particular car has just had a bit of money spent on it, yum yum

S

[Podie]

I'm actually in a similar position to Dubbs... love the Chimaera, but I've had two TVR's and fancy a change and find a 911 calling me. Budget is the same, although I'll be doing around 12k a year mileage wise. Not a huge fan of LHD either...