991.2 purchase. Financial sanity check.
Discussion
For a couple of years now I’ve been looking in the classifieds at 911s. But for one reason or another I’ve never gone beyond just looking.
I think the main thing that puts me off going to have a look at some cars and having a test drive etc. is that I’m hesitant to spend the money as it feels kind of reckless, and something that someone at “my level” shouldn’t do. That said I’m not put off enough to stop the constant browsing!
I thought I’d ask the internet and sound out people’s opinions on them, to see if a purchase would be a reasonable decision or end up being financially ruinous.
To provide a bit of background I’ve currently got a Cayenne e-Hybrid that’s coming up to 6 years old, it’s got a few months left on the warranty provided when it was purchased through an OPC. It will be due a full set of 22” N rated tyres around the time the warranty would be up for extension. I keep the car serviced with my OPC. Rough estimate for that little lot would be £4k in the next 12-18 months.
I feel like the (planned) running costs for a 911 would be not dissimilar to those for the Cayenne?
As for unplanned running costs, I have read up a little on the generation of 911 I’d be looking at (991.2) and it seems that the main concern is around turbo failure. This would probably be negated by the fact that I’d likely purchase through an OPC for the warranty, or possibly purchase through an indy, setting aside the rough difference in cost between OPC and Indy’s, which would go some way towards covering the cost of turbo replacement.
This is sort of balanced by the fact that I already have some worries about the high voltage battery on the Cayenne as it gets older. It is warranted for another 2 years or around 40k miles. After that I don’t believe that the Porsche extended warranty applies to the hybrid system of the vehicle. Google suggests that replacement of the battery is a similar cost to that of turbos on a 991.2.
Man maths suggests that the Cayenne will depreciate quicker and further than a 991.2.
I don’t really like mentioning figures but I feel it’s relevant to my question. Given the forum it’s being asked in and some of the vehicles people here have, it’s certainly not much of a brag nor ever intended as one.
From an income point of view, the Mrs and I both have salaries around the 65k mark, we’re in our 40s and we don’t have kids or plan to. We both contribute reasonable amounts to pensions though our employers, me 18% combined, her around 12%.
We also both make contributions to personal pensions / ISAs.
We do have a fairly large mortgage payment of around £2.4k fixed for the next 5 years, but no other debt.
We’re comfortable with this as we have a good amount left to live on each month after bills and savings.
We feel that financing a 911 through HP or a loan would take too much of a chunk out of our monthly budget hence why I’m thinking of going down the savings route. It would be my purchase rather than ours.
If I were to make a purchase I’d be using the value of the Cayenne as either sale or trade in. Online car buyers estimated its value at £35k. I’d then use some of my ISA savings to make up the difference. The portion of my savings I’d be comfortable spending means I’m looking at a budget in the region of 60-70k.
This would mean I’d be left with around 50-60k savings, that I’d still be contributing a small amount (£200-£300) to each month.
I guess some of what’s putting me off is that it feels like an unusual position where cash wise I feel like can afford the purchase, but if I were to do it on the “monthly” I couldn’t?
I’d look forward to reading people’s responses.
I think the main thing that puts me off going to have a look at some cars and having a test drive etc. is that I’m hesitant to spend the money as it feels kind of reckless, and something that someone at “my level” shouldn’t do. That said I’m not put off enough to stop the constant browsing!
I thought I’d ask the internet and sound out people’s opinions on them, to see if a purchase would be a reasonable decision or end up being financially ruinous.
To provide a bit of background I’ve currently got a Cayenne e-Hybrid that’s coming up to 6 years old, it’s got a few months left on the warranty provided when it was purchased through an OPC. It will be due a full set of 22” N rated tyres around the time the warranty would be up for extension. I keep the car serviced with my OPC. Rough estimate for that little lot would be £4k in the next 12-18 months.
I feel like the (planned) running costs for a 911 would be not dissimilar to those for the Cayenne?
As for unplanned running costs, I have read up a little on the generation of 911 I’d be looking at (991.2) and it seems that the main concern is around turbo failure. This would probably be negated by the fact that I’d likely purchase through an OPC for the warranty, or possibly purchase through an indy, setting aside the rough difference in cost between OPC and Indy’s, which would go some way towards covering the cost of turbo replacement.
This is sort of balanced by the fact that I already have some worries about the high voltage battery on the Cayenne as it gets older. It is warranted for another 2 years or around 40k miles. After that I don’t believe that the Porsche extended warranty applies to the hybrid system of the vehicle. Google suggests that replacement of the battery is a similar cost to that of turbos on a 991.2.
Man maths suggests that the Cayenne will depreciate quicker and further than a 991.2.
I don’t really like mentioning figures but I feel it’s relevant to my question. Given the forum it’s being asked in and some of the vehicles people here have, it’s certainly not much of a brag nor ever intended as one.
From an income point of view, the Mrs and I both have salaries around the 65k mark, we’re in our 40s and we don’t have kids or plan to. We both contribute reasonable amounts to pensions though our employers, me 18% combined, her around 12%.
We also both make contributions to personal pensions / ISAs.
We do have a fairly large mortgage payment of around £2.4k fixed for the next 5 years, but no other debt.
We’re comfortable with this as we have a good amount left to live on each month after bills and savings.
We feel that financing a 911 through HP or a loan would take too much of a chunk out of our monthly budget hence why I’m thinking of going down the savings route. It would be my purchase rather than ours.
If I were to make a purchase I’d be using the value of the Cayenne as either sale or trade in. Online car buyers estimated its value at £35k. I’d then use some of my ISA savings to make up the difference. The portion of my savings I’d be comfortable spending means I’m looking at a budget in the region of 60-70k.
This would mean I’d be left with around 50-60k savings, that I’d still be contributing a small amount (£200-£300) to each month.
I guess some of what’s putting me off is that it feels like an unusual position where cash wise I feel like can afford the purchase, but if I were to do it on the “monthly” I couldn’t?
I’d look forward to reading people’s responses.
The reason you can afford a cash purchase and not PCP is that you've been (and presumably continue to be) sensible enough to prioritise pensions and tax efficient investments ahead of hire purchase schemes. A model PH citizen in other words.
If your wider pension planning is in order than what are your savings for? As long as you're not recklessly borrowing from your future self then avoiding the need for a loan and interest payments is a good enough reason to spend some of those savings.
If your OH has a sensible car for tip runs and holidays then a 911 makes more sense than a Cayenne to me.
If your wider pension planning is in order than what are your savings for? As long as you're not recklessly borrowing from your future self then avoiding the need for a loan and interest payments is a good enough reason to spend some of those savings.
If your OH has a sensible car for tip runs and holidays then a 911 makes more sense than a Cayenne to me.
oddman said:
If your wider pension planning is in order than what are your savings for? As long as you're not recklessly borrowing from your future self then avoiding the need for a loan and interest payments is a good enough reason to spend some of those savings.
If your OH has a sensible car for tip runs and holidays then a 911 makes more sense than a Cayenne to me.
I guess that it stems from me being self employed a good few years back, early into it I was out of work for 6 months during the 2008 financial crisis, I’d been sensible and had a warchest that saw me through. After that I always thought I’ll be ok if I get to ‘x’, reached that figure, then ‘x‘ just increased and I’ve never really touched the money. Took permanent employment some years back but never lost my self employed mentality. If your OH has a sensible car for tip runs and holidays then a 911 makes more sense than a Cayenne to me.
We have a 12 year old hatchback that we run as the tip / dog car. which we intend to keep till it dies. Having said that, it’s on 150k so we do have to consider its replacement in the not too distant future.
Pretty much the biggest cost with every day cars is the depreciation, not the running costs. Your current Porsche will I image cost you are very large amount in depreciation. By contrast 991.2 pricing has been very flat since coming out of covid. Especially of you look at the T, or Turbo S models. Buy one with warranty or buy independent and then get a warranty. They are not much compared to the cost of the eye watering repairs that can happen on any Porsche - personally I’d never run one without especially the 3.0 turbo based ones.
I wager it will be much cheaper over the lifetime of ownership to own a 991.2 vs your Cayenne
I wager it will be much cheaper over the lifetime of ownership to own a 991.2 vs your Cayenne
Thanks.
It’s interesting that you mention lifetime of the vehicle for a couple of reasons.
The Cayenne feels like its ownership lifetime is limited due to the battery warranty expiring in a couple of years and the Porsche extended warranty not covering it. Had it been a full ICE model, the possibility of keeping it longer to offset its depreciation would be a good option.
Due to my financial circumstances I suspect the ownership lifetime of the 911 would be extended somewhat by the fact that I’m probably not adding enough back to my savings to change cars as frequently as I have in the past, which is roughly 3-4 years. This is possibly offset by lower depreciation?
It’s interesting that you mention lifetime of the vehicle for a couple of reasons.
The Cayenne feels like its ownership lifetime is limited due to the battery warranty expiring in a couple of years and the Porsche extended warranty not covering it. Had it been a full ICE model, the possibility of keeping it longer to offset its depreciation would be a good option.
Due to my financial circumstances I suspect the ownership lifetime of the 911 would be extended somewhat by the fact that I’m probably not adding enough back to my savings to change cars as frequently as I have in the past, which is roughly 3-4 years. This is possibly offset by lower depreciation?
One thing you mentioned is the hybrid battery. If they're not known for dying suddenly, then surely, it doesn't really need replacing unless you're holding it for another 20 years when the SOH might be around 20% (which isn't terrible or guaranteed if you learn how to look after the battery), so is it really comparable to replacing a pair of turbos (I forget but do these leak oil and fail?)? That said, you're comparing a 4x4 to a high end sports car, so which one appeals more to you and works better for your lifestyle?
In your shoes, I d keep the savings and finance the balance after the p/ex.
If you buy the right 911 and major world events aside, if you ve made the worst decision buying it, it can quickly be sold back for WBAC valuation (or higher) to a Porsche dealer. Or you can settle the finance down the line if finance was the worst decision.
The classic car financing places can finance a car after you ve bought it to refill your savings if required.
A 911 of this age will require money to run but its deprecation should be very gentle (maybe it will go up in value, who knows!)
If you work on £500 per £50K monthly repayment, just see what the lowest rate you can achieve (car finance / balloon/ personal loan / mortgage top up (?)) or other.
If your savings are making 3.5% and you can get say 5%, is that interest gap you are covering better than losing the interest out of your savings etc.
Psychologically you might want to own the car as part of the experience so your approach might be different, but sensible financing is always an option over emptying savings if you take the right path.
If you buy the right 911 and major world events aside, if you ve made the worst decision buying it, it can quickly be sold back for WBAC valuation (or higher) to a Porsche dealer. Or you can settle the finance down the line if finance was the worst decision.
The classic car financing places can finance a car after you ve bought it to refill your savings if required.
A 911 of this age will require money to run but its deprecation should be very gentle (maybe it will go up in value, who knows!)
If you work on £500 per £50K monthly repayment, just see what the lowest rate you can achieve (car finance / balloon/ personal loan / mortgage top up (?)) or other.
If your savings are making 3.5% and you can get say 5%, is that interest gap you are covering better than losing the interest out of your savings etc.
Psychologically you might want to own the car as part of the experience so your approach might be different, but sensible financing is always an option over emptying savings if you take the right path.
Edited by 996Type on Friday 29th May 12:03
Hoofy said:
One thing you mentioned is the hybrid battery. If they're not known for dying suddenly, then surely, it doesn't really need replacing unless you're holding it for another 20 years when the SOH might be around 20% (which isn't terrible or guaranteed if you learn how to look after the battery), so is it really comparable to replacing a pair of turbos (I forget but do these leak oil and fail?)? That said, you're comparing a 4x4 to a high end sports car, so which one appeals more to you and works better for your lifestyle?
You’re correct. The batteries typically seem to degrade over time rather than just fail. Although sudden errors with the hybrid drive system are not unheard of. It was more the perception surrounding older “EVs”, part of me feels like it’s value could take a nose dive in the next two years.
To add, I wouldn’t use ISA savings, that would tip the balance for me to using finance.
Also rereading your outline, you sound like you’ve worked hard and saved hard and you are a long time dead, I’d go for it and buy yourself a 911!
I’ve been a serial owner for best part of 20 years (not the posh stuff you refer to, always the base boggo models a few generations back) and while I don’t “lust” after them as such, they do get under your skin and are very competent cars at whichever level you get into them.
Also worth testing a few as part of the process (older and newer if possible), taking your time and enjoying that aspect of the search.
A lot have had multiple owners (people having them a short time and getting it out of their system), others will never sell once they get the right model.
Also rereading your outline, you sound like you’ve worked hard and saved hard and you are a long time dead, I’d go for it and buy yourself a 911!
I’ve been a serial owner for best part of 20 years (not the posh stuff you refer to, always the base boggo models a few generations back) and while I don’t “lust” after them as such, they do get under your skin and are very competent cars at whichever level you get into them.
Also worth testing a few as part of the process (older and newer if possible), taking your time and enjoying that aspect of the search.
A lot have had multiple owners (people having them a short time and getting it out of their system), others will never sell once they get the right model.
996Type said:
In your shoes, I d keep the savings and finance the balance after the p/ex.
If you buy the right 911 and major world events aside, if you ve made the worst decision buying it, it can quickly be sold back for WBAC valuation (or higher) to a Porsche dealer. Or you can settle the finance down the line if finance was the worst decision.
The classic car financing places can finance a car after you ve bought it to refill your savings if required.
A 911 of this age will require money to run but its deprecation should be very gentle (maybe it will go up in value, who knows!)
If you work on £500 per £50K monthly repayment, just see what the lowest rate you can achieve (car finance / ballon / personal loan / mortgage top up (?)) or other.
If your savings are making 3.5% and you can get say 5%, is that interest gap you are covering better than losing the interest out of your savings etc.
Psychologically you might want to own the car as part of the experience so your approach might be different, but sensible financing is always an option over emptying savings if you take the right path.
I know what you’re saying, but if I’m servicing the loan from my monthly income, I feel that things would be a little tight, which was one of the reasons for my hesitation. If you buy the right 911 and major world events aside, if you ve made the worst decision buying it, it can quickly be sold back for WBAC valuation (or higher) to a Porsche dealer. Or you can settle the finance down the line if finance was the worst decision.
The classic car financing places can finance a car after you ve bought it to refill your savings if required.
A 911 of this age will require money to run but its deprecation should be very gentle (maybe it will go up in value, who knows!)
If you work on £500 per £50K monthly repayment, just see what the lowest rate you can achieve (car finance / ballon / personal loan / mortgage top up (?)) or other.
If your savings are making 3.5% and you can get say 5%, is that interest gap you are covering better than losing the interest out of your savings etc.
Psychologically you might want to own the car as part of the experience so your approach might be different, but sensible financing is always an option over emptying savings if you take the right path.
Go Compare said:
996Type said:
In your shoes, I d keep the savings and finance the balance after the p/ex.
If you buy the right 911 and major world events aside, if you ve made the worst decision buying it, it can quickly be sold back for WBAC valuation (or higher) to a Porsche dealer. Or you can settle the finance down the line if finance was the worst decision.
The classic car financing places can finance a car after you ve bought it to refill your savings if required.
A 911 of this age will require money to run but its deprecation should be very gentle (maybe it will go up in value, who knows!)
If you work on £500 per £50K monthly repayment, just see what the lowest rate you can achieve (car finance / ballon / personal loan / mortgage top up (?)) or other.
If your savings are making 3.5% and you can get say 5%, is that interest gap you are covering better than losing the interest out of your savings etc.
Psychologically you might want to own the car as part of the experience so your approach might be different, but sensible financing is always an option over emptying savings if you take the right path.
I know what you re saying, but if I m servicing the loan from my monthly income, I feel that things would be a little tight, which was one of the reasons for my hesitation. If you buy the right 911 and major world events aside, if you ve made the worst decision buying it, it can quickly be sold back for WBAC valuation (or higher) to a Porsche dealer. Or you can settle the finance down the line if finance was the worst decision.
The classic car financing places can finance a car after you ve bought it to refill your savings if required.
A 911 of this age will require money to run but its deprecation should be very gentle (maybe it will go up in value, who knows!)
If you work on £500 per £50K monthly repayment, just see what the lowest rate you can achieve (car finance / ballon / personal loan / mortgage top up (?)) or other.
If your savings are making 3.5% and you can get say 5%, is that interest gap you are covering better than losing the interest out of your savings etc.
Psychologically you might want to own the car as part of the experience so your approach might be different, but sensible financing is always an option over emptying savings if you take the right path.
We are all different but £35K (your p/ex level) would get you a very nice manual 997.1 / 2 outright, there’s talk of appreciation in those. It’s a theoretical step back but in reality, 90% of the same experience with 0% drawdown from savings!
I’m not an expert so take anything I read with a large pinch of salt….
I’d strongly advise against liquidating ISA savings to buy any car…the value of tax free compounding over 10 or 20 years is huge. Once that tax free shelter is gone it’s gone and there’s no guarantee ISA’s won’t be replaced with something less attractive at some stage.
I know that’s not very PH but that’s the reality.
I’d buy something you can afford comfortably without the finance payments feeling like they’re a burden. I am sure at some stage given how financially responsible you are you’ll be able to buy the car you want without it feeling like a financial burden.
I know that’s not very PH but that’s the reality.
I’d buy something you can afford comfortably without the finance payments feeling like they’re a burden. I am sure at some stage given how financially responsible you are you’ll be able to buy the car you want without it feeling like a financial burden.
Seems you are in a good place to make such a purchase. But I would echo the comments above regarding your ISA - it takes a long time to build up tax free savings and investments in ISAs, and they really start to work for you later in life. I would leave yours alone. If that scuppers your purchase then so be it.
Appreciate all the responses, both the do it and don’t do it opinions!
The course of the thread has almost mimicked the way I’ve been mulling this over for some time.
The devil on one shoulder and the angel on the other saying.
“Go for it, enjoy life” vs “Be sensible and keep saving”
The course of the thread has almost mimicked the way I’ve been mulling this over for some time.
The devil on one shoulder and the angel on the other saying.
“Go for it, enjoy life” vs “Be sensible and keep saving”
Go Compare said:
Hoofy said:
One thing you mentioned is the hybrid battery. If they're not known for dying suddenly, then surely, it doesn't really need replacing unless you're holding it for another 20 years when the SOH might be around 20% (which isn't terrible or guaranteed if you learn how to look after the battery), so is it really comparable to replacing a pair of turbos (I forget but do these leak oil and fail?)? That said, you're comparing a 4x4 to a high end sports car, so which one appeals more to you and works better for your lifestyle?
You re correct. The batteries typically seem to degrade over time rather than just fail. Although sudden errors with the hybrid drive system are not unheard of. It was more the perception surrounding older EVs , part of me feels like it s value could take a nose dive in the next two years.
The drive system errors would make me think about selling before the warranty was over if you have one.
Oh, you mentioned the 991.1 - I'd be tempted with that because you don't get the turbo issue plus they sound better... but then you have to pay more tax (£800+?) and there might be other common big issues that I'm unaware of. I know the GT3 of that era can have a problematic engine.
I do like the idea of the more modern PCM on the 991.2, but I’ve seen some aftermarket kits to allow you to have CarPlay etc on a 991.1.
Someone mentioned removing the issue of finding the cash to purchase a 911 by looking at 997s. I must admit whilst I’m not as keen on them, I do pass a really nice one every day when out with the dog. Mrs suggested putting a note under the wiper with my details.
Though, when I have looked at them in the classifieds the decent ones don’t seem to be that much cheaper than some of the 991.1s?
Someone mentioned removing the issue of finding the cash to purchase a 911 by looking at 997s. I must admit whilst I’m not as keen on them, I do pass a really nice one every day when out with the dog. Mrs suggested putting a note under the wiper with my details.
Though, when I have looked at them in the classifieds the decent ones don’t seem to be that much cheaper than some of the 991.1s?
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