HELP - My wheel fell off!!!
Discussion
Picked up a new car on sunday - a porker 911 turbo - my dream car since I was old enough to say "porsche".
Last night I was driving home from work, and I became aware of something funny - it started off being a clicking noise - bit like a stone caught in the tyre tread. this got slowly louder and more noticeable on right hand corners until the steering wheel started to vibrate and the clicking turned into a rumbling noise . . . . .
. . . .and then my nearside front wheel fell off!
Fortunately I was only doing 30mph, and managed to pull onto a muddy grass verge. . . . and obviously I'm still alive, which helps
With the help of the RAC guy we managed to get the wheel back on by pinching a wheel nut off each of the other wheels (all 5 wheel nuts from the wheel that came off went missing), got the car onto the trailer and towed it home.
Initially RAC guy and I thought someone had tried to pinch the wheels, but when we took a closer look at the remaining wheel nuts we discovered to our horror that ALL the wheel nuts including the locking wheel nuts were only hand tight
I am 99.9% certain that no one has tried to get the wheels off, as there is no damage to the wheels, all wheel nuts were hand tight (not torqued tight), and this was the one and only time I had taken the car to this place of work - so no one could have planned to removed the wheels by getting hold of a locking wheel nut thingy.
Also, the car was left in a well lit place, directly outside my place of work on a reasonably busy residential road. I have parked the EVO here many times, along with other cars E.G BMWs with smart alloys, and I have never had the slightest hint of trouble.
In my mind, this leaves one grim conclusion . . . .
So I spoke to the dealer I bought the car from - an official Porsche centre. He is adamant in his service staffs' workmanship, and says there is NO chance that the wheel nuts were not fully torqued. His argument is that they did a wheel alignment, and they road tested the car prior to handover. He also says the car had an "independent RAC inspection", and that these things would have picked up loose wheel nuts.
I have done about 300 miles of gentle driving since I picked up the car (too scared to spank it yet, plus wasnt fully used to the car)
My questions are as follows
1) Can wheel alignment be carried out on wheels that have been secured but not fully torqued down without noticing any problems
2) How is it possible to go for 300 miles on not fully tight wheel nuts?
The damage sustained was a wrecked front brake caliper, hub and wheel, which I really cannot grumble about 'cos if it had happened 10 mins later I would have been on a dual carriageway doing dual carriageway speeds
I really hope you guys can give me some info to help me get to the bottom of this. . . . . .
Yikes!
Well held, that man anyway.
For myself, the correct torque, is apply wheel wrench to easilly rounded off wheel nuts, pull up, by hand,
(and do'nt attempt to balance yourself on end of bar)
there,
thats enough,
I never let an air tool near them,
if some work has been carried out in that area of car, i'd start laying the blame from that point, since your alive to do it.
Well held, that man anyway.
For myself, the correct torque, is apply wheel wrench to easilly rounded off wheel nuts, pull up, by hand,
(and do'nt attempt to balance yourself on end of bar)
there,
thats enough,
I never let an air tool near them,
if some work has been carried out in that area of car, i'd start laying the blame from that point, since your alive to do it.
I would say 99.99999% result of wheels not torques after being removed.
reason was that they were all the same.
Typical garage technique is to use a nut runner or air wrench on low setting, then run around with torque bar.
It is very easy to forget if you get disturbed. I have done this myself many times...oops
Or the garage uses a torque based air wrnech and it was set in-correctly.
I would NOT expect that to be picked up by anyone, you would only notice by putting a torque wrench on it and why would anyone do that ??
Do back and give them some stick, its very sloppy.
reason was that they were all the same.
Typical garage technique is to use a nut runner or air wrench on low setting, then run around with torque bar.
It is very easy to forget if you get disturbed. I have done this myself many times...oops
Or the garage uses a torque based air wrnech and it was set in-correctly.
I would NOT expect that to be picked up by anyone, you would only notice by putting a torque wrench on it and why would anyone do that ??
Do back and give them some stick, its very sloppy.
Yes you could align with less-than-spec torque on the nuts and yes it's entirely possible they forgot to go around with the torque wrench.
There's nothing sinister about this - it's simply going to happen to people from time to time - that's the way things go when human-fallibility meets statistics... They need to accept it's possible and it's at least worth discussing - it won't look good if they don't even consider the possibility...;-(
>> Edited by sundiver on Thursday 20th October 23:00
There's nothing sinister about this - it's simply going to happen to people from time to time - that's the way things go when human-fallibility meets statistics... They need to accept it's possible and it's at least worth discussing - it won't look good if they don't even consider the possibility...;-(
>> Edited by sundiver on Thursday 20th October 23:00
I wish I could have come to this forum with a "welcome me, I'm a newbie with a shiny new Porsche" line, unfortunately that wasnt to be.
Thanks for your replies, your comments are pretty much what I thought. I have also run this past my local garage, with whom I have a very trusting relationship, and various friends in thr motor trade who all say the same thing.
Problem is, the a**hole that I have been liasing with is 110% (his words, not mine) adamant that their guys havent overlooked anything.
I work in the medical proffession, and I know all about things being overlooked - usually because you have some distraction - this sort of thing happens all the time, in all professions. Unfortunately, we are all humans.
Its this guys inability to accept there may have been an oversight that is really pi**ing me off, and its for this reason I am almost tempted to give the car back to him, kick him up the a**e, demand back my money and go and give someone else the commission.
Rant over, good night all and thanks again . . .
Thanks for your replies, your comments are pretty much what I thought. I have also run this past my local garage, with whom I have a very trusting relationship, and various friends in thr motor trade who all say the same thing.
Problem is, the a**hole that I have been liasing with is 110% (his words, not mine) adamant that their guys havent overlooked anything.
I work in the medical proffession, and I know all about things being overlooked - usually because you have some distraction - this sort of thing happens all the time, in all professions. Unfortunately, we are all humans.
Its this guys inability to accept there may have been an oversight that is really pi**ing me off, and its for this reason I am almost tempted to give the car back to him, kick him up the a**e, demand back my money and go and give someone else the commission.
Rant over, good night all and thanks again . . .
Ask for a meeting with the dealer principle, sit down with him and if you get no where book an appointment with Porsche Cars GB.
This sort of thing does always happen.... if there is no sign of tampering on the locking nuts I can't see how they can complain.
What I'd ask for is they sort the damage, explain they don't have to admit liability (that is what will be worrying them) but a good will justure is called for now....
Good Luck!!!!
This sort of thing does always happen.... if there is no sign of tampering on the locking nuts I can't see how they can complain.
What I'd ask for is they sort the damage, explain they don't have to admit liability (that is what will be worrying them) but a good will justure is called for now....
Good Luck!!!!
porsche4life said:
It is very easy to forget if you get disturbed....
I would NOT expect that to be picked up by anyone, you would only notice by putting a torque wrench on it and why would anyone do that ??
Do back and give them some stick, its very sloppy.
Totally agree this is within the “non” capabilities of any garage. Glad you are OK – and hate to think what could have been – hope your pride and joy is not too damaged. Give them more than stick. I would go straight to their owner and demand an explanation of why they feel their customers property and life is less important than their own. Don’t give them an inch on the possibility of it being not their fault. I am genuinely shocked they could do that.
I agree with SP. You need to go to the dealer principal, if no luck there go to Porsche GB.
I had my RS in at an OPC, and they managed to hit a ramp and damage a wheel, the service manager and mechanics were adamant it wasn' them, even though the paperwork showed there was no damage when I dropped it in, in the end spoke to the dealer principal, got a nice new wheel and a letter of apology.
Make sure you get some form of good will payment, even if its 2 years of free servicing. It's in their interests to make you happy.
I had my RS in at an OPC, and they managed to hit a ramp and damage a wheel, the service manager and mechanics were adamant it wasn' them, even though the paperwork showed there was no damage when I dropped it in, in the end spoke to the dealer principal, got a nice new wheel and a letter of apology.
Make sure you get some form of good will payment, even if its 2 years of free servicing. It's in their interests to make you happy.
Take it to the top.
You could have been killed, or worse still, the car could have crashed head on into another car and killed them.
You do not take the wheels off to align wheel. They need to be on the car, so they are lying to you.
Tell them you are involving your solicitor, or report them to trading standards. They won't like that!
Its a very serious matter.
You could have been killed, or worse still, the car could have crashed head on into another car and killed them.
You do not take the wheels off to align wheel. They need to be on the car, so they are lying to you.
Tell them you are involving your solicitor, or report them to trading standards. They won't like that!
Its a very serious matter.
I cannot understand how this guy can have the front to say he's 110% certain. He cannot possibly know that, unless he habitually goes round every wheelnut of every car that goes through their workshop with a torque wrench himself (which, of course, he doesn't). This is nothing more than an unfortunate mistake, which the dealer must at least acknowledge could have been made by them. Follow the previous advice. Demand to see the dealer principal. If that doesn't work take it to Porsche GB.
Best of luck.
By the way, problems not withstanding, you've got yourself a great car. Enjoy
Best of luck.
By the way, problems not withstanding, you've got yourself a great car. Enjoy
He can't be 110% certain. Nor can he be 100% certain - he didn't do the work himself and coupled with the very real possibility of human error he can only be X% confident they aren't at fault where X is very assuredly less than 100. If he doesn't accept this then he's already lying and weakening his position to state he's 110% certain. If he does, then you're making progress and have something to work with...
I would be surprised if an articulate and rational appeal to the DP didn't bring results.
I would be surprised if an articulate and rational appeal to the DP didn't bring results.
PEVO,
The only possible explanation I can think of, apart from dealer incompetance, may be that the wheels have recently been re-painted or powder coated.
If the face of the wheel that mates with the wheel nuts is either not masked off, or not sanded afterwards, then the following issue occurs.
The paint or powdercoat between the wheel and nut gets hot and melts whilst driving. This can mean that with the lateral cornering forces the nuts become increasingly loose until, as in your case, a wheel may fall off.
The "loose nuts" issue has reared it's head on a number of cars that have recently had wheels refurbished.
Just a thought
Matt
The only possible explanation I can think of, apart from dealer incompetance, may be that the wheels have recently been re-painted or powder coated.
If the face of the wheel that mates with the wheel nuts is either not masked off, or not sanded afterwards, then the following issue occurs.
The paint or powdercoat between the wheel and nut gets hot and melts whilst driving. This can mean that with the lateral cornering forces the nuts become increasingly loose until, as in your case, a wheel may fall off.
The "loose nuts" issue has reared it's head on a number of cars that have recently had wheels refurbished.
Just a thought
Matt
Thanks again for your replies
I have told everyone at work about this, and everyone is gobsmacked that this could happen to a (approved!!!! used) £56k car. Most of the people I work with have been there for 10+ years, and NEVER have they had any incident with toerags trying to pinch wheels.
Fortunately nothing serious did happen, but that hasnt stopped us mulling over the "could have been" situations. Unfortunately, the OPC that I had the car towed to have said there is £2500 worth of damage, including the hub (where the loose wheel nuts have stripped out the thread), the brake caliper and wheel (which hit each other), and ofcourse new wheel nuts and brake fluid inc labour inc vat.
£2500 is nothing really, compared to someones life.
The matter is now with Porsche customer services, I have explained how the jumped up little oik is refusing to budge on his 110% certainty, I just need to see what happens.
Good point about the double checking the wheel nuts - I will have to mention that to them. I know he hasn't said anything along those lines to me.
I didnt think to speak to the dealer principle, as I thought he would have been involved anyway, but it may be too late for that. . . . . . .
I have told everyone at work about this, and everyone is gobsmacked that this could happen to a (approved!!!! used) £56k car. Most of the people I work with have been there for 10+ years, and NEVER have they had any incident with toerags trying to pinch wheels.
Fortunately nothing serious did happen, but that hasnt stopped us mulling over the "could have been" situations. Unfortunately, the OPC that I had the car towed to have said there is £2500 worth of damage, including the hub (where the loose wheel nuts have stripped out the thread), the brake caliper and wheel (which hit each other), and ofcourse new wheel nuts and brake fluid inc labour inc vat.
£2500 is nothing really, compared to someones life.
The matter is now with Porsche customer services, I have explained how the jumped up little oik is refusing to budge on his 110% certainty, I just need to see what happens.
Good point about the double checking the wheel nuts - I will have to mention that to them. I know he hasn't said anything along those lines to me.
I didnt think to speak to the dealer principle, as I thought he would have been involved anyway, but it may be too late for that. . . . . . .
My best mate bought a new M3 a couple of months back. He'd done about 200 miles and asked me to swap the pads for him for track days. To my amazement, both sets of front wheel nuts were only hand tight. No tampering could have occured as the car is a weekend toy thing and never left parked up anywhere. The dealer refused to admit it could even have been a mistake by them (probably the std 'admit nothing approach'). It does happen and it's very annoying when they just won't accept any possibility that it could be their fault.
Don't bother with the papers, threaten the dealer with the Health and Safety Executive and an appearance in court.
Totally outrageous that they should deny it and they should pay for all damage incurred, plus a goodwill gesture.
I have owned a workshop and had this happen once, fortunately the wheel did not come off. I sacked the mechanic, who was otherwise brilliant and gave the customer a years free servicing.
Their behaviour is not befitting of an OPC and Porsche GB will not be happy with your treatment.
Totally outrageous that they should deny it and they should pay for all damage incurred, plus a goodwill gesture.
I have owned a workshop and had this happen once, fortunately the wheel did not come off. I sacked the mechanic, who was otherwise brilliant and gave the customer a years free servicing.
Their behaviour is not befitting of an OPC and Porsche GB will not be happy with your treatment.
Gassing Station | Porsche General | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff