Discussion
hi,
so i crashed the car last night. luckily theres no damage, but i went off the road and everything. and had there been another car coming in tuther direction, this almost certainly would have been another kind of post/ no post. but thats not why I'm writing now. heres why. here. right here. well, here actually.
so, i was on my way to my gf's and i wasn't in the best frame of mind. i don't deny that poor concentration was most likely the result. my head was cluttered and i just wanted to get the journey over. so, this most likely means i did something stoopid like braked too late or lifted off mid corner or got on the power too early or something , BUT i was going really slowly. less than 20mph in fact.i just wasn't in the right frame of mind to go any faster at the point (had been in the car for only 3 or 4 mins at that point).
i spun on a corner not far from my house in dry conditions at sub 20 mph, on a corner that i have always taken much much faster (its a 50 mph stretch of road). even my cerbera could negotiate the corner at much taller speeds, and that was trying to kill me ALL the time. and I'm puzzled as to why it happened.
moreover, I'm puzzled that there was no intervention whatsoever from the psm, no lights flickered or anything. by no means was i driving recklessly, and i don't drive knowing that driver aids will save me, cos i know that however clever they are they cannot change the laws of physics (Cap'n). so is NO intervention normal?
also, does this level of easy-off sound normal? I'm surprised, not just because of the slow speed or the lack of assistance, but because it actually happened in the first place. the car has felt incredibly planted from day 1 (lets not forget that its the gay c4 version i have) and i will admit Ive been pressing on through twisties and stuff MUCH harder than i would have in the cerb as it just inspires so much more confidence. also the tyres are really good ones, and almost new, and it was a warm night, so the tyres wont have been cold or anything. but yet, there i was looking behind me.
so whats going on gang? i would expect this kind of behavior from an older murderous arse engined Porsche (waits to get flamed, but you know what i mean) and i totally understand the principals behind having all the weight sticking out over the rear like that making the car handle like a pendulum, but I'm surprised at this. i had my cerbera for 10 months, drove 'with commitment' everywhere (when suitable blah blah blah) and i never once had a total 180 spin. remember, this was a car with no driver aids and no abs and almost no traction.
id appreciate your thoughts gang. what most likely did i do wrong and what must i do in future to stop it happening again? id like to note that im an old git now, and have been driving for the best part of 20 years, so ive almost got the hang of it now.
so i crashed the car last night. luckily theres no damage, but i went off the road and everything. and had there been another car coming in tuther direction, this almost certainly would have been another kind of post/ no post. but thats not why I'm writing now. heres why. here. right here. well, here actually.
so, i was on my way to my gf's and i wasn't in the best frame of mind. i don't deny that poor concentration was most likely the result. my head was cluttered and i just wanted to get the journey over. so, this most likely means i did something stoopid like braked too late or lifted off mid corner or got on the power too early or something , BUT i was going really slowly. less than 20mph in fact.i just wasn't in the right frame of mind to go any faster at the point (had been in the car for only 3 or 4 mins at that point).
i spun on a corner not far from my house in dry conditions at sub 20 mph, on a corner that i have always taken much much faster (its a 50 mph stretch of road). even my cerbera could negotiate the corner at much taller speeds, and that was trying to kill me ALL the time. and I'm puzzled as to why it happened.
moreover, I'm puzzled that there was no intervention whatsoever from the psm, no lights flickered or anything. by no means was i driving recklessly, and i don't drive knowing that driver aids will save me, cos i know that however clever they are they cannot change the laws of physics (Cap'n). so is NO intervention normal?
also, does this level of easy-off sound normal? I'm surprised, not just because of the slow speed or the lack of assistance, but because it actually happened in the first place. the car has felt incredibly planted from day 1 (lets not forget that its the gay c4 version i have) and i will admit Ive been pressing on through twisties and stuff MUCH harder than i would have in the cerb as it just inspires so much more confidence. also the tyres are really good ones, and almost new, and it was a warm night, so the tyres wont have been cold or anything. but yet, there i was looking behind me.
so whats going on gang? i would expect this kind of behavior from an older murderous arse engined Porsche (waits to get flamed, but you know what i mean) and i totally understand the principals behind having all the weight sticking out over the rear like that making the car handle like a pendulum, but I'm surprised at this. i had my cerbera for 10 months, drove 'with commitment' everywhere (when suitable blah blah blah) and i never once had a total 180 spin. remember, this was a car with no driver aids and no abs and almost no traction.
id appreciate your thoughts gang. what most likely did i do wrong and what must i do in future to stop it happening again? id like to note that im an old git now, and have been driving for the best part of 20 years, so ive almost got the hang of it now.
being nervous is a good thing though, i NEVER forget im in a car with more potential than i have talent.
its the ease of it that has puzzled me. ive been much faster on much less appropriate stretches and never even had so much as a twitch. im sure its not the cars fault, you really need not worry. its the most competent car ive ever had, and im pretty sure youd be hard pressed to fault it. again, ive not had even so much of a wiggle in the past 1000 miles of enthusiastic driving. so PLEASE dont worry on my account.
>> Edited by nervous on Thursday 27th October 12:25
its the ease of it that has puzzled me. ive been much faster on much less appropriate stretches and never even had so much as a twitch. im sure its not the cars fault, you really need not worry. its the most competent car ive ever had, and im pretty sure youd be hard pressed to fault it. again, ive not had even so much of a wiggle in the past 1000 miles of enthusiastic driving. so PLEASE dont worry on my account.
>> Edited by nervous on Thursday 27th October 12:25
Glad your OK.
Not probably relevent due to different models but I did exactly the same/or simular in mine within weeks of getting it.
never happened since And I am now hustling it along at quite a lick and feeling very very confident in its handling. Don't even get the understeer any more.
Im just aware that when near the limit it will oversteer in a heartbeat and I'm ready to steer into it if it happens or at least more metaly prepared for it
I think subconciusly I have changed my driving stlyle.
Not probably relevent due to different models but I did exactly the same/or simular in mine within weeks of getting it.
never happened since And I am now hustling it along at quite a lick and feeling very very confident in its handling. Don't even get the understeer any more.
Im just aware that when near the limit it will oversteer in a heartbeat and I'm ready to steer into it if it happens or at least more metaly prepared for it
I think subconciusly I have changed my driving stlyle.
Diesel?
I had a spin on a roundabout a few years ago and though I was doing about 30+ MPH it just went instantly, with no time to react, let alone catch it.
The only thing I could attribute it to was the possibility of diesel on the road exactly where I applied power on coming out of the roundabout.
I had a spin on a roundabout a few years ago and though I was doing about 30+ MPH it just went instantly, with no time to react, let alone catch it.
The only thing I could attribute it to was the possibility of diesel on the road exactly where I applied power on coming out of the roundabout.
pesty said:
glad youre ok.
Im just aware that when near the limit it will oversteer in a heartbeat and I'm ready to steer into it if it happens or at least more metaly prepared for it
I think subconciusly I have changed my driving stlyle.
thanks Pesty.
but you see, thats the thing, i couldnt have been going any slower really. so i was nowhere near the limit.
johnfm said:
Diesel?
I had a spin on a roundabout a few years ago and though I was doing about 30+ MPH it just went instantly, with no time to react, let alone catch it.
The only thing I could attribute it to was the possibility of diesel on the road exactly where I applied power on coming out of the roundabout.
thankyou john. thats a good thought. i hope so. I'm going to have a look later. alternatively, the fields are being harvested here at the moment so maybe the road was covered with a fine dust of dried up mud that i couldn't see (quite the rural image i just painted, huh?). so, its a possibility.
that said, even with a causal factor such as diesel, I'm surprised that i didn't even see the flicker of a comforting yellow light. not that it could have done too much, as you say, it was all over before it had begun.
We had an FAQ on 911 driving tips that may be interesting reading:
www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=66416&f=48&h=0
DAZ
www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=66416&f=48&h=0
DAZ
nervous said:
glad youre ok.
Im just aware that when near the limit it will oversteer in a heartbeat and I'm ready to steer into it if it happens or at least more metaly prepared for it
I think subconciusly I have changed my driving stlyle.
thanks Pesty.
but you see, thats the thing, i couldnt have been going any slower really. so i was nowhere near the limit.
doh i didnt see the 20mph bit that will teach me to scan read
. mmmmm johnFM probably right diesel alignment check recently?
Certainly the sudden loss of traction and no intervention suggests something on the road surface such as diesel.
In these kind of circumstances i.e. where the loss of traction is instant, systems such as PASM can be fooled as they look for a gradual loss of grip (even if "gradual" is as little as a second or so).
Even if PASM had intervened there still needs to be something to grip to in order to keep you on the road. If there was Diesel on the road it's unlikely there was anything to grip to.
I did a test in a Ford Focus at the 'ring on a wet stretch of road with a moving plate that span the car when you hit it at 40kmph. Without ESP on (and under instruction NOT to try to catch it) the car spun wildly, with it on it simply pulled itself back into line with little fuss.
It could do this because there was a (albeit low) level of grip available so the ESP system was able to juggle braking and throttle accordingly. Had it been Diesel with no grip available it would have spun again.
At least you're okay and the car lives to fight another day.
In these kind of circumstances i.e. where the loss of traction is instant, systems such as PASM can be fooled as they look for a gradual loss of grip (even if "gradual" is as little as a second or so).
Even if PASM had intervened there still needs to be something to grip to in order to keep you on the road. If there was Diesel on the road it's unlikely there was anything to grip to.
I did a test in a Ford Focus at the 'ring on a wet stretch of road with a moving plate that span the car when you hit it at 40kmph. Without ESP on (and under instruction NOT to try to catch it) the car spun wildly, with it on it simply pulled itself back into line with little fuss.
It could do this because there was a (albeit low) level of grip available so the ESP system was able to juggle braking and throttle accordingly. Had it been Diesel with no grip available it would have spun again.
At least you're okay and the car lives to fight another day.
MOD500 said:
Glad you are ok.
Maybe the cold tyres contributed too, as you mentioned only driving for 3 or 4 mins prior to the spin.
Oil / derv patch on road also maybe?
i hope so, that said, im usually pretty sensitive to warm up times (unless you want a new engine every day you have to let the tvr warm up for 20 minutes on every journey, which means being overtaken by caravans and cyclists)
semprini27 said:
Certainly the sudden loss of traction and no intervention suggests something on the road surface such as diesel.
In these kind of circumstances i.e. where the loss of traction is instant, systems such as PASM can be fooled as they look for a gradual loss of grip (even if "gradual" is as little as a second or so).
Even if PASM had intervened there still needs to be something to grip to in order to keep you on the road. If there was Diesel on the road it's unlikely there was anything to grip to.
I did a test in a Ford Focus at the 'ring on a wet stretch of road with a moving plate that span the car when you hit it at 40kmph. Without ESP on (and under instruction NOT to try to catch it) the car spun wildly, with it on it simply pulled itself back into line with little fuss.
It could do this because there was a (albeit low) level of grip available so the ESP system was able to juggle braking and throttle accordingly. Had it been Diesel with no grip available it would have spun again.
At least you're okay and the car lives to fight another day.
thanks Semprini, thats really interesting.
How do you take corners? Slow in fast out? Fast entry and carry speed all the way through? Fast in, oh shit, then lift?
I can recommend doing a half day with www.cadence.co.uk . Dave gave me a few tips on 911 driving and its helped immensely. I really really recommend spending some time with them.
On track at least, its normally when you are trying to drive slowly and stop concentrating that you make the big mistakes.
>> Edited by DanH on Thursday 27th October 12:53
nervous said:
always slow in fast out. never get back on the gas till the second 50% of the corner. never, brake or change mid corner.
Have you got enough throttle on to not lose speed to tyre scrub during the initial part of the corner? My main failing was that I was still transfering weight to the front on entry and carrying too much speed into the corner (habits I picked up from my understeary and slow to accelerate Elise!).
>> Edited by DanH on Thursday 27th October 13:16
Hmm, a lot of that stuff is dead right with respect to hoofing it thru corners too much or driving F engined Rwd but if you are in a 964 things are slightly different! If you dorp the throttle mid corner, you WILL get lift off oversteer and plenty of it if you are going quickly, I had an interesting time at Bedford some time ago when I was 'learning' a 964 and you can certainly use the Lift Off O'steer to advantage in tight bends when entering too quickly and hooning abot, it can tighten your line considerably, when you've got the thing to turn, then you can hoof it again. In teh dry you'll be doing well to unstick the back under power with only 250BHP.
I had a bit of an interesting moment when I EASED the throttle through a long LH bend on teh approach to a tighter RH - the back end broke away big style - only gritted teeth enabled me to get back on the throttle, whereupon the car righted itself and I was able to choose a straighter line for hard braking to complete the RH manouevre - things that make you go hmmmmm...
Def learnt from that situation.
BTW 4 wheel drive would not have helped 1 iota !!
Dont bother with 4WD IMO - the car will only understeer more than 2wd into the corners, it will certainly LO oversteer just as much as 2wd, and thats the scary bit until you get used to it ... You can of course practice LO oversteer on wet (deserted) roundabouts - just enter quite fast in 2nd gear drop teh throttle as you turn into teh bend and waiiiiit for it, then as it starts to happen just get back into the throttle and she'll widen her line to straight again, you'll feel like a hero!
I had a bit of an interesting moment when I EASED the throttle through a long LH bend on teh approach to a tighter RH - the back end broke away big style - only gritted teeth enabled me to get back on the throttle, whereupon the car righted itself and I was able to choose a straighter line for hard braking to complete the RH manouevre - things that make you go hmmmmm...
Def learnt from that situation.
BTW 4 wheel drive would not have helped 1 iota !!
Dont bother with 4WD IMO - the car will only understeer more than 2wd into the corners, it will certainly LO oversteer just as much as 2wd, and thats the scary bit until you get used to it ... You can of course practice LO oversteer on wet (deserted) roundabouts - just enter quite fast in 2nd gear drop teh throttle as you turn into teh bend and waiiiiit for it, then as it starts to happen just get back into the throttle and she'll widen her line to straight again, you'll feel like a hero!
slider2 said:
You can of course practice LO oversteer on wet (deserted) roundabouts - just enter quite fast in 2nd gear drop teh throttle as you turn into teh bend and waiiiiit for it, then as it starts to happen just get back into the throttle and she'll widen her line to straight again, you'll feel like a hero!
Or be picking up pieces of alloy from the kerb side
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