Porsche 944 TurboTo 964 Turbo - Discuss?
Discussion
I have a beautiful 944 Turbo Cab.
I have always hankered after a 911 Turbo, and the 964 is the only car within my budget - I do love the shape.
I don't know much about the 964 Turbo, though there is plenty out there about 993's and 996's.
Is it a car to be avoided? I tend to use my car only on the weekends for drives into London (so there is plenty of traffic work).
1. Is it a good daily drive?
2. Is it as reliable as the 944 Turbo?
3. Higher maintenance costs?
4. Superior performance to 944 T - similar lag?
5. Better all rounder?
6. Twitchy?
7. Common problem areas?
8. Whats a "Turbo 2"?
I love the look of it, and I really want one. At around the 20k mark for a 80k miles 964 T seems like money I could afford soon...
Regards,
AD
I have always hankered after a 911 Turbo, and the 964 is the only car within my budget - I do love the shape.
I don't know much about the 964 Turbo, though there is plenty out there about 993's and 996's.
Is it a car to be avoided? I tend to use my car only on the weekends for drives into London (so there is plenty of traffic work).
1. Is it a good daily drive?
2. Is it as reliable as the 944 Turbo?
3. Higher maintenance costs?
4. Superior performance to 944 T - similar lag?
5. Better all rounder?
6. Twitchy?
7. Common problem areas?
8. Whats a "Turbo 2"?
I love the look of it, and I really want one. At around the 20k mark for a 80k miles 964 T seems like money I could afford soon...
Regards,
AD
1. Is it a good daily drive?
911s aren't quite as practical due to boot limitations, but it's comfortable and refined enough with most of the mod cons you'd want
2. Is it as reliable as the 944 Turbo?
Probably no better as same kind of turbo stuff can go wrong. They generally cost more to run than normally aspirated 964s, but people like UV swear by them. With proper maintenance they should be fine, but getting a good one and looking after it is important.
3. Higher maintenance costs?
Yes compared to C2, maybe not compared to 944 Turbo. Big brakes, big tyres, big thirst for fuel. You be the judge.
4. Superior performance to 944 T - similar lag?
Quicker than a 944T. Similar lag.
5. Better all rounder?
Probably not. 944T could be set up to handle better and is more pratical boot-wise.
6. Twitchy?
Engines on turbo 911s are even further out the back, so even more 911 like handling than normal. Big fat tyres, lots of torque from the turbo which can spool up quickly and light the tyres with undue care on slippery road surfaces... so yes, it is likely to be badger unfriendly in the wet and care would be required. In the dry it will be fine tho', but not perhaps as benign as a 944.
7. Common problem areas?
Oil leaks. Possible turbo issues/running problems/misfires. Otherwise solidly built car and pretty well engineered.
8. Whats a "Turbo 2"?
A 964 Turbo IS a Turbo 2. They are sometimes referred to as the '965' as well.
Another point; 3.3s are generally seen as being more tunable, the 3.6 has more power, fancier brakes and wheels and looks better.
UV will be along in a second but this should get things going before then.
911s aren't quite as practical due to boot limitations, but it's comfortable and refined enough with most of the mod cons you'd want
2. Is it as reliable as the 944 Turbo?
Probably no better as same kind of turbo stuff can go wrong. They generally cost more to run than normally aspirated 964s, but people like UV swear by them. With proper maintenance they should be fine, but getting a good one and looking after it is important.
3. Higher maintenance costs?
Yes compared to C2, maybe not compared to 944 Turbo. Big brakes, big tyres, big thirst for fuel. You be the judge.
4. Superior performance to 944 T - similar lag?
Quicker than a 944T. Similar lag.
5. Better all rounder?
Probably not. 944T could be set up to handle better and is more pratical boot-wise.
6. Twitchy?
Engines on turbo 911s are even further out the back, so even more 911 like handling than normal. Big fat tyres, lots of torque from the turbo which can spool up quickly and light the tyres with undue care on slippery road surfaces... so yes, it is likely to be badger unfriendly in the wet and care would be required. In the dry it will be fine tho', but not perhaps as benign as a 944.
7. Common problem areas?
Oil leaks. Possible turbo issues/running problems/misfires. Otherwise solidly built car and pretty well engineered.
8. Whats a "Turbo 2"?
A 964 Turbo IS a Turbo 2. They are sometimes referred to as the '965' as well.
Another point; 3.3s are generally seen as being more tunable, the 3.6 has more power, fancier brakes and wheels and looks better.
UV will be along in a second but this should get things going before then.
AdvocatusDiaboli said:
I think the boot on the 911 couldn't be any smaller than the boot on my cabrio! Good things with 911's is they do have two seats at the back.
1) i think you might be surprised. ok the 944 boot is small but it is rectangular and regular, whereas in the 911 its got lots of funny angles. i can fit a 1/2 size cello and a saxophone in the boot of my 968cab. try that in the 964. lets face it though, neither is a serious "practical" car
2) er...your 944 turbo has rear seats too doesnt it?
On the assumption however that what you are really after is simply MORE of everything (having got a taster in the 944) have you seen the midnight blue 964 turbo 2 at Oakhills, RHD for just shy of £24k? Its been there truly AGES (must be over 9 months, possibly a year). maybe they would take an offer....
(edited as always for spelling)
>> Edited by softinthehead on Wednesday 8th March 15:41
softinthehead said:
I think the boot on the 911 couldn't be any smaller than the boot on my cabrio! Good things with 911's is they do have two seats at the back.
1) i think you might be surprised. ok the 944 boot is small but it is rectangular and regular, whereas in the 911 its got lots of funny angles. i can fit a 1/2 size cello and a saxophone in the boot of my 968cab. try that in the 964. lets face it though, neither is a serious "practical" car
2) er...your 944 turbo has rear seats too doesnt it?
On the assumption however that what you are really after is simply MORE of everything (having got a taster in the 944) have you seen the midnight blue 964 turbo 2 at Oakhills, RHD for just shy of £24k? Its been there truly AGES (must be over 9 months, possibly a year). maybe they would take an offer....
(edited as always for spelling)
>> Edited by softinthehead on Wednesday 8th March 15:41
Yes, has two seats of course! I meant for you to mind read. What I meant was, as long as i can have a 911, I'll dump my crap on the back seats!
No I haven't seen it... I haven't got that kind of cash at the mo though. I'l need another 9 months!
I spoke to the guy at Oakhills before I bought my 930 (which I absolutely love by the way) and it was available at a starting price of £22,995. I didn't go to see it in the end but it sounds like it has been very well looked after. He must be keen to move it on by now..
Don't be too put off by the on/off nature of the Turbo. As long as you put a bit of thought in to your driving when conditions aren't ideal you won't get in to trouble, and when it's dry the traction is superb. I moved from a 3.2 and when coming out of corners or roundabouts I just make sure I am a bit further past the apex, with the wheels a bit straighter before flooring it.
The Turbo 2 is a wonderful looking car and I'm sure you'll love it.
Good luck with the search.
Don't be too put off by the on/off nature of the Turbo. As long as you put a bit of thought in to your driving when conditions aren't ideal you won't get in to trouble, and when it's dry the traction is superb. I moved from a 3.2 and when coming out of corners or roundabouts I just make sure I am a bit further past the apex, with the wheels a bit straighter before flooring it.
The Turbo 2 is a wonderful looking car and I'm sure you'll love it.
Good luck with the search.
AdvocatusDiaboli said:
Thanks very much for that mate. Good, solid information! Look forward to hearing from Mr UV now...
I think the boot on the 911 couldn't be any smaller than the boot on my cabrio! Good things with 911's is they do have two seats at the back.
Big problem is the fact that the boot doesn't have a hatch in it, unlike even the 944 cab, where you can fold a ski hatch down and get 2.4m timber through from boot to dash (I used to do that in my 944 cab, LOL). In a 911 you need a roofrack for any object longer than the boot dimension, and yes, it can be quite an odd shape, although much deeper than 944 cab. The rear seats in a 911 are probably same size as in a 944 Turbo although 944 cab had smaller rear space from memory due to encroachment of hood and hood mechanism.
mach said:
I spoke to the guy at Oakhills before I bought my 930 (which I absolutely love by the way) and it was available at a starting price of £22,995. I didn't go to see it in the end but it sounds like it has been very well looked after. He must be keen to move it on by now..
Don't be too put off by the on/off nature of the Turbo. As long as you put a bit of thought in to your driving when conditions aren't ideal you won't get in to trouble, and when it's dry the traction is superb. I moved from a 3.2 and when coming out of corners or roundabouts I just make sure I am a bit further past the apex, with the wheels a bit straighter before flooring it.
The Turbo 2 is a wonderful looking car and I'm sure you'll love it.
Good luck with the search.
Thank you Mach.
The 944 turbo has taught me to respect roundabouts and wet weather, especialy in first gear! I do enjoy a bit of a tail wiggle as much as the next man but not in London traffic. Your advice is very much agreed with.
I wish I could afford that Turbo 2 at Oakhills, but unfortunately unless he does zero percent finance, I won't be able to partake of it!
Of course, any PH "free money" can be directed this way.
Just took at a look at the Oakhill website. That Turbo 2 looks gorgeous!
However, it does seem very over-priced. There are a couple of PH classified 964 Turbo at 18-19k. With the same mileage and look in equally good condition.
Question: Do you reckon 964 Turbo prices have bottomed? Or there is still a way to go?
>> Edited by AdvocatusDiaboli on Wednesday 8th March 16:30
I think you'll find the sub 20k ones are left hand drive (which may not bother you of course)
I found most of the nice RHD Turbo 2's to be in the 23-25k area, sometimes going into the high 20's like this one www.gmundcars.com/cars/529/964turbo33.html
I found most of the nice RHD Turbo 2's to be in the 23-25k area, sometimes going into the high 20's like this one www.gmundcars.com/cars/529/964turbo33.html
AdvocatusDiaboli said:
Question: Do you reckon 964 Turbo prices have bottomed? Or there is a way to go?
Don't mean to flog a dead horse by asking the question twice. But what do you guys think?
>> Edited by AdvocatusDiaboli on Wednesday 8th March 17:07
>> Edited by AdvocatusDiaboli on Wednesday 8th March 17:07
Yeah, they will have pretty much bottomed for GOOD examples. Look at good 930s... they'll fetch mid twenties. Any good condition, well maintained RHD Turbo is going to be worth 20k in today's money. Too much performance and prestige to go much lower.
The dogs will fetch as little as 10k tho'; now and in the future. Remember these are expensive cars to run and if they need work doing this puts off buyers. A shoddy turbo will be 10k but need tons doing. I remember a guy on here asking about a cheap 930 that made a dodgy tapping sound in the engine area and bought it cheap... only to find it was a broken head stud and it cost him a fortune getting it fixed. Cheap turbos are cheap for a reason. If you see one for 10k I wouldn't advise buying it!
Get the best example you can; budget between 20k-25k RHD or 17k-23k LHD.
They should still be worth pretty much that in the future assuming they're well looked after, but don't expect them to appreciate like some RSs, GT2s etc.
The dogs will fetch as little as 10k tho'; now and in the future. Remember these are expensive cars to run and if they need work doing this puts off buyers. A shoddy turbo will be 10k but need tons doing. I remember a guy on here asking about a cheap 930 that made a dodgy tapping sound in the engine area and bought it cheap... only to find it was a broken head stud and it cost him a fortune getting it fixed. Cheap turbos are cheap for a reason. If you see one for 10k I wouldn't advise buying it!
Get the best example you can; budget between 20k-25k RHD or 17k-23k LHD.
They should still be worth pretty much that in the future assuming they're well looked after, but don't expect them to appreciate like some RSs, GT2s etc.
I went from having a series of 944s o a 965 3.3 turbo 2. (Just in case you did not know the t2 title indicates the abandonment of the torsion bar suspension and its replacement with coil springs.) My turbo is not a daily driver though my 944s were. For what its worth my opinion is that the turbo 2 is not going to be a daily driver unless you are talking small mileages, not particularly because of reliabilty but because of fuel consumption which is monumentally terrible (15mpg when enthusiastically driven to about 18mpg when taking it easy).
Having owned the car for 3 1/2 years now and getting to the point where I am happy with its condition I shall regale you with some of my experience. When I bought the car it had been well seviced up to the point when the previous owner acquired it. As a consequence the recent repairs had been completed by people with less competence than my grandmother RIP. The 3.3 turbo is a superb motor provided dickheads are kept away from it. If the oil is maintained properly the engine will run until it eventually suffers from stud fatigue. The waisted studs fitted as original need to be replaced with stronger items. This involves engine removal and you may as well rebuild the thing while you are at it. The turbo is thermodynamically fairly close to the limit so valves may need replacing at anything from 60k onwards. Tuning the engine is easily achieved but taking the boost beyond 1 bar will make it vulnerable. The underside panels installed to keep the bottom as flat as possible reduce the air circulation and increase temperature. The air cooled engine can have its longevity improved by removing them but this does detract from the aerodynamics.
The general dynamics are good in comparison to the earllier 911 turbos. The earlier car definately gives you the feeling it wants to bite you, it is a total bitch in the wet. The Turbo 2 is very easy to control in slippy conditions provided you concentrate on making sure its always in the right position on the road.
The brakes on the t2 are great except for the ABS which is primitive. The airconditioning is poor and really quite inadequate for the car. It must be in tip top condition to perform at all. Rear tyres last about 5k so its best to buy something thats not going to change pattern weekly so you can buy tread to match the front which can last 3 times as long.
The big fat rear arches on the turbo suffer from stone chips and the plastic panels will need repainting from time to time. Oil leaks can eventually make the car a fire hazard and need to be kept on top of.
From a practicality point the car can take a couple away on holiday but not a family of 4 unless they are going to wear the same clothes for a week. In contrast the turbo is so raw in the way it delivers its performance it is perfect for scaring the shit out of middle aged female headmistresses (or any other kind of civil servant).
If you want one, buy it, you are only here once, but please bear in mind the 911 turbo of any kind is the most iconic car on the planet and therefore attracts all kinds of comments from people who have never owned one, driven one or even been in one, so be selective in who you listen to.
Having owned the car for 3 1/2 years now and getting to the point where I am happy with its condition I shall regale you with some of my experience. When I bought the car it had been well seviced up to the point when the previous owner acquired it. As a consequence the recent repairs had been completed by people with less competence than my grandmother RIP. The 3.3 turbo is a superb motor provided dickheads are kept away from it. If the oil is maintained properly the engine will run until it eventually suffers from stud fatigue. The waisted studs fitted as original need to be replaced with stronger items. This involves engine removal and you may as well rebuild the thing while you are at it. The turbo is thermodynamically fairly close to the limit so valves may need replacing at anything from 60k onwards. Tuning the engine is easily achieved but taking the boost beyond 1 bar will make it vulnerable. The underside panels installed to keep the bottom as flat as possible reduce the air circulation and increase temperature. The air cooled engine can have its longevity improved by removing them but this does detract from the aerodynamics.
The general dynamics are good in comparison to the earllier 911 turbos. The earlier car definately gives you the feeling it wants to bite you, it is a total bitch in the wet. The Turbo 2 is very easy to control in slippy conditions provided you concentrate on making sure its always in the right position on the road.
The brakes on the t2 are great except for the ABS which is primitive. The airconditioning is poor and really quite inadequate for the car. It must be in tip top condition to perform at all. Rear tyres last about 5k so its best to buy something thats not going to change pattern weekly so you can buy tread to match the front which can last 3 times as long.
The big fat rear arches on the turbo suffer from stone chips and the plastic panels will need repainting from time to time. Oil leaks can eventually make the car a fire hazard and need to be kept on top of.
From a practicality point the car can take a couple away on holiday but not a family of 4 unless they are going to wear the same clothes for a week. In contrast the turbo is so raw in the way it delivers its performance it is perfect for scaring the shit out of middle aged female headmistresses
(or any other kind of civil servant). If you want one, buy it, you are only here once, but please bear in mind the 911 turbo of any kind is the most iconic car on the planet and therefore attracts all kinds of comments from people who have never owned one, driven one or even been in one, so be selective in who you listen to.
cyrus1971 said:
Suggest you buy a good 993 C4 or even at C4S for 25-30K and put a supercharger kit on it. Much more fun and similar cost.
993 TT for 964 T money.
C
Err, for that money you could get a 993tt. (It will cost at least 6k to supercharge a 993 and 33-35k gets you a LHD 993tt if you look carefully).
And resale on supercharged cars etc. may not be great - not to everyone's tastes.
A 993 makes a certain amount of sense if you don't want that turbo wallop of a 964 Turbo 2, but they have quite different characters. You won't get it with a supercharged 993, even though it may be quite quick.
That said, when I was looking for a Turbo 2 I ended up down a path of righteousness that carreraboy could heartily recommend.
nonegreen said:
I went from having a series of 944s o a 965 3.3 turbo 2. (Just in case you did not know the t2 title indicates the abandonment of the torsion bar suspension and its replacement with coil springs.)
I always thought that the T2 refered to fact that it is 2 wheel drive!
I just love 3.6 T2, the 18" speedlines look that absolute dogs, IMO. I think this would be my ideal, either that or the 3.8 RS, which just looks so mean and nasty
Its getting close... I might get one!
Will most dealers do a part-exchange you think?
Only thing I fear is the 965 Turbo 2's higher running costs... Can anyone shed light on this?
If something were to go wrong, does it mean death and destruction to my wallet. Worth buying a warrantee?
Question: was a 964 Turbo Cabriolet ever made? Would love one of those...
>> Edited by AdvocatusDiaboli on Wednesday 29th March 11:40
Will most dealers do a part-exchange you think?
Only thing I fear is the 965 Turbo 2's higher running costs... Can anyone shed light on this?
If something were to go wrong, does it mean death and destruction to my wallet. Worth buying a warrantee?
Question: was a 964 Turbo Cabriolet ever made? Would love one of those...
>> Edited by AdvocatusDiaboli on Wednesday 29th March 11:40
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