996 GT3RS VS 997 GT3.....
Discussion
Well the title says it all really.
People are going to hate me for this and you're probably right but I have a teensy weensy feeling this new 997 GT3 model is going to be a touch on the soft side.
I've got a 996 GT3RS and one of the reasons I LOVE it is because it's bare, and RAW. I don't pretend to be able to extract the most from it, or discernibly notice a weight loss of 100kg, let alone 10-20kg here or there..... BUT... the RS is very satisfying to own in spite of this, partly because of it's INTENT.
I'm slightly concerned that Porsche may not have built something as focussed as the even the normal MK2 996 GT3 with their new car (WHY IS A SUNROOF AVAILABLE??).
I don't want PASM, TC, PCM, PHONES etc... what's it in there for? This is meant to be a hardcore car FFS!
Shame because I really fancy a 997 GT3 - it looks so fab.... anyone got any news on the 997 RS?
I must say that predicting the nature of the car by extrapolating from the options list is pretty tenuous but you could NOT get a sunroof on a MK2 GT3 and RS did NOT have PASM etc...
People are going to hate me for this and you're probably right but I have a teensy weensy feeling this new 997 GT3 model is going to be a touch on the soft side.
I've got a 996 GT3RS and one of the reasons I LOVE it is because it's bare, and RAW. I don't pretend to be able to extract the most from it, or discernibly notice a weight loss of 100kg, let alone 10-20kg here or there..... BUT... the RS is very satisfying to own in spite of this, partly because of it's INTENT.
I'm slightly concerned that Porsche may not have built something as focussed as the even the normal MK2 996 GT3 with their new car (WHY IS A SUNROOF AVAILABLE??).
I don't want PASM, TC, PCM, PHONES etc... what's it in there for? This is meant to be a hardcore car FFS!
Shame because I really fancy a 997 GT3 - it looks so fab.... anyone got any news on the 997 RS?
I must say that predicting the nature of the car by extrapolating from the options list is pretty tenuous but you could NOT get a sunroof on a MK2 GT3 and RS did NOT have PASM etc...
murcielago_boy said:
(WHY IS A SUNROOF AVAILABLE??)
Why should ANY option not be available?
If you want a raw machine with no options, that's great, don't buy them - why should Porsche dictate to their customers that they cannot have a sunroof, or aircon, or sat-nav - why not let the customer decide?
I do agree that it should be possible to order without PASM etc - but equally - maybe they have made the right decision - until we get to drive the thing how can we tell - we are making assumptions of what it will be like.
joe911 said:
(WHY IS A SUNROOF AVAILABLE??)
Why should ANY option not be available?
If you want a raw machine with no options, that's great, don't buy them - why should Porsche dictate to their customers that they cannot have a sunroof, or aircon, or sat-nav - why not let the customer decide?
I do agree that it should be possible to order without PASM etc - but equally - maybe they have made the right decision - until we get to drive the thing how can we tell - we are making assumptions of what it will be like.
I get your point. And your right but my take is like this;
The function of options like those are to broaden the appeal of the car, have more customers, sell more cars. That's all very well and good (if you're the CFO at Porsche)
But if you're a punter that wants a car that is exclusive, with a narrow range of the CORRECT focus (like previous 911 RS models) then doing this is just dilution of product that is was originally designed to appeal to a small group of repeat customers....
As a result, you lose this hardcore group and build something which is likely to be too harsh for the C4 Cabrio owners... result? an unresolved car with plumetting residuals and another kick in the nuts for the brands image.
>> Edited by murcielago_boy on Thursday 9th March 18:28
Remember that the 996GT3 MkI was not eligible for US importation. MkII was, but by then the 996 was bordering on being a run-out model.
997GT3 will be US elgible from the off. Those people tend to like flash cars that are laden with soft options.
At the same time, it would make sense, as their 911 car (997) gets softer, for Porsche to make something that fits in the expanding niche between it and whatever is the next less comfortable rear engined car.
Following that line of thinking, one might expect the new RS to be a bit harder than the 996 version was, so that there is also a bigger gap between it and the GT3 Clubsport than there was in the 996 versions of both.
997GT3 will be US elgible from the off. Those people tend to like flash cars that are laden with soft options.
At the same time, it would make sense, as their 911 car (997) gets softer, for Porsche to make something that fits in the expanding niche between it and whatever is the next less comfortable rear engined car.
Following that line of thinking, one might expect the new RS to be a bit harder than the 996 version was, so that there is also a bigger gap between it and the GT3 Clubsport than there was in the 996 versions of both.
I think its quite obvious really and Porsche have made a decision to sell more marketable cars to the general public and not targetting enthusiasts with their new model range.This has obvioulsy been successful with Porsche now the most profitable car company in the world ,however for Porsche purists clearly bad news.The Gt3 rs,GT2,etc are obviously awesome cars and true to tradition however they collapsed in the second hand market as buyers for these sort of cars are few and far between.In the past a driver of an air cooled 911 was usually an enthusiast prepared to suffer its failings,now ,however the majority of Porsche owners want to drive up motorways and a/b roads quickly and the hand the keys to the missus to go shopping at Sainsburys in.I saw a woman the other day struggling to get 3 kids and a buggy out of a 997s in Tesco's car park whilst banging the door against a fence...i think that sums it up!
The hardcore 911's are a niche and trackday enthusiasts now have a wide choice between 964RS, 993RS, 996GT3 MK1/Mk2/RS, 996GT2, etc to choose from. If many switch to the 997 GT3, it's not going to help residuals for any of the "raw" models because supply will probably outweigh demand. Seems that's what happened to Mk2 GT3, hence the poor residuals.......I thought my Mk1 GT3 CS (rhd import) wouldn't drop much after I sold it last year for £48k but I reckon it's now a £40k car in private sale.
What's an averagely spec'd 997 GT3 going to cost? £90k? Not sure about the PASM but maybe Porsche are going to calibrate it so the stiff setting is on par with current RS handling but the softer option gives a better B road ride. Could be the best of both worlds.....or it could be a bad compromise. Until some drive reports are in, it's difficult to say.
For the time being, I'd rather put £60-£65k into a GT3RS.
P.S. Any news on 997RS spec? Sequential box, more power, different aero, price, etc?
What's an averagely spec'd 997 GT3 going to cost? £90k? Not sure about the PASM but maybe Porsche are going to calibrate it so the stiff setting is on par with current RS handling but the softer option gives a better B road ride. Could be the best of both worlds.....or it could be a bad compromise. Until some drive reports are in, it's difficult to say.
For the time being, I'd rather put £60-£65k into a GT3RS.
P.S. Any news on 997RS spec? Sequential box, more power, different aero, price, etc?
Not really comparing like for like and making a few assumptions here I feel.
The 997GT3 does sound a bit softer than 996 GT3, but I like the sound of it, compliant and more suited to UK roads can only be a good thing. I think the 997GT3RS will be just as hard core as the 996GT3RS when it arrives, the current MK2 GT3 isn’t really that good as an every day car unless your mister hardcore Porsche driver. So the slightly softer GT3 opens up the Porsche range even more than before, but will hopefully give you the full fat GT3 experience in a more usable package.
Don’t see how that’s a bad thing unless you’ve got a 996 GT3, Porsche aren’t in the habit of taking a step backwards in performance.
The 997GT3 does sound a bit softer than 996 GT3, but I like the sound of it, compliant and more suited to UK roads can only be a good thing. I think the 997GT3RS will be just as hard core as the 996GT3RS when it arrives, the current MK2 GT3 isn’t really that good as an every day car unless your mister hardcore Porsche driver. So the slightly softer GT3 opens up the Porsche range even more than before, but will hopefully give you the full fat GT3 experience in a more usable package.
Don’t see how that’s a bad thing unless you’ve got a 996 GT3, Porsche aren’t in the habit of taking a step backwards in performance.
AL001 said:
The hardcore 911's are a niche and trackday enthusiasts now have a wide choice between 964RS, 993RS, 996GT3 MK1/Mk2/RS, 996GT2, etc to choose from. If many switch to the 997 GT3, it's not going to help residuals for any of the "raw" models because supply will probably outweigh demand. Seems that's what happened to Mk2 GT3, hence the poor residuals.......I thought my Mk1 GT3 CS (rhd import) wouldn't drop much after I sold it last year for £48k but I reckon it's now a £40k car in private sale.
What's an averagely spec'd 997 GT3 going to cost? £90k? Not sure about the PASM but maybe Porsche are going to calibrate it so the stiff setting is on par with current RS handling but the softer option gives a better B road ride. Could be the best of both worlds.....or it could be a bad compromise. Until some drive reports are in, it's difficult to say.
For the time being, I'd rather put £60-£65k into a GT3RS.
P.S. Any news on 997RS spec? Sequential box, more power, different aero, price, etc?
I suspect, in an educated kinda way that it will be based on the wider and heavier 997C4S chasis and will have alli turbo doors and some carbon but no plexi rear screen. A little more power than the standard GT3 and the same short gearing compared to the 996GT3. Ceramics may come as standard and it may run very soft tyres. I wouldn't have sequential but it would have passive damping.
Thats what i would suspect it would be like ........ kind of.
Oh, and it would cost about 95k before options, and porsche may say that they will build 40 but will end up building 100.
If I'm right, A 996RS with suspension, ECU re map and exhaust will be smarter money.
Steve
steve rance said:
I suspect, in an educated kinda way that it will be based on the wider and heavier 997C4S chasis and will have alli turbo doors and some carbon but no plexi rear screen. A little more power than the standard GT3 and the same short gearing compared to the 996GT3. Ceramics may come as standard and it may run very soft tyres. I wouldn't have sequential but it would have passive damping.
Thats what i would suspect it would be like ........ kind of.
Oh, and it would cost about 95k before options, and porsche may say that they will build 40 but will end up building 100.
If I'm right, A 996RS with suspension, ECU re map and exhaust will be smarter money.
Steve
I agree.
Its also worth noting that it appears as if the new 997RS will be available in different colours. I presume this means we won't be seeing white with blue/red RS decals?
Depreciation on the 996 RS, although not over, appears to have stabilised (touch wood, touch wood!) and I think is evidenced by fewer cars being for sale and still costing a smidgen under £70K (from an OPC).
Dare I say it, but I suspect CURRENT owners of the GT3RS are finally the "type" of people the car was originally designed for - i.e US...
Without sounding arrogant, the hardcore customer base that I think I belong to, is actually the small group of people that are supporting RS residuals as we're not all rushing out to buy the lastest variant. What I'm trying to say is that without us, (if Porsche broaden the customer base and build less focussed products) Porsche can expect every single "more aggressive" 911 variant to have residuals that resemble a prize pig falling off a cliff..... (compare the unresolved 996GT2 with the ultra-hardcore 993GT2)
If Porsche want to add PASM, TC, Sunroof, roof-rack, heated seats etc then FINE - they can expect their cars to be worth 40% of list price after 3 years and the badge to have all the image of a FORD in a few years after that. THEN when it hurts the bottom line and sales start to fall we'll see what happens.
Let's hope the 997GT3 represents an expansion in the range as opposed to a replacement for the 996 variant. Roll on the 997 GT3RS - that'll be the true test.
Note: I've totally dismissed a car that I haven't even driven yet...... oh well.
Dare I say it, but I suspect CURRENT owners of the GT3RS are finally the "type" of people the car was originally designed for - i.e US...
Without sounding arrogant, the hardcore customer base that I think I belong to, is actually the small group of people that are supporting RS residuals as we're not all rushing out to buy the lastest variant. What I'm trying to say is that without us, (if Porsche broaden the customer base and build less focussed products) Porsche can expect every single "more aggressive" 911 variant to have residuals that resemble a prize pig falling off a cliff..... (compare the unresolved 996GT2 with the ultra-hardcore 993GT2)
If Porsche want to add PASM, TC, Sunroof, roof-rack, heated seats etc then FINE - they can expect their cars to be worth 40% of list price after 3 years and the badge to have all the image of a FORD in a few years after that. THEN when it hurts the bottom line and sales start to fall we'll see what happens.
Let's hope the 997GT3 represents an expansion in the range as opposed to a replacement for the 996 variant. Roll on the 997 GT3RS - that'll be the true test.
Note: I've totally dismissed a car that I haven't even driven yet...... oh well.
flemke said:
997GT3 will be US elgible from the off. Those people tend to like flash cars that are laden with soft options.
Flemke, whilst I sort of don't disagree with your implication that Porsche thinking might bend toward the US market I don't agree with your line above.
If you check the rennlist forums you will find a very similar - almost identical - band of hardcore enthusiasts like us lot. If anything they are more likely to be ahead of us lot with aftermarket performance upgrading.
I would just love to hear the real Porsche thinking behind the whole 997 model range concept.
I think the point is, by extending the options list you have a wider audience..particularly in the US....look at the first few years of Cayenne sales....quite astonishing.
I think there are a relatively small number of enthisiastic forum contributers compared to the number of cars Porche sells or indeed aspires to sell...
I think there are a relatively small number of enthisiastic forum contributers compared to the number of cars Porche sells or indeed aspires to sell...
clubsport said:
I think the point is, by extending the options list you have a wider audience..particularly in the US....look at the first few years of Cayenne sales....quite astonishing.
I think there are a relatively small number of enthisiastic forum contributers compared to the number of cars Porche sells or indeed aspires to sell...
True, this is a very small bubble, how many people regularly post on here, 40 ish? How many read and don't post, maybe 200 more people. Not exactly a large or well balanced group representing the common man either, which I see as a good thing btw.
I loved the look of the 997 GT3, and no doubt the RS version will be aimed at the hardcore enthusiats.
The cost - likely £90k? Makes a very big cost to upgrade from a circa £40-45k Mk1 car.
I know its impossible to say is it "worth" £45ks worth of more fun for me to upgrade; however, does make me think if i can get my wife her coveted Cayenne S and keep the mk1 for the same price.
Guess i'll just have to wait for the 997RS to depreciate for four or five yrs.
Cheers
Ajit.
The cost - likely £90k? Makes a very big cost to upgrade from a circa £40-45k Mk1 car.
I know its impossible to say is it "worth" £45ks worth of more fun for me to upgrade; however, does make me think if i can get my wife her coveted Cayenne S and keep the mk1 for the same price.
Guess i'll just have to wait for the 997RS to depreciate for four or five yrs.
Cheers
Ajit.
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