How best to sell a late 996 at the moment?
Discussion
A colleague needs to move his car on - the company are moving him to the US.
I feel a bit of an obligation to help out as I found the car for him.
I don't have much experience at selling 'expensive' cars (circa £40k I'd have thought). Do I use PHeads/Top Marques etc, or is there really no market for private sales and I should tell him to take the best dealer offer?
Any tips based on recent experience much appreciated.
Cheers,
SS7
PS If it helps its a silver C4 Tip 3.6 with low miles.
PPS He's had a specialist's quote already, so he know's all about the depreciation thanks.
>> Edited by shoestring7 on Monday 20th March 18:18
I feel a bit of an obligation to help out as I found the car for him.
I don't have much experience at selling 'expensive' cars (circa £40k I'd have thought). Do I use PHeads/Top Marques etc, or is there really no market for private sales and I should tell him to take the best dealer offer?
Any tips based on recent experience much appreciated.
Cheers,
SS7
PS If it helps its a silver C4 Tip 3.6 with low miles.
PPS He's had a specialist's quote already, so he know's all about the depreciation thanks.
>> Edited by shoestring7 on Monday 20th March 18:18
If you advertise it privately, just be realistic about the price. There's no sense in marking it up at retail OPC value, as you'll get little interest. Just have a look at Autotrader, and you'll get a fair reflection of a price. I've always marked my cars up at the lower end of the right scale.
I just sold my 964 here on piston heads. The ad is free too. It costs £15 for a 2 week advertisement in the autotrader internet site.
Be aware of timewasters, and just plain unreasonable prople who think they are mechanics, but in actual fact they've only ever read books about buying cars. You might get a few frustrating no shows, and people pulling out of deals etc.
The other option is to go for a sale or return. Northway near Reading do this, as do 911 Virgin and Paragon. They'll take a cut, but it might mean it shifting quickly. I would ever do this through well established companies.
I just sold my 964 here on piston heads. The ad is free too. It costs £15 for a 2 week advertisement in the autotrader internet site.
Be aware of timewasters, and just plain unreasonable prople who think they are mechanics, but in actual fact they've only ever read books about buying cars. You might get a few frustrating no shows, and people pulling out of deals etc.
The other option is to go for a sale or return. Northway near Reading do this, as do 911 Virgin and Paragon. They'll take a cut, but it might mean it shifting quickly. I would ever do this through well established companies.
Expensive cars are very hard to sell privately. I advertised my 997 C2S cab (6 months ago) in the Sunday Times, Top Marques/Autotrader and on PH and didn't have one serious enquiry - even though I priced it to be the cheapest on the market by £5k.
I sold to an OPC (for £6k under list - not bad after 6 months) in the end.
Will
I sold to an OPC (for £6k under list - not bad after 6 months) in the end.
Will
Just picked up on this thread. For what it`s worth I think SOR is a potentially a very bad way to dispose of a car.
Firstly why would it work. Well it saves the dealer having to pay finance costs on a stocking loan. But sit and work out how much that actually saves. On say a £35k car in stock for 2 months you`re talking around £350. If it`s a Carrera GT then you`re talking £2,500 and possibly it starts to make sense. If it`s a really hard car to value then it might work, there are some cars that could be worth £40, £50 or £60k and as a dealer you would naturally assume the worst but hope for the best. But let`s face it there isn`t much on the Porsche market that can`t be valued to within a couple of grand.
Why wouldn`t it work. Where to start:
Dealer goes out of business, doesn`t take a great margin out of the cars but still has bills to pay. Eventually the vat man decides enough is enough and calls it a day. You car has sold, no money left in the pot. Goodbye car.
Dealer`s salesman has a bit of an off in the car whilst on a "test drive" and we`ve debated the merits of being allowed a "good hard" test drive on this forum recently. Dealer very appologetic but as we know hasn`t got the money to buy it off you. You start to take action against him and even win judgement but as we`ve already established no money in the pot. Get on the blower to your local bodyshop and the bank to get a loan to repair the car.
Dealer just decides to up sticks from his rented showroom and do the off with your car
Dealer has a few bits off your car (like the good gearbox for instance), and then gives it back when it doesn`t sell.
Dealer has the car in stock, supposedly spends some money on it, car doesn`t sell and you end up having to pay for the "work" to get your own car back.
Sits with dealer for months and months, doesn`t sell and the dealer eventually gets a "trade bid" for you which is £2k less than you could have got cash for the car 4 months ago.
There`s even a lovely little hook you can use whereby you arrange for the owner to bring the car to your showroom to meet a potential buyer. You turn up at duely appointed hour only to be told customer stuck in a meeting. Not to worry you leave the car with the dealer so the "customer" can see the car at the weekend. Suprise suprise customer never shows / buys another car / couldn`t get finance / suddenly says he needs to p/x / didn`t like car / etc. But not to worry leave the car with us and we`ll see what we can do for you. Back of the net - car landed.
And so it goes on. Would you leave a briefcase full of £40,000 cash with someone you`ve never met before and tell them to look after that and try & sell it for you ? I wouldn`t.
With an outright sale you know where you stand & the money is yours to do with as you will. If you`re in business how much could you make with the money in the 1,2,3 or 4 months it might take to sell and especially with a newer car how much will your car be worth then if it doesn`t sell.
Just something to think about.
>> Edited by Henry-F on Thursday 30th March 15:42
Firstly why would it work. Well it saves the dealer having to pay finance costs on a stocking loan. But sit and work out how much that actually saves. On say a £35k car in stock for 2 months you`re talking around £350. If it`s a Carrera GT then you`re talking £2,500 and possibly it starts to make sense. If it`s a really hard car to value then it might work, there are some cars that could be worth £40, £50 or £60k and as a dealer you would naturally assume the worst but hope for the best. But let`s face it there isn`t much on the Porsche market that can`t be valued to within a couple of grand.
Why wouldn`t it work. Where to start:
Dealer goes out of business, doesn`t take a great margin out of the cars but still has bills to pay. Eventually the vat man decides enough is enough and calls it a day. You car has sold, no money left in the pot. Goodbye car.
Dealer`s salesman has a bit of an off in the car whilst on a "test drive" and we`ve debated the merits of being allowed a "good hard" test drive on this forum recently. Dealer very appologetic but as we know hasn`t got the money to buy it off you. You start to take action against him and even win judgement but as we`ve already established no money in the pot. Get on the blower to your local bodyshop and the bank to get a loan to repair the car.
Dealer just decides to up sticks from his rented showroom and do the off with your car
Dealer has a few bits off your car (like the good gearbox for instance), and then gives it back when it doesn`t sell.
Dealer has the car in stock, supposedly spends some money on it, car doesn`t sell and you end up having to pay for the "work" to get your own car back.
Sits with dealer for months and months, doesn`t sell and the dealer eventually gets a "trade bid" for you which is £2k less than you could have got cash for the car 4 months ago.
There`s even a lovely little hook you can use whereby you arrange for the owner to bring the car to your showroom to meet a potential buyer. You turn up at duely appointed hour only to be told customer stuck in a meeting. Not to worry you leave the car with the dealer so the "customer" can see the car at the weekend. Suprise suprise customer never shows / buys another car / couldn`t get finance / suddenly says he needs to p/x / didn`t like car / etc. But not to worry leave the car with us and we`ll see what we can do for you. Back of the net - car landed.
And so it goes on. Would you leave a briefcase full of £40,000 cash with someone you`ve never met before and tell them to look after that and try & sell it for you ? I wouldn`t.
With an outright sale you know where you stand & the money is yours to do with as you will. If you`re in business how much could you make with the money in the 1,2,3 or 4 months it might take to sell and especially with a newer car how much will your car be worth then if it doesn`t sell.
Just something to think about.
>> Edited by Henry-F on Thursday 30th March 15:42
Although it sounds quite hysterical what Henry is saying,there certainly is a lot of truth in it.I am sure we all know the companies he is talking about who do this sort of thing but no-one can mention.
There are companies who own no cars at all and sell other peoples cars and could potentially vanish of the face of the earth at any time (with your car).
Although all of Henry's ads ask for cars that he can sell on a commission sale basis,we all know that he owns the majority of his cars.And indeed does RSJ.Currently we have 2 cars on SOR.The Vanquish & the 360.
But there certainly are times when a SOR does work and its when the car is expensive,by that i mean at least £40000.
Any less than that and its hardly worth it.
As a company we dont try to get cars on commission sale but if we cant agree a price with a customer to buy,we will offer a return on SOR.We wont offer SOR on anything under £40000
Otherwise you are just going to have your car sitting around to make maybe an extra £1000 out of an SOR.
So Henry's point i think is,and i agree to a point - dont mess about with SOR,come and sell to people like me and Henry who have the cash on the spot to buy your car.
There are many decent Porsche garages so Henry shouldnt generalise as much as he does i feel as it makes all dealers look bad.
We have probably sold about 50 - 75 cars i'd say on SOR and there were some excellent results for customers.
But frankly we'd rather buy the cars as then there is more profit !
Unfortunately there are unscrupulous dealers who sell cars and dont pay off the finance or even pay the seller.They tend to prey on meek,vulnerable people who wont fight back when it goes wrong,so be very fussy about who you deal with.
Obviously recommendations on previous conduct are the best way to go.
Joel
There are companies who own no cars at all and sell other peoples cars and could potentially vanish of the face of the earth at any time (with your car).
Although all of Henry's ads ask for cars that he can sell on a commission sale basis,we all know that he owns the majority of his cars.And indeed does RSJ.Currently we have 2 cars on SOR.The Vanquish & the 360.
But there certainly are times when a SOR does work and its when the car is expensive,by that i mean at least £40000.
Any less than that and its hardly worth it.
As a company we dont try to get cars on commission sale but if we cant agree a price with a customer to buy,we will offer a return on SOR.We wont offer SOR on anything under £40000
Otherwise you are just going to have your car sitting around to make maybe an extra £1000 out of an SOR.
So Henry's point i think is,and i agree to a point - dont mess about with SOR,come and sell to people like me and Henry who have the cash on the spot to buy your car.
There are many decent Porsche garages so Henry shouldnt generalise as much as he does i feel as it makes all dealers look bad.
We have probably sold about 50 - 75 cars i'd say on SOR and there were some excellent results for customers.
But frankly we'd rather buy the cars as then there is more profit !
Unfortunately there are unscrupulous dealers who sell cars and dont pay off the finance or even pay the seller.They tend to prey on meek,vulnerable people who wont fight back when it goes wrong,so be very fussy about who you deal with.
Obviously recommendations on previous conduct are the best way to go.
Joel
)..............As Joel says above SOR needn't be all doom and gloom.
For example, I know that RPM Porsche (www.rpmporsche.com) have successfully sold numerous cars on an SOR basis.
IMHO it would be worth giving them a call to discuss - in my experience their customer service is exemplary.
Hope this helps and best of luck
For example, I know that RPM Porsche (www.rpmporsche.com) have successfully sold numerous cars on an SOR basis.
IMHO it would be worth giving them a call to discuss - in my experience their customer service is exemplary.
Hope this helps and best of luck
Henry-F said:
There`s even a lovely little hook you can use whereby you arrange for the owner to bring the car to your showroom to meet a potential buyer. You turn up at duely appointed hour only to be told customer stuck in a meeting. Not to worry you leave the car with the dealer so the "customer" can see the car at the weekend. Suprise suprise customer never shows / buys another car / couldn`t get finance / suddenly says he needs to p/x / didn`t like car / etc. But not to worry leave the car with us and we`ll see what we can do for you. Back of the net - car landed.
Honest Words Monsieur
Sorry for late response but Henry- The ridiculous trade offers that I have received on my Porsches and the inability to sell them at privately at realistic prices has meant that the only reasonable way to sell a Porsche (for me) has been SOR and it has worked well on each occaison. I guess the risks are there but we all know the risk/reward relationship and its hardly a gamble if you are dealing with a trader with a good reputation.
Joel,
Presumably the price you offer would be influenced by the warranty you have to give on the car when you sell it on?
If you buy a car in good faith, sell it on shortly after, and then the engine blows up, presumably you're left with a hefty bill? So it's only to be expected that your offer price when buying in has to take into account these risks?
Marc
Presumably the price you offer would be influenced by the warranty you have to give on the car when you sell it on?
If you buy a car in good faith, sell it on shortly after, and then the engine blows up, presumably you're left with a hefty bill? So it's only to be expected that your offer price when buying in has to take into account these risks?
Marc
a993lad said:
Joel,
Presumably the price you offer would be influenced by the warranty you have to give on the car when you sell it on?
If you buy a car in good faith, sell it on shortly after, and then the engine blows up, presumably you're left with a hefty bill? So it's only to be expected that your offer price when buying in has to take into account these risks?
Marc
A cheeky little 'cross thread post'
Er, I was just offering up an explanation why dealers like Joel might not be offering us top dollar when we sell our cars to him.
Quality dealers with good warranties and after-sales support come at a price. And hat price is inherent in the difference between what they buy and sell for.
Having said that, I've always suspected that the support you get might not be as great as they promise so I try to buy privately.
But if you get comfort from a dealer warranty, then don't also expect a private sale value when you offer the car back to them. ;-)
Quality dealers with good warranties and after-sales support come at a price. And hat price is inherent in the difference between what they buy and sell for.
Having said that, I've always suspected that the support you get might not be as great as they promise so I try to buy privately.
But if you get comfort from a dealer warranty, then don't also expect a private sale value when you offer the car back to them. ;-)
a993lad said:
Joel,
Presumably the price you offer would be influenced by the warranty you have to give on the car when you sell it on?
If you buy a car in good faith, sell it on shortly after, and then the engine blows up, presumably you're left with a hefty bill? So it's only to be expected that your offer price when buying in has to take into account these risks?
Marc
I am sick of stealers thinking that their margin on each car has to cover any failure. I make the effort to maintain the car, the dealer insists on full service historh, is given ample chance to inspect the car and even then decides that only a £6k-£10k (the latter in the case of OPCs) is enough to warrant the risk to stock and sell a car. The one that I find the most surprsing is the "special offer" price that a certain marque specialist where you can pay full retail price for the car as is or pay an extra few thousand to bring it to a proper standard!
>> Edited by paracetamol on Friday 7th April 23:23
I think our "bug price", (to which the annonymous paracetamol was refering), works very well. One of the main reasons we launched it around 7 years ago now was that I was fed up with dealers who said they were going to service a car prior to delivery only to then give it a wipe over with an oily rag and top up the fluids. If you were really lucky you got brand new oil (of a certain standard), and sometimes even a replacement oil filter. We sent (and still send) cars away to reputable specialists acting on their recommendations for additional work. A far cry from most dealers selling older cars.
If you really want to know what retail outfits are like ask the people who service cars. Ask them what happens when they phone the dealer up and say the car needs X doing. In many instances we are the only dealer who a service garage does regular work for because they can`t stand the dealer`s "patch it up" or "can`t you do it a bit cheaper" approach. The benefit we have is that I know what is involved in all the jobs. I started my career buying cars, mending them and then selling them on. I also mended cars for people.
I would rate our retail sale standards against anyone else in the country. In some instances I think we are even better than the main dealers as we have every retail sale car serviced regardless of whether it is due in the next 3 months or 3k miles or not for instance. With our retail sale cars we don`t hide behind the "wear & tear" clause either during our guarantee period. We should have spotted the brake pads needed changing so it`s down to us. The problem is that all costs money, especially on an older car so if our retail prices aren`t the cheapest out there I`m sorry - but I can easily justify them. Because I`m a thoroughly decent bloke we also offer 2 other ways to buy a car that does bring the price down if that is your focus.
Different people want different levels of hand holding and we try to work with them.
As I have said before we own the vast majority of our cars outright (of 53 cars currently in stock just 2 are sale or return, a 993 and a 944, (we are also selling a Honda as a favour for someone alongside rather than as part of our business). We make no distinction with customer`s cars in terms of offering them at the retail price or standing by them if problems arise.
My fear with Sale or return is two fold:
Firstly I know there will be at least one significant failure in the next 12 months or so whereby a retailer folds owing customers money. There are also people operating SOR schemes at the moment which I think are questionable in terms of the way they actually make their money.
My second fear is that we go down the route of brokers selling cars on behalf of their owners and the buyer gets left unprotected when things go wrong. You only have to look at the second hand boat market place to see what a nightmare that is. Not only do you lose protection, you also lose skill and knowledge because the people selling the product have little or no practical abilities. Their skill lies in accountancy, marketing, IT, finance, publishing or some other related trade but not the smelly and dirty business of the motor car.
I am immensely proud of the fact that in 20 years of selling used cars the only time I have ever needed to seek legal advice is to buy property. My mobile phone number hasn`t changed, I haven`t needed to change the "parent company" to wipe problems under the carpet. I am fully aware of my obligations when selling a car, people come to us because we are supposed to have knowledge - there are resposibilities and obligations that go with that.
Only the other week we turned down a certain £6,000 profit on a car because we spotted a very subtle problem which would mean the new oner wasn`t quite getting what they thought they were. So subtle in fact the car is currently residing for sale at a marque specialist as we speak. We aren`t perfect but were trying to pull in the right direction.
Henry
If you really want to know what retail outfits are like ask the people who service cars. Ask them what happens when they phone the dealer up and say the car needs X doing. In many instances we are the only dealer who a service garage does regular work for because they can`t stand the dealer`s "patch it up" or "can`t you do it a bit cheaper" approach. The benefit we have is that I know what is involved in all the jobs. I started my career buying cars, mending them and then selling them on. I also mended cars for people.
I would rate our retail sale standards against anyone else in the country. In some instances I think we are even better than the main dealers as we have every retail sale car serviced regardless of whether it is due in the next 3 months or 3k miles or not for instance. With our retail sale cars we don`t hide behind the "wear & tear" clause either during our guarantee period. We should have spotted the brake pads needed changing so it`s down to us. The problem is that all costs money, especially on an older car so if our retail prices aren`t the cheapest out there I`m sorry - but I can easily justify them. Because I`m a thoroughly decent bloke we also offer 2 other ways to buy a car that does bring the price down if that is your focus.
Different people want different levels of hand holding and we try to work with them.
As I have said before we own the vast majority of our cars outright (of 53 cars currently in stock just 2 are sale or return, a 993 and a 944, (we are also selling a Honda as a favour for someone alongside rather than as part of our business). We make no distinction with customer`s cars in terms of offering them at the retail price or standing by them if problems arise.
My fear with Sale or return is two fold:
Firstly I know there will be at least one significant failure in the next 12 months or so whereby a retailer folds owing customers money. There are also people operating SOR schemes at the moment which I think are questionable in terms of the way they actually make their money.
My second fear is that we go down the route of brokers selling cars on behalf of their owners and the buyer gets left unprotected when things go wrong. You only have to look at the second hand boat market place to see what a nightmare that is. Not only do you lose protection, you also lose skill and knowledge because the people selling the product have little or no practical abilities. Their skill lies in accountancy, marketing, IT, finance, publishing or some other related trade but not the smelly and dirty business of the motor car.
I am immensely proud of the fact that in 20 years of selling used cars the only time I have ever needed to seek legal advice is to buy property. My mobile phone number hasn`t changed, I haven`t needed to change the "parent company" to wipe problems under the carpet. I am fully aware of my obligations when selling a car, people come to us because we are supposed to have knowledge - there are resposibilities and obligations that go with that.
Only the other week we turned down a certain £6,000 profit on a car because we spotted a very subtle problem which would mean the new oner wasn`t quite getting what they thought they were. So subtle in fact the car is currently residing for sale at a marque specialist as we speak. We aren`t perfect but were trying to pull in the right direction.
Henry
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