As soon as I mention the mileage...
Discussion
As some of you may have noticed already, I've got my 964 up in the clasifieds. Its an immaculate car, both inside and out. It has only had 3 owners before me, and I've only done 2 k miles in it. I bougt it off a mate who is Mr Fastidious etc etc - its a pampered example.
Here's a little linky www.pistonheads.com/sales/70894.htm
Ok, great I hear you say, so what?
The car's 2nd owner had a bit of a commute - 75 miles each way on the M6 from Cumbria to Merseyside, which he did every day for about 5 years, taking the car from 10k miles to 112K miles, getting it fully serviced at OPCs all the while...
As soon as I mention the mileage to anybody interested they virtually put the phone down on me, even though everything else about the car is perfect. To drive it you would think its done 34K not 134K, which I think is reasonable since it probably just sat on the motorway plodding along for an hour and a bit each morning and evening.
Are we all so obsessed with mileage that we ignore every other aspect when buying a vehicle.
The build quality of this era of porsche is equal to the Mercs of this era and they are 1/2 million milers!
Or maybe there is something else that I'm missing.. what do you all think?
Cheers
James
Here's a little linky www.pistonheads.com/sales/70894.htm
Ok, great I hear you say, so what?
The car's 2nd owner had a bit of a commute - 75 miles each way on the M6 from Cumbria to Merseyside, which he did every day for about 5 years, taking the car from 10k miles to 112K miles, getting it fully serviced at OPCs all the while...
As soon as I mention the mileage to anybody interested they virtually put the phone down on me, even though everything else about the car is perfect. To drive it you would think its done 34K not 134K, which I think is reasonable since it probably just sat on the motorway plodding along for an hour and a bit each morning and evening.
Are we all so obsessed with mileage that we ignore every other aspect when buying a vehicle.
The build quality of this era of porsche is equal to the Mercs of this era and they are 1/2 million milers!
Or maybe there is something else that I'm missing.. what do you all think?
Cheers
James
It's probably overpriced. Not what you want to hear, admittedly, but my guess is that you'd need to drop it a grand or two to shift it quickly, especially as it's in an unusual (but nice!) colour. A silver example with 87k miles would get the money you want without problem, I'm sure.
I think it fair to say the private man (or woman) when buying of the private man (or woman) is looking for something of a bargain and whilst I havent seen the vehicle it does look as though someone could buy the car off a specialist for that sort of figure, so where`s the incentive to purchase privately ?
In fairness I`ve never sold a car privately in my life so may be talking utter bollox but there you go !
Henry
In fairness I`ve never sold a car privately in my life so may be talking utter bollox but there you go !
Henry
domster said:
It's probably overpriced.
'fraid I have to agree with Domster here -
Had my (admittably LHD) 964 in the classifieds here for £12.5k with barely a sniff...
Its now at eporsch on comm. sale for £12,995 and still little interest.
a quick scout of autotrader reveals various 993s for sub £20k and even a 996 with 64k for £20k....
Blame these pesky 996's moving in to the cheap end of the market coz they seem to have hammered the values on the 993s and 964s below them*....
*as pecieved by the general punter - no further comment
TonyHetherington said:
If I may suggest also - not mentioning the mileage in your advert (I can't seem to see it) always puts me off. You mention high miles - so state the mileage and explain your care for the car (as you have done).
Hello James,
Have to agree with me good pal Tony here - not putting the mileage in the ad automatically makes a buyer assume that the mileage is galactic.
When you did tell me the mileage after a couple of emails, you wrote a very succinct history fully justifying the high number, which shows in itself that deep down you know that it does matter, no matter what other people may say.
I love your car James (apart fron the steering wheel that is
) and if it had been £13-£14k then I would probably have bought your car there and then back in Nvember. At that price I would have a more modern car in a well cool colour combo (for me, bearing in mind I like wierd colours!), known history, and a bit of money in the bank in case any work did suddenly need doing on it. You need to bring the price down and be upfront with the mileage I'm afraid James.
Good luck.
al.
>> Edited by burriana on Monday 10th April 14:52
An important aspect of selling anything is qualifying buyers. You need to put the mileage in the advert - your current text could indicate that it's 200K, so it's probably putting people off even ringing you. if you put the mileage down, anyone ringing in is going to be qualified that the mileage isn't a problem.
I sold my 964 earlier in the year for £18k, but it had 64K miles, and had loads of work done on it and FPSH. With your car, everyone is thinking about a top-end overhaul which is going to cost upwards of £3k.
964s have taken a hit in the last 6 months too.
To be honest, I think it needs to be at £13,995.
I sold my 964 earlier in the year for £18k, but it had 64K miles, and had loads of work done on it and FPSH. With your car, everyone is thinking about a top-end overhaul which is going to cost upwards of £3k.
964s have taken a hit in the last 6 months too.
To be honest, I think it needs to be at £13,995.
Totally agree with all of the above.
1.I will never, ever enquire about a car when the mileage isn't published in the advert - it suggests that you're hiding something.
2. You have to look at the competition before you sell your car. Yours looks lovely, but I'd have check out the lower mileage example first and I'd also be thinking about whether or not I could sell it on if I wanted to. Your experience suggests that I'd struggle.
3. At that mileage I'd be looking at top end rebuilds, clutch replacements etc. If they'd happened recently (or at all even) then I'd be more interested.
1.I will never, ever enquire about a car when the mileage isn't published in the advert - it suggests that you're hiding something.
2. You have to look at the competition before you sell your car. Yours looks lovely, but I'd have check out the lower mileage example first and I'd also be thinking about whether or not I could sell it on if I wanted to. Your experience suggests that I'd struggle.
3. At that mileage I'd be looking at top end rebuilds, clutch replacements etc. If they'd happened recently (or at all even) then I'd be more interested.
Hi Guys,
Thanks for all the replies.
First let me answer the question of why the mileage is not specifically, in the ad:
Most 133K mile cars I've seen over the years have been pretty tired, The bodywork is at least scuffed , probably dented and some signs of corrosion if not on top, certainly underneath are evident. The interiors are often pretty dogeared, a car of that mileage would normally have endured a countless number of door opening clamberings in and out and doors slammed shut again. The engine, particularly on a city car will have been started and stopped countless times, with all the wear inherent in the cold start process, many many times, the gearbox and clutch will have been well used - I couldn't guess at how many time I operate the clutch when stuck in London Traffic (no I don’t drive this car in the city... :-) ) but its going to be a lot.
I was looking at a site the other day where a guy was describing cars as 20 footers 10 footers and 1 footers. He meant that a car could be described as good from 20 feet but when you got to 10 feet you saw all its faults or a really good car you couldn’t see faults until 1 foot. This was an interesting idea I thought.
Now, this 964 of mine has lived a rather extraordinary life in comparison to the other high mileage cars I've viewed over the years. And since I'm 49 and been a petrol head and respected of fine automobiles all my life, that’s quite a few. The car was registered in Dec 1993, it was a special order in an RS colour, Amethyst with light grey leather and sports seats with Amethyst piping and carpets etc, RS steering wheel also in the colour (which Burriana doesn't like, but never mind!, its period). The car would have cost £60k plus when new, it sold to a Banker in Bath. H e only had it a year and it was bought with 11k miles buy the guy who lived in Cumbria and worked on Merseyside. Now this guy was a 'proper' owner, as he must have paid £50K + for the car and then proceeded to drive it 20 - 25K miles per year for the next 5 years. He had it serviced every 12k miles at the OPC Parker and Parker in Cumbria and OPC Road Range in Liverpool - it has 10 OPC stamps in the book up to its final one at 112K miles. It is believed that he then suffered ill health and the car was sold, to a mate of mine, at 118K miles who treated it like a classic and only used it in the summer and for medium to longish journeys.
I hope you are starting to see my point.
Like you I believe mileage to be important, though only as a guide to condition. I don’t want to own a low miles bad condition car and more than a high, miles bad condition car. But obviously a high mileage car that has done a lot of WORK will be more worn than a similarly driven low mileage car. This car however has done a lot of miles but appears to have done very little WORK, indeed it has probably done very few hours. At 70 mph the 75 mile journey every morning and night will have taken not much over an hour. An hour in London traffic can see you only about 5 miles further on than when you started with attendant wear an tear in clutch gearbox and engine.
The Internet is a wonderful thing, sometimes, but not when everybody reads the same 'problems' over and over again and they enter mythology: “964's are expensive to maintain because of: Top end rebuilds, oil leaks, dual mass flywheels, distributors ozone, clutches etc” : everybody likes to talk about these issues, I'm not sure how many understand them. Fact is that the oil leak and dual mass fly wheel issue of 964's was a problem sorted out in early production years. 1993 cars had different components and the problem did not arise. Disti’s need the mod to get rid of the ozone or the drive belt goes walkies. The OPCs knew this early on and most fixed it years ago. Clutches, all cars use clutches, they are consumables. Some people ride clutches and they get little wear out of them, I don’t and have never HAD to replace a clutch in any one my cars or bikes due to my usage. A car in a city with lots of clutch operations will wear a clutch out way quicker than an M way car. Top end rebuilds are required, on most cars of mileage. What are they? The valve guides get worn and the guides and probably valves need to be replaced. How do we know? The engine is smoky and uses oil, the cylinder leakdown test proves that the valves are not seating properly.
I’ve just had a top end job don eon out Toyota jeep, that needed a new cylinder head inc valves – whole assembly brand new and fitted - £750. Last year one of our other cars, a Citroen gti developed a smoky engine we diagnosed valve problems, turned out to be valve seals, £10 worth of components later, plus £150 in labour - job done. Nothing to be frightened about. But this car doesn’t need it. It has more than likely already been done at about 90K miles by the OPC. Suffice to say the leakdown test and compression test, not to mention the last service where the valve clearance were adjusted, show an engine in perfect order.
So in summary, this is a 1 foot car, with a traceable provenance with named, proper wedged up owners who provided it with a perfect service history, to sort out any problems throughout its life. The evidence is there because this car has been properly maintained by people who know what they are doing and no faults are apparent.
This is not a normal, run of the mill, 133k mile workhorse 20 footer, with tired body, interior and components that need attention immediately or even in the foreseeable apart from love care and attention. I hope you can now see why I didn’t put the mileage in the ad because I didn’t want people to make a snap judgment and be confused with any other rubbish that is on sale at this mileage.
I wanted people to get in touch and talk about the car and come and see it and satisfy themselves that it’s a genuine well looked after car that just happens to have it ‘hours of use’ reflected by a heavy mileage, but not in any other way.
Sorry about the diatribe!
Your thoughts…
cheers James
Thanks for all the replies.
First let me answer the question of why the mileage is not specifically, in the ad:
Most 133K mile cars I've seen over the years have been pretty tired, The bodywork is at least scuffed , probably dented and some signs of corrosion if not on top, certainly underneath are evident. The interiors are often pretty dogeared, a car of that mileage would normally have endured a countless number of door opening clamberings in and out and doors slammed shut again. The engine, particularly on a city car will have been started and stopped countless times, with all the wear inherent in the cold start process, many many times, the gearbox and clutch will have been well used - I couldn't guess at how many time I operate the clutch when stuck in London Traffic (no I don’t drive this car in the city... :-) ) but its going to be a lot.
I was looking at a site the other day where a guy was describing cars as 20 footers 10 footers and 1 footers. He meant that a car could be described as good from 20 feet but when you got to 10 feet you saw all its faults or a really good car you couldn’t see faults until 1 foot. This was an interesting idea I thought.
Now, this 964 of mine has lived a rather extraordinary life in comparison to the other high mileage cars I've viewed over the years. And since I'm 49 and been a petrol head and respected of fine automobiles all my life, that’s quite a few. The car was registered in Dec 1993, it was a special order in an RS colour, Amethyst with light grey leather and sports seats with Amethyst piping and carpets etc, RS steering wheel also in the colour (which Burriana doesn't like, but never mind!, its period). The car would have cost £60k plus when new, it sold to a Banker in Bath. H e only had it a year and it was bought with 11k miles buy the guy who lived in Cumbria and worked on Merseyside. Now this guy was a 'proper' owner, as he must have paid £50K + for the car and then proceeded to drive it 20 - 25K miles per year for the next 5 years. He had it serviced every 12k miles at the OPC Parker and Parker in Cumbria and OPC Road Range in Liverpool - it has 10 OPC stamps in the book up to its final one at 112K miles. It is believed that he then suffered ill health and the car was sold, to a mate of mine, at 118K miles who treated it like a classic and only used it in the summer and for medium to longish journeys.
I hope you are starting to see my point.
Like you I believe mileage to be important, though only as a guide to condition. I don’t want to own a low miles bad condition car and more than a high, miles bad condition car. But obviously a high mileage car that has done a lot of WORK will be more worn than a similarly driven low mileage car. This car however has done a lot of miles but appears to have done very little WORK, indeed it has probably done very few hours. At 70 mph the 75 mile journey every morning and night will have taken not much over an hour. An hour in London traffic can see you only about 5 miles further on than when you started with attendant wear an tear in clutch gearbox and engine.
The Internet is a wonderful thing, sometimes, but not when everybody reads the same 'problems' over and over again and they enter mythology: “964's are expensive to maintain because of: Top end rebuilds, oil leaks, dual mass flywheels, distributors ozone, clutches etc” : everybody likes to talk about these issues, I'm not sure how many understand them. Fact is that the oil leak and dual mass fly wheel issue of 964's was a problem sorted out in early production years. 1993 cars had different components and the problem did not arise. Disti’s need the mod to get rid of the ozone or the drive belt goes walkies. The OPCs knew this early on and most fixed it years ago. Clutches, all cars use clutches, they are consumables. Some people ride clutches and they get little wear out of them, I don’t and have never HAD to replace a clutch in any one my cars or bikes due to my usage. A car in a city with lots of clutch operations will wear a clutch out way quicker than an M way car. Top end rebuilds are required, on most cars of mileage. What are they? The valve guides get worn and the guides and probably valves need to be replaced. How do we know? The engine is smoky and uses oil, the cylinder leakdown test proves that the valves are not seating properly.
I’ve just had a top end job don eon out Toyota jeep, that needed a new cylinder head inc valves – whole assembly brand new and fitted - £750. Last year one of our other cars, a Citroen gti developed a smoky engine we diagnosed valve problems, turned out to be valve seals, £10 worth of components later, plus £150 in labour - job done. Nothing to be frightened about. But this car doesn’t need it. It has more than likely already been done at about 90K miles by the OPC. Suffice to say the leakdown test and compression test, not to mention the last service where the valve clearance were adjusted, show an engine in perfect order.
So in summary, this is a 1 foot car, with a traceable provenance with named, proper wedged up owners who provided it with a perfect service history, to sort out any problems throughout its life. The evidence is there because this car has been properly maintained by people who know what they are doing and no faults are apparent.
This is not a normal, run of the mill, 133k mile workhorse 20 footer, with tired body, interior and components that need attention immediately or even in the foreseeable apart from love care and attention. I hope you can now see why I didn’t put the mileage in the ad because I didn’t want people to make a snap judgment and be confused with any other rubbish that is on sale at this mileage.
I wanted people to get in touch and talk about the car and come and see it and satisfy themselves that it’s a genuine well looked after car that just happens to have it ‘hours of use’ reflected by a heavy mileage, but not in any other way.
Sorry about the diatribe!
Your thoughts…
cheers James
slider2 said:But if you don't declare the mileage, people entirely reasonably think you're trying to hide something. Mileage is a perfectly reasonable rule-of-thumb criterion when considering buying a second hand car, and no amount of ifs and buts is going to change that. Be up front about it and say it's motorway miles.
I hope you can now see why I didn’t put the mileage in the ad because I didn’t want people to make a snap judgment and be confused with any other rubbish that is on sale at this mileage.
Also, don't overhype Amethyst. It's not a particularly favoured colour, despite being quite pretty on some cars. It was never an RS signature colour like Maritime Blue, Rubystone Red or Mint Green (bold, solid colours), even if someone paid a fortune to have it as a special on a normal C2. Ironically, if the original owner had chosen silver or even Maritime Blue, I'm sure you could ask at least a grand more. Funny how tastes change... white used to be a kiss of death on Porsches in the 90s and now it's coming back in fashion majorly!
The thing is, as I said at the beginning, people ARE ringing up, AND sending emails, but as soon as I mention the mileage they are put off, Even before I try to build up a picture of the car's history around it.
I mean FFS, if you buy an older classic car you expect it to have had a wierd history, maybe a million miles - maybe stored in a barn - you buy it on condition and what you have to do to it to keep it running. Why not these cars? - or is it just the marketplace I'm trying to address? maybe pistonheads is populated by 'modern' car owners who are used to 5 years old and 60k miles and anything else is too weird to get their heads around...
Maybe I should try further afield.
I mean FFS, if you buy an older classic car you expect it to have had a wierd history, maybe a million miles - maybe stored in a barn - you buy it on condition and what you have to do to it to keep it running. Why not these cars? - or is it just the marketplace I'm trying to address? maybe pistonheads is populated by 'modern' car owners who are used to 5 years old and 60k miles and anything else is too weird to get their heads around...
Maybe I should try further afield.
slider2 said:
maybe pistonheads is populated by 'modern' car owners who are used to 5 years old and 60k miles and anything else is too weird to get their heads around...
Maybe I should try further afield.
Errrm, not really... as you can see we've got a couple of active 924 posters this week; hardly the domain of new car snobs! In fact most people on PH aren't mileagist at all, largely thanks to one Henry Firman Esq, who has been flying the flag for mileage non disclosure all his professional life, as far as I can tell.
However, you will have more success on a 964 specialist forum like www.porsche964.co.uk where they will know the importance of engine maintenance etc. and much less on autotrader where people are choosing a 911 vs a 350Z or M3 or whatever.
Why not just mention the mileage, lower the price by a grand and be much firmer on offers???
>> Edited by domster on Tuesday 11th April 12:49
And most people on P.Heads may be more tolerant of higher mileages as they know the cars ... however, they will also know what price to pay too. Swings and roundabouts.
Might be a daft idea, but why not get a compression test done and (assuming it's OK) publish the fact that it has a verified clean bill of health engine wise. Might put a few people's minds at rest.
just a thought.
Might be a daft idea, but why not get a compression test done and (assuming it's OK) publish the fact that it has a verified clean bill of health engine wise. Might put a few people's minds at rest.
just a thought.
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