FSH - am I being unrealistic ( still lookinf for my 993 S)
Discussion
Continuing will my own 993 S quest… I ‘m aware of the gospel version of FSH but interested to here wider views to see if I am being somewhat narrow in my own. By view of FSH is a OPC or noted independent stamp every 12 months or 12k miles as a minimum - ideally with supporting info and proof of coverage of larger services at 24 and 48k ( 2 & 4 years ) to be top draw FSH.
Seems so many cars just do not have this despite the ad’s that universally quoted FSH. So many promising cars seem to have significant gaps i.e. have gone 2 years plus but typically at low miles or 1 year with say relatively high miles e.g. 15k+ or combinations of both. I have seen a few full histories but these seem exceptional – most don’t have this or close to be honest. And I have been chasing the higher end cars not the unloved. As for FPSH that seems to mean little more than FSH with a few OPC stamps in the early years which of course they would have anyway… In my view it should be OPC all the way - no?
I know many veterans have told me this is totally OTT and this religious interpretation is not necessary or warranted and that I am missing many good cars because I have to date insisted on it. Views?
Any what difference in price been my view of FSH and something that has gaps as describe prior?
Seems so many cars just do not have this despite the ad’s that universally quoted FSH. So many promising cars seem to have significant gaps i.e. have gone 2 years plus but typically at low miles or 1 year with say relatively high miles e.g. 15k+ or combinations of both. I have seen a few full histories but these seem exceptional – most don’t have this or close to be honest. And I have been chasing the higher end cars not the unloved. As for FPSH that seems to mean little more than FSH with a few OPC stamps in the early years which of course they would have anyway… In my view it should be OPC all the way - no?
I know many veterans have told me this is totally OTT and this religious interpretation is not necessary or warranted and that I am missing many good cars because I have to date insisted on it. Views?
Any what difference in price been my view of FSH and something that has gaps as describe prior?
Does a stamped up service book count as a FSH or does one require all the receipts too!
Personally I wouldn't worry about having all the receipts, but I would want to know that the car has been serviced reasonable, and therefore has stamps.
Given that a lot of cars a second or third cars, I wouldn't worry if it wasn't done every year, but must be done at least every other. Others would almost certainly disagree though.
I guess as in most things the amount of paper work, what it says and the appearance of the car, gives you some idea of its quality.
As you state in another thread though, if the car has had many owners, whos to know how they treated the car, regardless of how well the current owner has looked after it.
Personally I wouldn't worry about having all the receipts, but I would want to know that the car has been serviced reasonable, and therefore has stamps.
Given that a lot of cars a second or third cars, I wouldn't worry if it wasn't done every year, but must be done at least every other. Others would almost certainly disagree though.
I guess as in most things the amount of paper work, what it says and the appearance of the car, gives you some idea of its quality.
As you state in another thread though, if the car has had many owners, whos to know how they treated the car, regardless of how well the current owner has looked after it.
The service history for my 993C4S:-
AUG 97 - Supplied new by OPC
JUL 98 - 6k miles at Shirleys
NOV 99 - 18k miles at OPC
APR 00 - 29k miles at OPC
JUN 02 - 32k miles at OPC
JUN 04 - 34k miles at Shirleys
SEP 05 - 36k miles at OPC
I consider the 12 month interval rather arbitrary (others will disagree) with mileage being more important to me personally. For my car there was no service in 01 or 03 but in both those two year intervals the car had done only 3K miles and 2K miles respectively. Why did I buy it? Because it was the colour and spec I wanted and the absolute best 993S around in terms of condition, and by some margin. That was more important.
AUG 97 - Supplied new by OPC
JUL 98 - 6k miles at Shirleys
NOV 99 - 18k miles at OPC
APR 00 - 29k miles at OPC
JUN 02 - 32k miles at OPC
JUN 04 - 34k miles at Shirleys
SEP 05 - 36k miles at OPC
I consider the 12 month interval rather arbitrary (others will disagree) with mileage being more important to me personally. For my car there was no service in 01 or 03 but in both those two year intervals the car had done only 3K miles and 2K miles respectively. Why did I buy it? Because it was the colour and spec I wanted and the absolute best 993S around in terms of condition, and by some margin. That was more important.
vinceg, i have found the same with looking for a boxster.Alot of adverts say FSh but when you question the service dates or intervals, They are not always in the guidelines of Porsche.
i have been looking for something with servicing every 12mths or 12k miles which ever comes sooner.
I think the thing is some boxsters have low miles therefore some owners think well i will just service it every 12k miles.
I would say intial services are OPC but there is nothing wrong with independant specialist( apart from service cost and probably better service)
I thought i was being to choosey and rejecting cars, may be i have been but told that service history is critical as they are high performance cars.
But ideally i want a car that i can buy with a Porsche warranty and porsche look for a car with FSH before they put warranty on car,but it has too have a 111 point check.
i have been looking for something with servicing every 12mths or 12k miles which ever comes sooner.
I think the thing is some boxsters have low miles therefore some owners think well i will just service it every 12k miles.
I would say intial services are OPC but there is nothing wrong with independant specialist( apart from service cost and probably better service)
I thought i was being to choosey and rejecting cars, may be i have been but told that service history is critical as they are high performance cars.
But ideally i want a car that i can buy with a Porsche warranty and porsche look for a car with FSH before they put warranty on car,but it has too have a 111 point check.
a good service history is important but porsche independants with a good name in my book are just as acceptable. in my view some of the independants will do a better job than some opc's.
service history may not tell you the whole story. find a car you want and arrange for it to be inspected by a specialist. service history won't tell you if it has been pranged and not repaired properly. and by the way get the car inspected before you buy it, you'll be amazed at how many people arrange for an inspection after they have bought their new pride and joy. a mate bought a very low mileage maritime blue 3.6 turbo that looked mint inside and out with full porsche sevice history. when it was put on a ramp the underside of the engine was very rusty, needed new air injection pipes and exhaust etc, etc. looked like it had been parked on damp grass for half of its life.
happy hunting.
service history may not tell you the whole story. find a car you want and arrange for it to be inspected by a specialist. service history won't tell you if it has been pranged and not repaired properly. and by the way get the car inspected before you buy it, you'll be amazed at how many people arrange for an inspection after they have bought their new pride and joy. a mate bought a very low mileage maritime blue 3.6 turbo that looked mint inside and out with full porsche sevice history. when it was put on a ramp the underside of the engine was very rusty, needed new air injection pipes and exhaust etc, etc. looked like it had been parked on damp grass for half of its life.
happy hunting.
Full Service History is just that... Full Service History... i.e. - as per the manufacturers schedule!
If it's not stamped as required (including brake fluid/spark plug stamps) then it's not a FSH.
Personally, I wouldn't touch a car that's not been serviced as per the manufacturers recommendation.
I was in the market for a Z3 M Coupe a couple of years ago and I got really p*ssed off with all the adverts for low-milers that said FSH, but when it came to the crunch, they'd only been serviced by 'miles' and no regard was given to 'time'. Jeez, some 6-7 year old cars had only been serviced twice in their lifetime because they'd only covered 20k! Engines don't like 3 year old oil...
If it's not stamped as required (including brake fluid/spark plug stamps) then it's not a FSH.
Personally, I wouldn't touch a car that's not been serviced as per the manufacturers recommendation.
I was in the market for a Z3 M Coupe a couple of years ago and I got really p*ssed off with all the adverts for low-milers that said FSH, but when it came to the crunch, they'd only been serviced by 'miles' and no regard was given to 'time'. Jeez, some 6-7 year old cars had only been serviced twice in their lifetime because they'd only covered 20k! Engines don't like 3 year old oil...
POORCARDEALER said:Indeed.
Ever been to Germany and seen their views on FSH........they dont seem to give a hoot, as long as the car is CURRENTLY A1, lack of early service history doesnt seem to bother them
Considering the damage and oversights that OPCs have committed on my motors, I'm not sure that a FPSH shouldn't be cause for a discount.
If you like cars, go by the actual machine.
If you like books, go to the library.
MunkeeMan said:
Full Service History is just that... Full Service History... i.e. - as per the manufacturers schedule!
If it's not stamped as required (including brake fluid/spark plug stamps) then it's not a FSH.
Just as an aside, I don't think you want to see the stamps alone. The invoices, showing what work was done, and indeed if *any* work was done (obviously not mentioning a dealer who will dish out stamps for a drink or two) are always worth far more IMHO. A stamped service book with no invoices always looks very suspicious to me.
fergus, know that dealers could dish stamps out for a deal or too, but would they also go to the extent of having a put a written record on there computer system, surely not as when i go looking at cars looking at service book then check with dealer service history.
i have been told its strange how porsche stamps go missing
i have been told its strange how porsche stamps go missing
OPC services aren't what they seem to be. When I had my Boxster S (from new), The OPC wouldn't change the oil every 12 months because I did low mileage. That is the manufacturers recommended approach. Therefore, the car had no oil change for 2 years as recommended by Porsche.
My 993 turbo didn'tcome with any receipts and even had a replacement service book. I had the car inspected and apart from a few small issues (which were fixed prior to me buying the car) the car was good.
If a car comes with loads of receipts for expensive work, does that make it a good car? In my opinion not. It's probably a lemon that will need load more exepensive work. Why should the expensive receipts stop appearing as soon as you by the car?
Get the car inspected and go on the condition of the car, not a bunch or paperwork.
My 993 turbo didn'tcome with any receipts and even had a replacement service book. I had the car inspected and apart from a few small issues (which were fixed prior to me buying the car) the car was good.
If a car comes with loads of receipts for expensive work, does that make it a good car? In my opinion not. It's probably a lemon that will need load more exepensive work. Why should the expensive receipts stop appearing as soon as you by the car?
Get the car inspected and go on the condition of the car, not a bunch or paperwork.
Just suppose for a moment you were wealthy enough to go out and buy a Porsche. You didn`t scour the classified ads for a bargain you just looked for a showroom that had a sliding door and a decent coffee machine then weighed the suit in for a brand new car.
When it came time for service you had your secretary book it in for you with the instruction to leave no stone un-turned. They didn`t and £3,174 later the car was delivered back. The accountants picked up the tab. Every now and again you would pop back to the sliding door and the coffee machine for a bit of a natter, to pop a couple of pages worth of the selection catalogue on the company credit card and buy the lad one of those radio controlled cayennes with the built in camera.
So it went on for 3 or 4 years until one Saturday you saw a lovely looking car which the suit told you was called a GT2. You bought it and traded in the old car, having had the car valeted, (on the company account) first.
I would love to own that car. Bills ? are you taking the piss. The dude took a £34k bath on the car, spent £8,617 on servicing. £3,143 on bits from the selection catalogue and then another £2,710 when he picked up the GT2. But no, he wasn`t too bothered about spending an evening making up a file to remind himself how much of his companies money he had just spunked, ie in an informally couragous manner away on his favourite toy.
There was another bloke who resented every penny he spent on the car so much he kept all the receipts. He maintained the car on a strictly reactive basis. Yes there was a receipt for the clutch but he only changed it because the smoke from all the slipping was making him cough. The brakes had to be done because the iron filings from the pad backings rubbing against the discs were damaging his alloy wheels and the wire from the tyre banding sparked on the tarmac at night drew attention from the local constabulary necessitating a trip to Kwik Fit, again receipt retained. There was even a receipt from the time he treated the car to a magic christmas tree air freshener at Halfords one Saturday.
Use common sense. Look round the car. If the brake discs are badly scored, corroded, thin or the car surges under braking then you need to attend to them regardless of when the history says they were changed. Similarly if there isn`t a bill for brakes but the discs are brand new then don`t rush out and change them just yet.
If you have a car sitting in your garage and it only comes out 3 times one year then don`t penalise the chap too hard if he leaves it a little longer between services. As for purely going on mileage well that`s just as silly otherwise London cars would only be serviced the equivalent of every 6 years or 72k miles !
I once had a bloke refuse to come and look at a Ferrari we had because we didnat have all the old tax discs !!
Use your bonce and treat each car with common sense. A replacement book supplied and stamped by the main dealers because it was genuinely lost somewhere along the way is a long way from one filled up using a John Bull printing set in someone`s kitchen. A good specialist should be able to spot the difference and help you spot the problem cars, although a car we recently rejected on the basis of a fraudulent history book is currently residing on one forcourt at the moment
I`m not suggesting we all rush out and buy cars with no history, far from it in fact merely offering up another viewpoint to ponder over.
Henry
When it came time for service you had your secretary book it in for you with the instruction to leave no stone un-turned. They didn`t and £3,174 later the car was delivered back. The accountants picked up the tab. Every now and again you would pop back to the sliding door and the coffee machine for a bit of a natter, to pop a couple of pages worth of the selection catalogue on the company credit card and buy the lad one of those radio controlled cayennes with the built in camera.
So it went on for 3 or 4 years until one Saturday you saw a lovely looking car which the suit told you was called a GT2. You bought it and traded in the old car, having had the car valeted, (on the company account) first.
I would love to own that car. Bills ? are you taking the piss. The dude took a £34k bath on the car, spent £8,617 on servicing. £3,143 on bits from the selection catalogue and then another £2,710 when he picked up the GT2. But no, he wasn`t too bothered about spending an evening making up a file to remind himself how much of his companies money he had just spunked, ie in an informally couragous manner away on his favourite toy.
There was another bloke who resented every penny he spent on the car so much he kept all the receipts. He maintained the car on a strictly reactive basis. Yes there was a receipt for the clutch but he only changed it because the smoke from all the slipping was making him cough. The brakes had to be done because the iron filings from the pad backings rubbing against the discs were damaging his alloy wheels and the wire from the tyre banding sparked on the tarmac at night drew attention from the local constabulary necessitating a trip to Kwik Fit, again receipt retained. There was even a receipt from the time he treated the car to a magic christmas tree air freshener at Halfords one Saturday.
Use common sense. Look round the car. If the brake discs are badly scored, corroded, thin or the car surges under braking then you need to attend to them regardless of when the history says they were changed. Similarly if there isn`t a bill for brakes but the discs are brand new then don`t rush out and change them just yet.
If you have a car sitting in your garage and it only comes out 3 times one year then don`t penalise the chap too hard if he leaves it a little longer between services. As for purely going on mileage well that`s just as silly otherwise London cars would only be serviced the equivalent of every 6 years or 72k miles !
I once had a bloke refuse to come and look at a Ferrari we had because we didnat have all the old tax discs !!
Use your bonce and treat each car with common sense. A replacement book supplied and stamped by the main dealers because it was genuinely lost somewhere along the way is a long way from one filled up using a John Bull printing set in someone`s kitchen. A good specialist should be able to spot the difference and help you spot the problem cars, although a car we recently rejected on the basis of a fraudulent history book is currently residing on one forcourt at the moment
I`m not suggesting we all rush out and buy cars with no history, far from it in fact merely offering up another viewpoint to ponder over.
Henry
lots of good advice re. receipts and records (although I am one of those who can hand over a file with all my just because my cars are run privately and if I was a buyer I would appreicate it)
to your initial point I agree:
FPSH = every service done at OPC according to the schedule (give or take a few months)
FSH = every service done according to the schedule (give or take a few months)
to your initial point I agree:
FPSH = every service done at OPC according to the schedule (give or take a few months)
FSH = every service done according to the schedule (give or take a few months)
A little something we confiscated a while back to make sure someone didn`t catch a cold thinking the car had service history. And no, I suspect the stamps are not those of the main dealers, nore do I have reason to suspect any of the other garages actually exist !
Enjoy
Henry
>> Edited by henry-f on Wednesday 19th April 10:12
Enjoy
Henry
>> Edited by henry-f on Wednesday 19th April 10:12
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