PSM or TC or Nothing ?
Discussion
I'm aware that PSM has been discussed pretty heavily before, but I'm bringing the topic up again.
As some of you know, I'm looking at the 996 as a serious option at some point in the coming months. (Ideally in my sweaty mitts for Folembray in May)
So far, I've driven 1 996 with no T/C or PSM on frosty roads for 30 minnutes and felt pretty happy and safe behind the wheel. I'm lining up test drives in other cars with a view to buy including some PSM equipped ones.
However PSM obviously isn't something you should be invoking on a test drive, so it's unlikely in my quest that I'll actually witness a demonstration of the system, this is where your opinions come in.
I figure that I'd like to go for a C2 so I keep to the pure 911 ideal, but I'm not the worlds greatest sideways hero yet(!) so feel I could do with the safety net.
My question is :
How different is the standard Traction Control fitted to earlier 996's and the PSM system fitted to the c4 / C2 as an option. Is the TC adequate to keep an unruly back end in line, or is PSM the only real option?
As some of you know, I'm looking at the 996 as a serious option at some point in the coming months. (Ideally in my sweaty mitts for Folembray in May)
So far, I've driven 1 996 with no T/C or PSM on frosty roads for 30 minnutes and felt pretty happy and safe behind the wheel. I'm lining up test drives in other cars with a view to buy including some PSM equipped ones.
However PSM obviously isn't something you should be invoking on a test drive, so it's unlikely in my quest that I'll actually witness a demonstration of the system, this is where your opinions come in.
I figure that I'd like to go for a C2 so I keep to the pure 911 ideal, but I'm not the worlds greatest sideways hero yet(!) so feel I could do with the safety net.
My question is :
How different is the standard Traction Control fitted to earlier 996's and the PSM system fitted to the c4 / C2 as an option. Is the TC adequate to keep an unruly back end in line, or is PSM the only real option?
Hi Mr Tony....Prior to purchasing my 02 C2..I had driven 996 C2 & 4 with psm.As they were not my car I had not got the system to cut in.
The PSM I know is not a traction control,it is linked to the the braking system & throttle (fly by wire).
It seems to work on a gyroscope principal in that if the car moves violently outside the intended direction of steering ,it will brake opposing diagonal wheels & electroically cut the throttle if required.
It is not a traction control as in pulling away,useful in the snow etc...you can still get the rears to light up & back to move out a little with it engaged but not too much,with it engaged.
The C4 which appeared at start of '99 had this as std and has another brain which varies the front / rear drive bias in conjunction.
I think PSM became an option on C2 once it arrived with C4.I may be wrong but I didn't think there was a traction control option available.
I ordered PSM on my car as I thought it may help it's resale value after my previous sports orientated 911 I was not over keen myself.I can honestly say it is amazing once you get to understand it in practice and personally would not buy a 996 without it.
The PSM I know is not a traction control,it is linked to the the braking system & throttle (fly by wire).
It seems to work on a gyroscope principal in that if the car moves violently outside the intended direction of steering ,it will brake opposing diagonal wheels & electroically cut the throttle if required.
It is not a traction control as in pulling away,useful in the snow etc...you can still get the rears to light up & back to move out a little with it engaged but not too much,with it engaged.
The C4 which appeared at start of '99 had this as std and has another brain which varies the front / rear drive bias in conjunction.
I think PSM became an option on C2 once it arrived with C4.I may be wrong but I didn't think there was a traction control option available.
I ordered PSM on my car as I thought it may help it's resale value after my previous sports orientated 911 I was not over keen myself.I can honestly say it is amazing once you get to understand it in practice and personally would not buy a 996 without it.
Steve / Tony,,,,,i have had hairier rwd cars for a while,my old 911 had no assistance on it at all other than a servo.I did many track days in it including a few crazy trips to the ring.The 996 has never felt tricky to drive as it was designed that way.
I think the 996 doesn't cause a problem in the handling dept,until it does it may be big.Modern cars such as these rely on big tyres,when they go they are very hard to catch.I would drift my old car around all over the place,this car just holds.
I think you have got to be a very good driver to exploit a 996 on the track without driver aids & to push it hard on the road without would be madness.
I think it is for this reason & not just the turbos that the 996TT is probably the fastest real world car there is.That includes a GT2 on the track without it's aids unless it is being driven by a demi god of a driver.
I think the 996 doesn't cause a problem in the handling dept,until it does it may be big.Modern cars such as these rely on big tyres,when they go they are very hard to catch.I would drift my old car around all over the place,this car just holds.
I think you have got to be a very good driver to exploit a 996 on the track without driver aids & to push it hard on the road without would be madness.
I think it is for this reason & not just the turbos that the 996TT is probably the fastest real world car there is.That includes a GT2 on the track without it's aids unless it is being driven by a demi god of a driver.
I found the PSM very unobtrusive, have found it gently comes in after you have goon a bit too far for your own liking (assuming your not trying).
Had a good trackday in the dry where i went in too fast to a bend, kept a constant power and stearing but was too fast, after the car started to gently slide the psm gently tugged the wheels around onto the line where I did not go off.
The off would not have been too hard or bad but off i would have gone. ie beyond my skill, so yes i was pleased it was able to brake the front/rear left/right wheels independantly of each other which worked lovely.
If you are too far gone then nothing will stop you but from what I understand its there as a 2nd chance. not guranteed but a 2nd chance nonetheless.
It is 100% better than the my ex- M5 BMW DSC system as that cut in before you had any fun, but the PSM will let it slide a bit and get a grin, and as soon as you go from a grin to a grimice PSM helps out.
:-) to :-( = PSM
very good system for the road.
Had a good trackday in the dry where i went in too fast to a bend, kept a constant power and stearing but was too fast, after the car started to gently slide the psm gently tugged the wheels around onto the line where I did not go off.
The off would not have been too hard or bad but off i would have gone. ie beyond my skill, so yes i was pleased it was able to brake the front/rear left/right wheels independantly of each other which worked lovely.
If you are too far gone then nothing will stop you but from what I understand its there as a 2nd chance. not guranteed but a 2nd chance nonetheless.
It is 100% better than the my ex- M5 BMW DSC system as that cut in before you had any fun, but the PSM will let it slide a bit and get a grin, and as soon as you go from a grin to a grimice PSM helps out.
:-) to :-( = PSM
very good system for the road.
interesting stuff guys.
On a short run I found the 996 without TC/PSM fine as you say steve, it's a great car and really does feel incredibly sorted.
In the long run however for me not having a wealth of 911 experience to draw on I figure there may be times when I'd be glad to have it.
PSM sounds better than T/C given your explanation clubsport, so I guess if I'll go for a car with it fitted, I can always turn it off on the track anyway.
Anyone else had experience of driving PSM / TC 996's?
On a short run I found the 996 without TC/PSM fine as you say steve, it's a great car and really does feel incredibly sorted.
In the long run however for me not having a wealth of 911 experience to draw on I figure there may be times when I'd be glad to have it.
PSM sounds better than T/C given your explanation clubsport, so I guess if I'll go for a car with it fitted, I can always turn it off on the track anyway.
Anyone else had experience of driving PSM / TC 996's?
I remeber when C4 came out in start of '99 the car magz were full of this new PSM system & a mate got his car with it in March '99..So there were a few early '99 S plate cars with it.I think it became an option at this time.Mr Tony mentioned a traction control system which I was not aware of.As stated PSM is not a traction control system as such.So to a certain extent I guess it is budget orientated Steve.
I would be interested in finding out a bit more about this pre '99 T/C system as it sounds like it could get in the way a little,spoiling rather than adding to a good car.
I would be interested in finding out a bit more about this pre '99 T/C system as it sounds like it could get in the way a little,spoiling rather than adding to a good car.
Re Traction control, it is listed as present on a couple of cars in the spec sheets from the OPC I visited - specifically a 98 C2 Tiptronic.
I thought (though doubtless you knowledgeable lot will correct me
) that PSM arrived with the C4 in 1999 (as standard) and as a cost option on the C2. From you comments above (thanks guys) I think personally I'd benefit from having the PSM safety net so for me it's now a *must have* on my checklist.
At this rate 98/99 cars could have some kind of optional T/C fitted (related to boxster system?), I guess it's not going to be as sophisticated as PSM though. Just for the record anyone out there actually got / driven a 996 with this fitted?
I thought (though doubtless you knowledgeable lot will correct me
) that PSM arrived with the C4 in 1999 (as standard) and as a cost option on the C2. From you comments above (thanks guys) I think personally I'd benefit from having the PSM safety net so for me it's now a *must have* on my checklist. At this rate 98/99 cars could have some kind of optional T/C fitted (related to boxster system?), I guess it's not going to be as sophisticated as PSM though. Just for the record anyone out there actually got / driven a 996 with this fitted?
Howdy, my 98 C2s had T/C, I now have a 02 Cab without PSM and a TT that has it. Personally, I prefer no PSM. The cars have such high levels of grip, you must really brake the law to get the rear end to come around. In heavy rain, dry, whatever, I have not had a problem. Lost it once on the track and spun but it was my mistake, I don't know of PSM could have saved me anyway...
Good luck.
Roy
Good luck.
Roy
As a footnote,I have heard of an incident on a trackday that BWM's version of PSM was the cause of an accident resulting in a almost new M3 being written off.What happened was that there was a bump on the track prior to a bend,the car became airborne,the electronis cut the engine so that when the car landed there was no power.It skidded into a gravel trap and barrel rolled.The driver reckoned that if he had had power he could have got round the corner.
Food for thought err?
Steve
Food for thought err?
Steve
Steve, I assume from that you cannot turn the Bm system off for track days? I would imagine must 996 drivers would turn theirs off in dry conditions on the track.
The M3 seems to have very sophisticated rear axle / traction control.The last time I was at the Ring in my old 911 I was amazed at the speeds the E46 was carrying through the bends.From your post it may be too clever for it's own good?
The M3 seems to have very sophisticated rear axle / traction control.The last time I was at the Ring in my old 911 I was amazed at the speeds the E46 was carrying through the bends.From your post it may be too clever for it's own good?
There was a previous system to PSM which was just Traction Control.
As stated by clubsport PSM is much more than a Traction Control system - although as well as providing opposite wheel braking (electronic equivalent of opposite lock) it can adjust the throttle too. For instance when accelerating from a standstill onto a roundabout in nasty conditions PSM can provide assistance with getting the revs right - "launch control" as it were.
Its a fine system and has even more scope for helping on the 4WD cars where it can distribute power to all four wheels.
You can switch it off for Track Days. Myself - I have never felt the need.
I strongly advise getting it - if ordering a new car or selecting from a choice of cars some of which have the option.
If the one you really, really want doesn't have it - well its up to you. You may never need it.
But I know the bloke who ordered leather seats on his new Jag and didn't get ABS/Traction (then an option). Wrote it off on the A12 weeks later. Laugh.......I nearly did.
As stated by clubsport PSM is much more than a Traction Control system - although as well as providing opposite wheel braking (electronic equivalent of opposite lock) it can adjust the throttle too. For instance when accelerating from a standstill onto a roundabout in nasty conditions PSM can provide assistance with getting the revs right - "launch control" as it were.
Its a fine system and has even more scope for helping on the 4WD cars where it can distribute power to all four wheels.
You can switch it off for Track Days. Myself - I have never felt the need.
I strongly advise getting it - if ordering a new car or selecting from a choice of cars some of which have the option.
If the one you really, really want doesn't have it - well its up to you. You may never need it.
But I know the bloke who ordered leather seats on his new Jag and didn't get ABS/Traction (then an option). Wrote it off on the A12 weeks later. Laugh.......I nearly did.
I heard a story at the weekend from an advanced driving instructor... he told me that he had to give skid control training to a bloke who wrote off an XK8.
Bloke took car back to garage and complained that PSM not working.
Garage tested it. PSM was fine.
Instructor found out that blokey had been getting into car and 'switching on' PSM each time, so the little light came on
He's actually been *disabling* it, because the nonce hadn't read his manual properly. He didn't even believe the instructor when it was pointed out, so the instructor had to do some extreme manoeuvres with PSM light on and off to prove it...
Maybe the should put 'PSM' with a line through it, instead of just writing PSM on the button?
Bloke took car back to garage and complained that PSM not working.
Garage tested it. PSM was fine.
Instructor found out that blokey had been getting into car and 'switching on' PSM each time, so the little light came on
He's actually been *disabling* it, because the nonce hadn't read his manual properly. He didn't even believe the instructor when it was pointed out, so the instructor had to do some extreme manoeuvres with PSM light on and off to prove it...
Maybe the should put 'PSM' with a line through it, instead of just writing PSM on the button?
Wow, Dom. Proof positive in the old computing adage - RTFM!
I did know a bloke who swore that he was switching on Traction Control in his Omega - until I pointed out he was actually switching it OFF. Quelle Plonqeur Enorme.
Yep - in general if you have these systems they are on by default and only when OFF does a "warning" light show. I think its the theory that the light means - "You're on yer own, pal. Don't blame me if it all goes pear shaped."
I did know a bloke who swore that he was switching on Traction Control in his Omega - until I pointed out he was actually switching it OFF. Quelle Plonqeur Enorme.
Yep - in general if you have these systems they are on by default and only when OFF does a "warning" light show. I think its the theory that the light means - "You're on yer own, pal. Don't blame me if it all goes pear shaped."
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