USED CAR WARRANTIES
Discussion
Dear readers
I've just been sent a link to a heated debate regarding warranties this week and an unlucky owner whos gengine has gone pop.
I will firstly state that I am a porsche specialist and 911uk forum users will hopefully agree that I do not use the forums for free advertising, and i hope i dont upset any members here.
heres 1 or 2 points i would of raised if the post wasnt closed
1 The Porsche warranty is no longer a car care plan warranty in a different brochure, it used to be, but in july 2004 it became a Porsche warranty controlled by Porsche Gb underwritten by a german insurance co
2 As I have said many times to many people on the 911 uk forum, my advice to any one before they buy a Porsche would be to have it inspected by someone who knows what theyre looking at,I.E NOT THE AA OR RAC, BUT a Porsche main dealer, peter morgan, Tognola, JAZ, Etc
If your buying a water cooled car, you may as well get it done by an Porsche OPC as if it passes you can buy a Porsche warranty for £725,its the same warranty you'd get if you bought the car from a main dealer and you can extend it annually for £725, transfer it to the next owner if you sell it privately. you can extend the warranty up to when the car is 10 years old or 125000 miles,I.E The last day you can renew or put a warranty on a car is its 9th birthday. If the car fails the inspection then you have the ammunition to negotiate the price ans the vendor can hardly argue with an OPC
I did have a customer who bought a 99T 25,000 mile carrera 4, FPSH, 2 owners, 3 weeks later 6th gear vanished, he phone me on a saturday, Lovetts collected the car on monday, he rang on wednesday for the diagnosis to be told that a new gearbox would be with them on friday and he could collect the car on saturday, he asked what he had to do to claim under the warranty to be told they had sorted it all out allready
Finally the wording on my website has recently been changed due to the FSA and Porsche GB
I used to include a Porsche warranty in the price with all my cars and still do , but i cannot give away a warranty for free as it is against FSA( Financial services Authority)regulatons unless i register with them £1500 to join £700 a year and i take exams as an insurance broker, even if i do Porsche will not sell me the policy, they will only sell it to the end user, hence why my website is now worded to encourage customers to have the warranty and to ask me to reduce my price to cover it. I believe that 1or 2 general car dealers also put porsche warranties on their cars, but theres not many
For the record I do have all my cars even 19 year old 944's main dealer serviced, not the best way to make money, but a main dealer wont lie for me, they work to Porsches guidelines, but with no disrepect to independants, i ask my self, if an independant services a car dealers car, how many car dealers would want the bare minimum done just to get a stamp in the book. i also have my cars serviced as soon as i buy them so i can fax email the invoie to the customerand the customer can phone the OPC to ensure there were no comments on the job sheet, but as i have a 111 point check done at the same time, they qualify for the Porsche Warranty.
The reason i took this approach when i decided purely to sell Porsche was i had read so many stories about engine failure i could not see car care plan type warranties paying out £10,000 for a new engine, and i cannot see how to factor into a business plan £10K warranty claims, if i 'give ' my customers the same warranty as if they had bought the car from a porsche main dealer i dont know what more i can do to protect them.
I would strongly recommend any Porsche buyer to go down this route whether you buy a car from me or not
Good luck to you all
Mark Pearce
www.stirlings.co.uk
>> Edited by stirlings on Sunday 16th April 09:49
I've just been sent a link to a heated debate regarding warranties this week and an unlucky owner whos gengine has gone pop.
I will firstly state that I am a porsche specialist and 911uk forum users will hopefully agree that I do not use the forums for free advertising, and i hope i dont upset any members here.
heres 1 or 2 points i would of raised if the post wasnt closed
1 The Porsche warranty is no longer a car care plan warranty in a different brochure, it used to be, but in july 2004 it became a Porsche warranty controlled by Porsche Gb underwritten by a german insurance co
2 As I have said many times to many people on the 911 uk forum, my advice to any one before they buy a Porsche would be to have it inspected by someone who knows what theyre looking at,I.E NOT THE AA OR RAC, BUT a Porsche main dealer, peter morgan, Tognola, JAZ, Etc
If your buying a water cooled car, you may as well get it done by an Porsche OPC as if it passes you can buy a Porsche warranty for £725,its the same warranty you'd get if you bought the car from a main dealer and you can extend it annually for £725, transfer it to the next owner if you sell it privately. you can extend the warranty up to when the car is 10 years old or 125000 miles,I.E The last day you can renew or put a warranty on a car is its 9th birthday. If the car fails the inspection then you have the ammunition to negotiate the price ans the vendor can hardly argue with an OPC
I did have a customer who bought a 99T 25,000 mile carrera 4, FPSH, 2 owners, 3 weeks later 6th gear vanished, he phone me on a saturday, Lovetts collected the car on monday, he rang on wednesday for the diagnosis to be told that a new gearbox would be with them on friday and he could collect the car on saturday, he asked what he had to do to claim under the warranty to be told they had sorted it all out allready
Finally the wording on my website has recently been changed due to the FSA and Porsche GB
I used to include a Porsche warranty in the price with all my cars and still do , but i cannot give away a warranty for free as it is against FSA( Financial services Authority)regulatons unless i register with them £1500 to join £700 a year and i take exams as an insurance broker, even if i do Porsche will not sell me the policy, they will only sell it to the end user, hence why my website is now worded to encourage customers to have the warranty and to ask me to reduce my price to cover it. I believe that 1or 2 general car dealers also put porsche warranties on their cars, but theres not many
For the record I do have all my cars even 19 year old 944's main dealer serviced, not the best way to make money, but a main dealer wont lie for me, they work to Porsches guidelines, but with no disrepect to independants, i ask my self, if an independant services a car dealers car, how many car dealers would want the bare minimum done just to get a stamp in the book. i also have my cars serviced as soon as i buy them so i can fax email the invoie to the customerand the customer can phone the OPC to ensure there were no comments on the job sheet, but as i have a 111 point check done at the same time, they qualify for the Porsche Warranty.
The reason i took this approach when i decided purely to sell Porsche was i had read so many stories about engine failure i could not see car care plan type warranties paying out £10,000 for a new engine, and i cannot see how to factor into a business plan £10K warranty claims, if i 'give ' my customers the same warranty as if they had bought the car from a porsche main dealer i dont know what more i can do to protect them.
I would strongly recommend any Porsche buyer to go down this route whether you buy a car from me or not
Good luck to you all
Mark Pearce
www.stirlings.co.uk
>> Edited by stirlings on Sunday 16th April 09:49
Lets be honest,the price some indis charge for their cars it should be a given,and most people know that the after market porsche warranties are'nt worth the paper they are written on.
Lots people dont want to pay porsche for their glitzy showrooms and for me i cant think of a better way for the serious independent dealer to win the trust and peace of mind by making this practice standard.Ok even the porsche warranty is'nt perfect but it should avoid alot of the chew on that goes with the after market one offered by most garages.
At the end of the day its should be more of a safe guard for the dealer and the customer.
Lots people dont want to pay porsche for their glitzy showrooms and for me i cant think of a better way for the serious independent dealer to win the trust and peace of mind by making this practice standard.Ok even the porsche warranty is'nt perfect but it should avoid alot of the chew on that goes with the after market one offered by most garages.
At the end of the day its should be more of a safe guard for the dealer and the customer.
i dont know what more i can do to protect my customers than a Porsche warranty
I think you guys are buying a dream not a 6 year old car
your dream doesnt include stone chips, wheel scuffs etc,
i try and let you live that dream by making the cars as perfect as i can and giving you the same level of protection in terms of pre sales prep and after sales warranty as if you had bought the car from a main dealer
if it sounds like bull shit
ask my customers
>> Edited by stirlings on Monday 17th April 04:56
I think you guys are buying a dream not a 6 year old car
your dream doesnt include stone chips, wheel scuffs etc,
i try and let you live that dream by making the cars as perfect as i can and giving you the same level of protection in terms of pre sales prep and after sales warranty as if you had bought the car from a main dealer
if it sounds like bull shit
ask my customers
>> Edited by stirlings on Monday 17th April 04:56
I don't think there is anymore a good dealer can do.
I'm looking for a 2003 C4S or C2.... and the big difference I see that a good dealer will pre-sale prepare the car i.e. put new pads/disc, tyres, respray nose cone etc etc if required. You also have the knowledge that a decent dealer will also have completed an inspection of their own, which in some cases far exceed that of the OPC 111 pt check - as these guys do not have the benefit of the mighty Porsche branding and must try all that much harder...
It's all down to how much you know, how much time you have, how much risk you want to enter into in whether you want a private or dealer purchase i.e buy what you see or get one with all the bits sorted like new and have a measure of protection.
I don't know enough about cars and zero on engines, so if the private sale has no warranty (I like to sleep at night) and the brakes, tyres etc. even look close to replacement, or if the car was not serviced yesterday...... I have to add that up and going to a dealer who does the necessaries, gets an OPC inspection which classifies the car for OPC warranty will always have my vote.
Don't get me wrong I will always go for the good deal and always look to that great private sale (with all the necessaries) over a dealer, but sometime time and circumstance don't allow that.
I also know that nothings free in this world and dealers do have to make profit somewhere, although not too much
JK
I'm looking for a 2003 C4S or C2.... and the big difference I see that a good dealer will pre-sale prepare the car i.e. put new pads/disc, tyres, respray nose cone etc etc if required. You also have the knowledge that a decent dealer will also have completed an inspection of their own, which in some cases far exceed that of the OPC 111 pt check - as these guys do not have the benefit of the mighty Porsche branding and must try all that much harder...
It's all down to how much you know, how much time you have, how much risk you want to enter into in whether you want a private or dealer purchase i.e buy what you see or get one with all the bits sorted like new and have a measure of protection.
I don't know enough about cars and zero on engines, so if the private sale has no warranty (I like to sleep at night) and the brakes, tyres etc. even look close to replacement, or if the car was not serviced yesterday...... I have to add that up and going to a dealer who does the necessaries, gets an OPC inspection which classifies the car for OPC warranty will always have my vote.
Don't get me wrong I will always go for the good deal and always look to that great private sale (with all the necessaries) over a dealer, but sometime time and circumstance don't allow that.
I also know that nothings free in this world and dealers do have to make profit somewhere, although not too much
JK
POORCARDEALER said:
Great idea but it obviously has to be reflected in asking price of vehicle as ultimatly the customer pays for it.
But surely that applies to any warranty product, whether one purchased by the dealer from the RAC et al, one purchased through an OPC as Stirling "arranges", one included with the car bought from an OPC or the warranty from a dealer who choses to self-warranty? Warranties aren't free; they cost money. Even for a new car the manufacturer factors in the predcited rate of repairs into the selling price equation.
There is another way. Have the car serviced properly by a good garage, (I do have issues with some of the main dealers including the one that recently left the plug off the cooling fan on a 993 after a wiring loom replacement (under warranty hence the use of a m/d). They left the plug off because the fan ran all the time. The fan ran all the time because they pluged the vacuum switch plug onto the engine temp sensor rather than the engine temp plug. No mention was made that the fan was running on when the car was collected from them, the mistake was discovered purely by chance by the indy to whom the car was delivered after the work). Once the car has been serviced properly stand to the the car yourself. If anything goes wrong or wears out within the guarantee period then pay for it to be corrected. That`s what we do with all our retail cars. We are after all supposed to be car dealers and it is ultimately our job to correct faults, not some third party. A warranty should be an insurance available once the dealers guarantee has run out. If someone`s gearbox broke after 3 weeks then the onus in on the supplying garage to correct it not a third party, (and that is not intended as a dig at Stirlings - merely using the example they mention - presumably the customer is a happy bunny, not intent on toppling their empire and all is cool).
I know of a company that used to make a very good living out of putting cars into the m/d for a quick once over prior to sale. The m/d stamped the book, found a couple of odds and sods to correct and did them. The car then sold on. Every single one of those cars was previously damaged and they never got rumbled. With garages there can be a great distance between the person who books your car in and the person who holds the spanners. I like a direct link.
With older cars the m/d warranty is not applicable, no 993 is eligable for a m/d warranty for instance. Early Boxsters are exempt as will be early 996`s very soon. Even something like a `99 996 whilst eligable now will very soon be exempt if the customer wants to extend a warranty during their ownership of the car, (assuming they are going to keep it for 2-3 years.
Re: the FSA regulations we (car dealers) have indeed been caught in someone elses war. Basically if we want to offer an insurance backed warranty then we have to be registered with and operate under the guidelines of the FSA, (as we are / do).
After the initial posting that sparked all this debate I got my own Porsche warranty out and studied it very carefully, I hadn`t really bothered until then - in fairness the policy booklet didn`t turn up for 4 or 5 months so I couldn`t ! The wording is a bit vague in places. In particular whilst the engine mentions all internal components with certain exceptions the gearbox doesn`t. It mentions casings, clutch housing, final drive, transaxle, drive shafts and so on but not the phrase all internal gearbox components (except .....).
I`m currently trying to work out a possible in house extended policy beyond our own retail guarantee period, (at the moment we use an insurance backed scheme as is the norm). I have my own ideas on where things need to be in terms of cost versus cover but may start a seperate thread to open the floor to ideas in the future.
An interesting topic and one which can hopefully carry on as no one is in the firing line, merely exchanging ideas and different approaches. Once again lets remember that the real villains don`t post or get mentioned on this Forum because of the name & shame rules so what-ever your viewpoint appreciate that those within the industry who input ideas or sugestions are at least trying to be the good guys !
Henry
I know of a company that used to make a very good living out of putting cars into the m/d for a quick once over prior to sale. The m/d stamped the book, found a couple of odds and sods to correct and did them. The car then sold on. Every single one of those cars was previously damaged and they never got rumbled. With garages there can be a great distance between the person who books your car in and the person who holds the spanners. I like a direct link.
With older cars the m/d warranty is not applicable, no 993 is eligable for a m/d warranty for instance. Early Boxsters are exempt as will be early 996`s very soon. Even something like a `99 996 whilst eligable now will very soon be exempt if the customer wants to extend a warranty during their ownership of the car, (assuming they are going to keep it for 2-3 years.
Re: the FSA regulations we (car dealers) have indeed been caught in someone elses war. Basically if we want to offer an insurance backed warranty then we have to be registered with and operate under the guidelines of the FSA, (as we are / do).
After the initial posting that sparked all this debate I got my own Porsche warranty out and studied it very carefully, I hadn`t really bothered until then - in fairness the policy booklet didn`t turn up for 4 or 5 months so I couldn`t ! The wording is a bit vague in places. In particular whilst the engine mentions all internal components with certain exceptions the gearbox doesn`t. It mentions casings, clutch housing, final drive, transaxle, drive shafts and so on but not the phrase all internal gearbox components (except .....).
I`m currently trying to work out a possible in house extended policy beyond our own retail guarantee period, (at the moment we use an insurance backed scheme as is the norm). I have my own ideas on where things need to be in terms of cost versus cover but may start a seperate thread to open the floor to ideas in the future.
An interesting topic and one which can hopefully carry on as no one is in the firing line, merely exchanging ideas and different approaches. Once again lets remember that the real villains don`t post or get mentioned on this Forum because of the name & shame rules so what-ever your viewpoint appreciate that those within the industry who input ideas or sugestions are at least trying to be the good guys !
Henry
Henry in the light of the amendments to the sale of goods act as brushed upon in the other thread, im interested to know how you stand legally, with what appears to be sidestepping it with your bug prices.
"The Millennium bug or Pink price
The pink price is for the car exactly as it stands, no guarantee, no pre-sales service, nothing. You are guaranteed clean title to the car in terms of ownership but that is it. We make no exceptions. If the engine blows up on the way home then we will advise you on the best way to go but not dip into our pocket to effect a repair"
"The Millennium bug or Pink price
The pink price is for the car exactly as it stands, no guarantee, no pre-sales service, nothing. You are guaranteed clean title to the car in terms of ownership but that is it. We make no exceptions. If the engine blows up on the way home then we will advise you on the best way to go but not dip into our pocket to effect a repair"
We had a long chat with the trading standards people over this one, (at our invitation). We can`t only sell our cars this way, (ie we can`t as dealers say all cars go out at the bug price). We offer a full retail package on all our cars and that is the key. If someone wants to buy a car as a normal retail sale, as many people do, we are happy to oblige and firmly shoulder the resposibility and expectations that come with that. We are careful to explain the limitations of not taking a car at the retail price and would always sugest someone who is concerned or worried buy at the retail price. But some people are more independent and want to shoulder some of the risk in exchange for a reduction in the price they pay. We also self police our bug price deals in a number of ways and that is critical.
As I have said previously other than for property purchases I have never needed the services of a solicitor (or similar) in over 15 years selling Porsches and have never had reason to fight or reply to a single legal action in relation to a car we`ve sold. The trick is being open. Where dealers go wrong is by implying things are more rosy than they really are or not knowing what they are selling.
Henry
As I have said previously other than for property purchases I have never needed the services of a solicitor (or similar) in over 15 years selling Porsches and have never had reason to fight or reply to a single legal action in relation to a car we`ve sold. The trick is being open. Where dealers go wrong is by implying things are more rosy than they really are or not knowing what they are selling.
Henry
Been watching this one from a distance because of the recent BMW warranty situation I was led to believe Porsche's own cover was pretty good for the money. As of next month BMW will be asking myself for £250 per claim on top of their £1050 annual cover - worth it or not ? Well looking at all these 3rd party disasters and the time they take to fix (and money) I'm starting to believe paying for main dealer cover is money well spent.
Warranty....pah
3 years ago I bought a sub £10k LHD 3.2 of H for the bug price. Never been happier.
I've ragged the arse off it for most of that time and it still refuses to smoke, leak or make any nasty noises. Recent dyno puts it at 245bhp.
If the engine doesn't blow soon I'm taking it back - it must be faulty
3 years ago I bought a sub £10k LHD 3.2 of H for the bug price. Never been happier.
I've ragged the arse off it for most of that time and it still refuses to smoke, leak or make any nasty noises. Recent dyno puts it at 245bhp.
If the engine doesn't blow soon I'm taking it back - it must be faulty
good info there Henry, I would agree that is the other way of doing it i.e. sell good cars in the first place
in view of all the rogues our there who stay well away from forums, it's good to know that the likes of 911 virgin and Stirlings are looking after our interests
but 1 question henry, in view of the positive direction your business is taking, have you / are you considering extending the warranties you offer to at least 6 months or maybe more ? as I am sure many who don't know you would see 3 months as short...........
in view of all the rogues our there who stay well away from forums, it's good to know that the likes of 911 virgin and Stirlings are looking after our interests
but 1 question henry, in view of the positive direction your business is taking, have you / are you considering extending the warranties you offer to at least 6 months or maybe more ? as I am sure many who don't know you would see 3 months as short...........
With all our retail cars we offer a 3 month / 3,000 mile guarantee (which ever comes first). Bear in mind we are also covering wear & tear / consumable items on this warranty. The reason we put it on is to reassure customers that their car really has been properly serviced and we haven`t just smudged it through an Mot & changed the oil. Similarly people are human items get missed or forgotten and the guarantee period gives customers a good settling in period for any shortfalls to materialise. In essence we are trying to say the car was a good `un when it left us. It isn`t necessarily designed to run alongside a car for an extended period of ownership as insurance against failures that start once a car has left us for a while, (though obviously there is a period where we are doing that).
You must also bear in mind we sell some relatively old cars, 3.2 Carreras, 964`s & 993`s. What is expected of them is not the same as that expected of a 997 or newer 996.
We currently offer a warranty that runs alongside someone`s ownership but we are looking to see if we could improve on what is available.
What I want to offer is a totally transparent product with national coverage that covers customers cars at a level consumate with both their car and expectations. Funnily enough I`m having a chat with one of the big warranty companies this week to see if they can run a scheme if we fund it. We are unusual as a company in that we are actually financially more secure than the warranty companies in terms of available funds per car sold over a year to cover the cost of any repairs that become necessary. The benefit of insurance backed schemes is two fold. If the dealer goes out of business the warranty still remains in force and if the cost of repair work exceeds the amount of money in the pot the underwriters (in theory) step in and make up any differences. I say in theory because when Warranty Holdings stopped trading their underwriters became very fussy on what was covered and what wasn`t working to the strict letter of the policy and even finding some clauses that weren`t even in the policy ! with us neither of those scenarios are applicable. If the pot of premium paid money runs out then we can simply top it up and if we decided to sell the business on we could set asside a substatial fund to cover any shortfalls until the last warranty issued ran it`s course.
Given that we are self financed it would be almost impossible for us to actually go out of business.
I don`t have the perfect answer just yet but we`re working on it !
Henry
You must also bear in mind we sell some relatively old cars, 3.2 Carreras, 964`s & 993`s. What is expected of them is not the same as that expected of a 997 or newer 996.
We currently offer a warranty that runs alongside someone`s ownership but we are looking to see if we could improve on what is available.
What I want to offer is a totally transparent product with national coverage that covers customers cars at a level consumate with both their car and expectations. Funnily enough I`m having a chat with one of the big warranty companies this week to see if they can run a scheme if we fund it. We are unusual as a company in that we are actually financially more secure than the warranty companies in terms of available funds per car sold over a year to cover the cost of any repairs that become necessary. The benefit of insurance backed schemes is two fold. If the dealer goes out of business the warranty still remains in force and if the cost of repair work exceeds the amount of money in the pot the underwriters (in theory) step in and make up any differences. I say in theory because when Warranty Holdings stopped trading their underwriters became very fussy on what was covered and what wasn`t working to the strict letter of the policy and even finding some clauses that weren`t even in the policy ! with us neither of those scenarios are applicable. If the pot of premium paid money runs out then we can simply top it up and if we decided to sell the business on we could set asside a substatial fund to cover any shortfalls until the last warranty issued ran it`s course.
Given that we are self financed it would be almost impossible for us to actually go out of business.
I don`t have the perfect answer just yet but we`re working on it !
Henry
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