RSR in Autocar
Discussion
Fabulous cars that they are, I can't understand why anyone would pay such an enormous premium (like double) over a standard RHD Carrera. Yes I have driven both...
As these cars are highly likely to be get occasional use only, much better to go LHD and get something that is dynamically even better (oil tank location, pedal offset etc) and save a fortune.
I suspect most of the RHD 993 RS/RSR cars will end up as museum pieces due to their high prices.... Shame!
As these cars are highly likely to be get occasional use only, much better to go LHD and get something that is dynamically even better (oil tank location, pedal offset etc) and save a fortune.
I suspect most of the RHD 993 RS/RSR cars will end up as museum pieces due to their high prices.... Shame!
The RHD is £60k + because Porsche only sold 6 in the UK, and since the LHD now fetches upwards of £50k and there are around 80 made, I don't think that the price is way out.
You cannot use the RSR as an everyday car, agreed, but as for comparing it with a standard car, what are you on P-car? If you think that a £30k saving gives you as good a car, I'll see you at Oulton Park next month and you can show me the benefits on the track in front of my LHD RSR....
You cannot use the RSR as an everyday car, agreed, but as for comparing it with a standard car, what are you on P-car? If you think that a £30k saving gives you as good a car, I'll see you at Oulton Park next month and you can show me the benefits on the track in front of my LHD RSR....
Fighting talk from Colin 
Good to have you back 9M.
However, I think p-car was talking about value for money... yes an RSR is going to be many seconds quicker than a 993C2, but it won't be *twice* as quick... yet it costs *twice* the money.
Will it be twice as fun? Maybe, maybe not. Very subjective. I certainly think the 964RS is much more fun than a normal C2, but maybe not twice as much fun...
Anyway, The Red Baron has been booked onto the Oulton day, although it will be under new stewardship. I may have time for some badger baiting if insurance allows
Cheers
Domster
Good to have you back 9M.
However, I think p-car was talking about value for money... yes an RSR is going to be many seconds quicker than a 993C2, but it won't be *twice* as quick... yet it costs *twice* the money.
Will it be twice as fun? Maybe, maybe not. Very subjective. I certainly think the 964RS is much more fun than a normal C2, but maybe not twice as much fun...
Anyway, The Red Baron has been booked onto the Oulton day, although it will be under new stewardship. I may have time for some badger baiting if insurance allows
Cheers
Domster
P-CAR Bwahahahahaha! Chalk and cheese...
Had the good fortune to borrow a RHD 993RS recently -lovely, lovely car. Not as ferocious in the suspension department as the 964RS. Decievingly quick, but I felt instantly that I could sling wife/gf in the passenger seat, drive to France for a track day and gourmet chateaux meal and stiil be ready for a long drive home the following day.
Melv
Had the good fortune to borrow a RHD 993RS recently -lovely, lovely car. Not as ferocious in the suspension department as the 964RS. Decievingly quick, but I felt instantly that I could sling wife/gf in the passenger seat, drive to France for a track day and gourmet chateaux meal and stiil be ready for a long drive home the following day.
Melv
Hi Colin,
We spoke last year when I was trying to source monoball mounts for my standard 993...
Lets assume the 993RS&RSR are essentially the same thing (give or take the ugly RSR aero kit, lack of carpet, and added cage) so there are more like 60 RHD'ers than 6, but that's not the point I was trying to make.
I was trying to suggest that some of the £30K saving could be spent on a standard 993C2 and get it pretty close to a RS in terms of feel and ability.
Add a coil over suspension kit from Bilstein/H&R, monoball mounts, lower and align to RS settings, lose some of the luxury electrically powered items and the rear seats and as much sound proofing as you can easily reach. Better still buy your C2 sans A/C and full power seats and do this to it. Fit 18' wheels of the correct offset and you've got 95% of the RS performance and ability, £25K in the bank and something your not scared to use!
I looked closely at an trading up to an RS about 18 months ago but the ended up doing a lot of the above (didn't pull any sound proofing... YET) to mine. I spoke to Jersey RS about his beautiful example.
Don't get me wrong I'd absolutely love a 993RS but I think the premium for RHD version is daft.
I'd be happy to give you something follow at Oulton if I was going, but isn't your car on Motec now... hardly fair :-))
We spoke last year when I was trying to source monoball mounts for my standard 993...
Lets assume the 993RS&RSR are essentially the same thing (give or take the ugly RSR aero kit, lack of carpet, and added cage) so there are more like 60 RHD'ers than 6, but that's not the point I was trying to make.
I was trying to suggest that some of the £30K saving could be spent on a standard 993C2 and get it pretty close to a RS in terms of feel and ability.
Add a coil over suspension kit from Bilstein/H&R, monoball mounts, lower and align to RS settings, lose some of the luxury electrically powered items and the rear seats and as much sound proofing as you can easily reach. Better still buy your C2 sans A/C and full power seats and do this to it. Fit 18' wheels of the correct offset and you've got 95% of the RS performance and ability, £25K in the bank and something your not scared to use!
I looked closely at an trading up to an RS about 18 months ago but the ended up doing a lot of the above (didn't pull any sound proofing... YET) to mine. I spoke to Jersey RS about his beautiful example.
Don't get me wrong I'd absolutely love a 993RS but I think the premium for RHD version is daft.
I'd be happy to give you something follow at Oulton if I was going, but isn't your car on Motec now... hardly fair :-))
P-car,
Sorry, but comparisons between the RS and RSR are not really valid either, the RSR is THE track car to have and is definitely worth a lot more than the RS in terms of shell stiffness and precision. I could go on about the virtues of the RSR but I do not think that it is appropriate, but I will say that I am not frightened of using mine in the way that the great Porsche god intended, i.e. on the edge and flat all the way.
Looking at the costs involved to build an RSR equivalent, eventually you are looking at:
Donor car, lhd say, £20,000
Strip interior bare, fit fully welded in cage (as good or better than factory) £5000
Recaro seats, schroth harnesses £1500
Set 18" split rim wheels with tyres £3000
993tt brake conversion £2000
993tt/RS ABS system £2000 (guess)
lightweight flywheel & clutch £900
Engine modifications, 3.8 & 310bhp £5000
Limited slip diff £1000
GT2 front & CS rear spoilers £2000
Wind up windows, lightweight door glass & panels £1000
Aluminium bonnet £1000
Remove sunroof, replace panel, repaint £1500 (?)
Add it all up and you will have the grand total of £45,900. Resale value £30k. Almost makes an RSR seem cheap!
Don't get me wrong, I'm in the modification business as you know, but the moral of the story is that if Porsche doesn't build the ideal compromised car that you want, then modify a lesser one to suit your taste, but if you want the ultimate track car, either buy an ex racer and sanitise it or shell out on a Clubsport because it is cheaper in the long run.
However, this doesn't help me when you have a CS and it still isn't fast enough, at this point you have to get the big chequebook out for the 400bhp atmo motor and adjustable dampers.
No, my car is currently standard without Motec, but the new engine will have an M48 for sure come April.
Sorry, but comparisons between the RS and RSR are not really valid either, the RSR is THE track car to have and is definitely worth a lot more than the RS in terms of shell stiffness and precision. I could go on about the virtues of the RSR but I do not think that it is appropriate, but I will say that I am not frightened of using mine in the way that the great Porsche god intended, i.e. on the edge and flat all the way.
Looking at the costs involved to build an RSR equivalent, eventually you are looking at:
Donor car, lhd say, £20,000
Strip interior bare, fit fully welded in cage (as good or better than factory) £5000
Recaro seats, schroth harnesses £1500
Set 18" split rim wheels with tyres £3000
993tt brake conversion £2000
993tt/RS ABS system £2000 (guess)
lightweight flywheel & clutch £900
Engine modifications, 3.8 & 310bhp £5000
Limited slip diff £1000
GT2 front & CS rear spoilers £2000
Wind up windows, lightweight door glass & panels £1000
Aluminium bonnet £1000
Remove sunroof, replace panel, repaint £1500 (?)
Add it all up and you will have the grand total of £45,900. Resale value £30k. Almost makes an RSR seem cheap!
Don't get me wrong, I'm in the modification business as you know, but the moral of the story is that if Porsche doesn't build the ideal compromised car that you want, then modify a lesser one to suit your taste, but if you want the ultimate track car, either buy an ex racer and sanitise it or shell out on a Clubsport because it is cheaper in the long run.
However, this doesn't help me when you have a CS and it still isn't fast enough, at this point you have to get the big chequebook out for the 400bhp atmo motor and adjustable dampers.
No, my car is currently standard without Motec, but the new engine will have an M48 for sure come April.
What are the differences between an RS & RSR ? I'm aware of:-
full cage
front & rear spoilers
carpet removal etc.
Anything else ? Are they mechanically identical ?
Also, on a similar subject, I was speaking to an RSR owner last year who said that he'd changed the gearbox in his to a UCR one. Anyone know if this upgrade can be done to a standard RS and the likely cost ?
Thanks
Jim
full cage
front & rear spoilers
carpet removal etc.
Anything else ? Are they mechanically identical ?
Also, on a similar subject, I was speaking to an RSR owner last year who said that he'd changed the gearbox in his to a UCR one. Anyone know if this upgrade can be done to a standard RS and the likely cost ?
Thanks
Jim
Jim,
I have to say I wasn't aware that they were that differant. Ninemeister will be able to tell us in detail but perhaps the RSR has the solid valve lifters (like the Cup cars) and some extra shell strengthening other than the cage? Do the Cup cars dispense with ABS as most racers do?
Never heard of UCR could he mean Ultra Close Ratio???
Cherry picking from Colin's list to get the road/track compromise I'd like, I'll take...
Recaro seats £1500
Set 18" split rim wheels with tyres £3000
993RS brake conversion £2000
Lightweight flywheel & clutch £900
Limited slip diff £1000
Lightweight door panels £400
Fit Motec M48 instead of 3.8 engine £4000
Plus... RS steering and suspension bushing and engine mounts £500
Ten grand should do it then :-))
>> Edited by p-car on Saturday 1st February 18:32
I have to say I wasn't aware that they were that differant. Ninemeister will be able to tell us in detail but perhaps the RSR has the solid valve lifters (like the Cup cars) and some extra shell strengthening other than the cage? Do the Cup cars dispense with ABS as most racers do?
Never heard of UCR could he mean Ultra Close Ratio???
Cherry picking from Colin's list to get the road/track compromise I'd like, I'll take...
Recaro seats £1500
Set 18" split rim wheels with tyres £3000
993RS brake conversion £2000
Lightweight flywheel & clutch £900
Limited slip diff £1000
Lightweight door panels £400
Fit Motec M48 instead of 3.8 engine £4000
Plus... RS steering and suspension bushing and engine mounts £500
Ten grand should do it then :-))
>> Edited by p-car on Saturday 1st February 18:32
The cage is everything really, the shell is around 70% stiffer than a standard car, and no amount of bolted in cages will generate the improvements that this gives on the circuit.
The major differences are thus:
Cage & no interior trim whatsoever
Nomex recaros & Schroth harnesses
Wind up door windows
Engine bay blower deleted
Lightweight clutch & sintered centre plate
Revised gear ratios, although I think that they all had steel syncros
Larger 92 litre fuel tank (it's big!)
GT2 front & CS rear spoilers
There may be more, I just had too many beers last night to think of any!
The major differences are thus:
Cage & no interior trim whatsoever
Nomex recaros & Schroth harnesses
Wind up door windows
Engine bay blower deleted
Lightweight clutch & sintered centre plate
Revised gear ratios, although I think that they all had steel syncros
Larger 92 litre fuel tank (it's big!)
GT2 front & CS rear spoilers
There may be more, I just had too many beers last night to think of any!
Cheers.
As you said I mean ultra close ratio when I said UCR. I think he said that with these gear ratios the cars max speed was only about 150mph but you got there a lot quick. He als osaid it was a n option from porsche. Quite interested in it as I think it would make quite a difference on the track.
jim
As you said I mean ultra close ratio when I said UCR. I think he said that with these gear ratios the cars max speed was only about 150mph but you got there a lot quick. He als osaid it was a n option from porsche. Quite interested in it as I think it would make quite a difference on the track.
jim
In case anyone is interested, Porsche Post had a 96N 993RS in black with 62k miles for sale at 35k, which seemed very good value.
Plus a 993RSR for sale with 28k miles for 62k, or 50somethingK ex VAT.
I will dig out the numbers if people are interested. That 993RS seems a bit of a bargain.
Plus a 993RSR for sale with 28k miles for 62k, or 50somethingK ex VAT.
I will dig out the numbers if people are interested. That 993RS seems a bit of a bargain.
Domster....just a small detail to your post,if I may.
The bargain RSR is LHD For £35k
The RSR which the seller ststes is 1 of 7 rhd cars is RHD.
Obviously these factors have a huge influence on price.
Unfortunately never managed to catch up with you at VW yesterday,but I beleive I saw your new BM....looks very interesting,,I hope you are getting on with it.Hopefully catch up at another VW....
The bargain RSR is LHD For £35k
The RSR which the seller ststes is 1 of 7 rhd cars is RHD.
Obviously these factors have a huge influence on price.
Unfortunately never managed to catch up with you at VW yesterday,but I beleive I saw your new BM....looks very interesting,,I hope you are getting on with it.Hopefully catch up at another VW....
RSR or RHD 993RS Clubsport???
Perhaps I should know this, and I do admit it is a bit of an anorak point! but I'm always a bit hazy in this area coz I consider and RSR simply to be the unofficial and non Porsche Germany designation of the very rare rhd 993RS clubsport.
As far as I'm aware it was actually sold simply as a RHD 993RS clubsport & from what I understand it was to stop confusion with the 968CS that was around at that time Porsche GB decided to call it in the UK the RSR. (although it was never badged as such)
So if that is the case and its an unoffical designation does it really only apply to the RHD CS?
Perhaps I should know this, and I do admit it is a bit of an anorak point! but I'm always a bit hazy in this area coz I consider and RSR simply to be the unofficial and non Porsche Germany designation of the very rare rhd 993RS clubsport.
As far as I'm aware it was actually sold simply as a RHD 993RS clubsport & from what I understand it was to stop confusion with the 968CS that was around at that time Porsche GB decided to call it in the UK the RSR. (although it was never badged as such)
So if that is the case and its an unoffical designation does it really only apply to the RHD CS?
clubsport said: Domster....just a small detail to your post,if I may.
The bargain RSR is LHD For £35k
The RSR which the seller ststes is 1 of 7 rhd cars is RHD.
Obviously these factors have a huge influence on price.
Unfortunately never managed to catch up with you at VW yesterday,but I beleive I saw your new BM....looks very interesting,,I hope you are getting on with it.Hopefully catch up at another VW....
Car was indeed a LHD RS not an RSR, just to stop Iguana getting his employer's chequebook out! Thanks for that.
Still, good value.
Very busy at VW, meeting lots of peeps. Shame I didn't spot you.
ATB
Dom
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