Interested in a 911 RS - 1972/73 model
Discussion
Hi,
I am currently thinking about getting a 911 RS (72/73)as my first car for my yet "no existent collection". The main reason I like this car is its famous heritage and the fact that I can still drive it on the track. Currently, I always find myself looking to improve my current car with expensive add-ons, which I will not get back when I finally sell it at the end of the year (never intended it to be a keeper).
Alternatively, I am still contemplating a GT3, but if I get a RS instead I could then get a less “focused” Porsche for my regular use and drive a “special car” on the track. The questions I would like feedback on is:
1) Does this logic make sense?
2) What model / year should I consider?
3) What are the main things to look for?
4) What condition should the car have?
5) How important is originality vs. modern upgrades (i.e. brakes)?
6) What should I expect to pay (I was thinking £30-£45K)?
7) Where is the best place to find such a car?
8) Where can I go or whom could I talk to learn more about the car?
Sorry, for the long list but and thoughts or comments are appreciated.
TEE
I am currently thinking about getting a 911 RS (72/73)as my first car for my yet "no existent collection". The main reason I like this car is its famous heritage and the fact that I can still drive it on the track. Currently, I always find myself looking to improve my current car with expensive add-ons, which I will not get back when I finally sell it at the end of the year (never intended it to be a keeper).
Alternatively, I am still contemplating a GT3, but if I get a RS instead I could then get a less “focused” Porsche for my regular use and drive a “special car” on the track. The questions I would like feedback on is:
1) Does this logic make sense?
2) What model / year should I consider?
3) What are the main things to look for?
4) What condition should the car have?
5) How important is originality vs. modern upgrades (i.e. brakes)?
6) What should I expect to pay (I was thinking £30-£45K)?
7) Where is the best place to find such a car?
8) Where can I go or whom could I talk to learn more about the car?
Sorry, for the long list but and thoughts or comments are appreciated.
TEE
Some help for you:
3 currently for sale on www.mobile.de all 1973 models, prices between 79K and 140K Euros. Also check out www.911-rs.de and www.dennigcars.com they have 5 cars from 1973, priced from about 50K Euros.
As far as logic goes, it's your money therefore your choice.
Condition wise they should be in excellent condition, these are collector's cars.
I would suggest they should be totally original, which is why I did not mention the 2.8RSR built on a 911RS (1973) available at www.911-rs.de
All the ones shown are 1973 year models.
I am sure Domster and Iguana plus others can help you more than me.
3 currently for sale on www.mobile.de all 1973 models, prices between 79K and 140K Euros. Also check out www.911-rs.de and www.dennigcars.com they have 5 cars from 1973, priced from about 50K Euros.
As far as logic goes, it's your money therefore your choice.
Condition wise they should be in excellent condition, these are collector's cars.
I would suggest they should be totally original, which is why I did not mention the 2.8RSR built on a 911RS (1973) available at www.911-rs.de
All the ones shown are 1973 year models.
I am sure Domster and Iguana plus others can help you more than me.
autofarm is the only uk company that does much with these www.autofarm.co.uk
think they have a original one and a modernised 3.6L motec engined jobbie if you want to go the non standard route.
Bennno
think they have a original one and a modernised 3.6L motec engined jobbie if you want to go the non standard route.
Bennno
Cheers Kevin.
Iguana is the real expert on old RSs, I only like the more modern ones (964+) myself, but that's just a personal thing and the oldies are meant to be pretty amazing... very tactile and lots of character.
I think you'll find that if you forfeit character a little, then a 964RS or 993RS will be more practical propositions, as they have great handling but also great brakes - which the 2.7RS never had. Interestingly, the newer ones aren't meant to be much quicker!
IMHO, if you can afford it, the new GT3 Clubsport seems like a bit of a treat, and will hold its value well in years to come. I don't fancy a first generation GT3 as some complaints have been made in some quarters about their brakes and overall trackability. The new one should address those problems.
The nineties RSs are pretty spectacular :yawn: I won't drone on as these guys have heard it all before. Suffice to say that Colin Belton (ninemeister), a respected tuner, reckons that a tweaked 964RS (say 5k mods) would be quicker than a 1st gen GT3 on most circuits.
As for the oldies, you need to ask Iguana or some real experts. They are poor value if you ask me, far too expensive - up to 60k or something these days. The provenance and originality is a big thing here, and if you want to tinker with it I'd suggest something more modern and less precious - or a decent replica, which will cost a third of the price.
If I was in your shoes, I would consider the Cup or 964RS (a Cup is for sale on PH classifieds today) as a weekend/trackday car, and either a 968, 993 or Boxster as everyday driver.
Soooo....
1) Does this logic make sense?
Decide whether you want one or two cars for your money. I would be tempted to get a replica 2.7RS and have some fun with the extra cash, or a nicely orginal 964RS etc. if you are worried about the investment potential.
2) What model / year should I consider?
Depends on car.
3) What are the main things to look for?
Depends on car. More to watch out for on older cars, plus watch the provenance of the collector's specials like the 2.7RS.
4) What condition should the car have?
Depends on what you want to pay. It is easier (and cheaper) to find a mint newer car though, than one from the 70s. If you want brand new, get a deposit on the GT3 clubsport.
5) How important is originality vs. modern upgrades (i.e. brakes)?
Not sure you should even think original 2.7RS if you are asking this question. Better bet would be 964RS or 993RS (993RS is technically better and easier to drive, but pricier).
6) What should I expect to pay (I was thinking £30-£45K)?
2.7RS - struggle to get an original for this. Replica easily available. Consider this.
964RS - plenty available, see www.mcp-motorsport.co.uk (I am not a big fan of Martin, but his stock is alwaya quite good).
993RS - in budget, must be considered
GT3 - get one LHD for the upper reaches. Not sure I'd bother
7) Where is the best place to find such a car?
See Kevin's links. Maybe also visit Autofarm (www.autofarm.co.uk) as they are vintage RS experts. And MCP is a good website for the modern ones.
8) Where can I go or whom could I talk to learn more about the car?
Autofarm for a chat.
Hope this is useful.
Cheers
Domster
Mark Waring also sources these cars...wish I could remember his website...something like worldwide classics....
Tee, nice choice, respect to you...but be very very careful out there - originality is a must for these cars, even the wrong flared rear wings make a difference.......GT3 a good backup too.
Tee, nice choice, respect to you...but be very very careful out there - originality is a must for these cars, even the wrong flared rear wings make a difference.......GT3 a good backup too.
911 RS of this era is a fantastic car..i always wanted one,but feel it is definitely a fair weather car now it is THE classic Porsche.
AS you are considering other cars,you may want to consider the 911 Clubsport..there are 53 rhd cars registered in UK between '87-89...They are white with red CARRERA scrpt & wheels,based on 3.2 Carrera with lightweight spec.they are a truly wonderful car.price range is £22-£30 ish thousand and are more usable on a day to day basis.
There are road tests I have where they have come out very well against & in some case eclipsed the fabled early RS.They do not have the cachet of the fabled one in Porsche circles however.
AS you are considering other cars,you may want to consider the 911 Clubsport..there are 53 rhd cars registered in UK between '87-89...They are white with red CARRERA scrpt & wheels,based on 3.2 Carrera with lightweight spec.they are a truly wonderful car.price range is £22-£30 ish thousand and are more usable on a day to day basis.
There are road tests I have where they have come out very well against & in some case eclipsed the fabled early RS.They do not have the cachet of the fabled one in Porsche circles however.
" Suffice to say that Colin Belton (ninemeister), a respected tuner, reckons that a tweaked 964RS (say 5k mods) would be quicker than a 1st gen GT3 on most circuits."
No problemo!! With my Cup Car at 300bhp, it is within 5bhp/tonne of a 1st gen GT3 and easily keeps up (but with more noise!!) So any RS with over 300, and Colin knows it is possible, should easily give the heavier GT3 a good run!!
Melv
No problemo!! With my Cup Car at 300bhp, it is within 5bhp/tonne of a 1st gen GT3 and easily keeps up (but with more noise!!) So any RS with over 300, and Colin knows it is possible, should easily give the heavier GT3 a good run!!
Melv
Clubsport is right, the 80s 3.2 CS is a good choice as well. Came out higher than a 964RS, just behind the 2.7RS in an Evo test. Depends if you like the look (similar to 2.7RS, so you may).
PS Don't mean to slag off 1st gen 996 GT3s as they are great cars, but just not sure best value for money for what you want. The new one, however, may eclipse all else!
PS Don't mean to slag off 1st gen 996 GT3s as they are great cars, but just not sure best value for money for what you want. The new one, however, may eclipse all else!
Kevinday, Benno, Domster, rubystone, clubsport and melv
First of, thanks for the feedback. All of you raised valid points. Particular, I share the doubts whether the 1 gen GT3 is really good value for money because of some of its known weaknesses, hence my hesitation. As for a new GT3 – I also share the belief that it will set new standards – yet I find the price is simply to high.
I like the idea of the old 911 2.7 RS because it is a classic and, I guess, therefore the investment characteristic would warrant the price. In addition, it is a car, which over time could be personalized yet keeping it authentic.
I looked at the 993 RS which I am very fond of – simple but great to drive – but again I shy away from the asking price for a well kept spec. The 964 RS, although it is a great car – more so on the track than lets say a B-road – somehow never really appealed to me. I guess mainly superficial looks – I hope I am not stepping on anyone’s toes by saying that.
Hence my dilemma, which one to get. I was warming up to my initially presented idea but very quickly you guys touched on some valid comments which make reconsider.
That is why the GT3 would be my current favorite if it would not be for the many little “if and but” concerns.
TEE
P.S. As I am German I would only consider LHD
First of, thanks for the feedback. All of you raised valid points. Particular, I share the doubts whether the 1 gen GT3 is really good value for money because of some of its known weaknesses, hence my hesitation. As for a new GT3 – I also share the belief that it will set new standards – yet I find the price is simply to high.
I like the idea of the old 911 2.7 RS because it is a classic and, I guess, therefore the investment characteristic would warrant the price. In addition, it is a car, which over time could be personalized yet keeping it authentic.
I looked at the 993 RS which I am very fond of – simple but great to drive – but again I shy away from the asking price for a well kept spec. The 964 RS, although it is a great car – more so on the track than lets say a B-road – somehow never really appealed to me. I guess mainly superficial looks – I hope I am not stepping on anyone’s toes by saying that.
Hence my dilemma, which one to get. I was warming up to my initially presented idea but very quickly you guys touched on some valid comments which make reconsider.
That is why the GT3 would be my current favorite if it would not be for the many little “if and but” concerns.
TEE
P.S. As I am German I would only consider LHD
Iguana, hope to meet you at VW this Sunday to discuss :-)
BTW what's wrong with the first generation GT3? (apart from the fact it gets in the way on corners at track days)
Edited to preserve the anonymity of the forum lizard.
>> Edited by domster (moderator) on Monday 3rd February 10:13
BTW what's wrong with the first generation GT3? (apart from the fact it gets in the way on corners at track days)
Edited to preserve the anonymity of the forum lizard.
>> Edited by domster (moderator) on Monday 3rd February 10:13
Silver Arrows (respected classic Merc SL specialist) have had a 2.7RS listed as in stock on their website (www.silverarrows.co.uk) for ages. There are a couple of nice pics. They describe it as a rust free original matching numbers Italian import. Could be worth an enquiry if you're still leaning towards an early car?
Price is POA (I hate it when people can't just tell you the price in ad's!) but if it's anything like their Mercs they're not shy about asking silly money. Nearly bought the other half a car there - lovely chap but he was insistent that top cars command top money and would not budge from the asking price. His stock doesn't move very quickly and he's based out of a nice little mews location in Fulham so I presume he has other sources of income!
I've never had the pleasure of driving a 2.7RS but I have had an extended drive of a 2.4S of that vintage. While it was lovely it felt quite old to be frank. Is the RS really in such a different league?
Chris
Price is POA (I hate it when people can't just tell you the price in ad's!) but if it's anything like their Mercs they're not shy about asking silly money. Nearly bought the other half a car there - lovely chap but he was insistent that top cars command top money and would not budge from the asking price. His stock doesn't move very quickly and he's based out of a nice little mews location in Fulham so I presume he has other sources of income!
I've never had the pleasure of driving a 2.7RS but I have had an extended drive of a 2.4S of that vintage. While it was lovely it felt quite old to be frank. Is the RS really in such a different league?
Chris
Hi, I know after reading the rules of posting I can't name & shame on this forum and I do not wish to upset anyone, but I just have to comment on this Autofarm subject and in particular the RS replica for sale.
I'm not going to name & shame the company, although it appears I am not the only one who does not hold them in the highest regard, I'm merely going state a fact that is well known in cerain Porsche circles
I have met the owner of this car & he seems a nice genuine guy, but he doesnt seem to be aware that
:edited for potential legal reasons - this could be a valid point though, so please contact this poster directly for more information if interested in this car:
Edited by domster (moderator)
PS Porscheboy, I had also heard the rumour mentioned here (and may know you or at least a mutual friend or three) and it does seem that the jury is out on Autofarm. Yet they are one of the few specialists in RSs, hence the fact they have been mentioned. Buyer beware, as always.
>> Edited by domster (moderator) on Thursday 30th January 14:24
I'm not going to name & shame the company, although it appears I am not the only one who does not hold them in the highest regard, I'm merely going state a fact that is well known in cerain Porsche circles
I have met the owner of this car & he seems a nice genuine guy, but he doesnt seem to be aware that
:edited for potential legal reasons - this could be a valid point though, so please contact this poster directly for more information if interested in this car:
Edited by domster (moderator)
PS Porscheboy, I had also heard the rumour mentioned here (and may know you or at least a mutual friend or three) and it does seem that the jury is out on Autofarm. Yet they are one of the few specialists in RSs, hence the fact they have been mentioned. Buyer beware, as always.
>> Edited by domster (moderator) on Thursday 30th January 14:24
Tee, early 911 discussion which includes a nice bit of handbag banter with myself & rubystone can be found here-
www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?p=1&f=48&t=17829&h=0&hw=911S
a bit more on-
www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=15995&f=48&h=0&hw=911S
Edited to add- Domster why the legal edit of an earlier post? I'll make a bet its the :edited, sorry iguana, this is against posting policy as it could be legally dodgy... this can't be put up in case Autofarm tries to sue PistonHeads:
I know you are law trained but surely its not really a legal issue if it is in fact true rather than just a rumour?
Its pretty common knowledge anyway.
:That is why I suggested interested parties speak to Porscheboy direct:
Anyway I wont comment further but someone else agrees too as this post I found back in the archives says-
Wednesday 28th August 2002
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I can't agree with the recomend of autofarm. More like Autofarce, rude sales people, clueless service dept and a million other reasons. Its been a while since I went there but its like a bad taste in the mouth ie it never goes away. I do appreciate things do change but I thought the Camtune operation was far superior. Its only my opinion tho..
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
:This post is OK.... it is the claims about the car they have for sale that can be troublesome for Ted.
Just doing my job
>> Edited by iguana on Thursday 30th January 15:36
>> Edited by domster (moderator) on Thursday 30th January 15:46
>> Edited by domster (moderator) on Thursday 30th January 15:48
>> Edited by domster (moderator) on Thursday 30th January 15:50
>> Edited by iguana on Sunday 2nd February 18:15
www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?p=1&f=48&t=17829&h=0&hw=911S
a bit more on-
www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=15995&f=48&h=0&hw=911S
Edited to add- Domster why the legal edit of an earlier post? I'll make a bet its the :edited, sorry iguana, this is against posting policy as it could be legally dodgy... this can't be put up in case Autofarm tries to sue PistonHeads:
I know you are law trained but surely its not really a legal issue if it is in fact true rather than just a rumour?
Its pretty common knowledge anyway.
:That is why I suggested interested parties speak to Porscheboy direct:
Anyway I wont comment further but someone else agrees too as this post I found back in the archives says-
Wednesday 28th August 2002
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I can't agree with the recomend of autofarm. More like Autofarce, rude sales people, clueless service dept and a million other reasons. Its been a while since I went there but its like a bad taste in the mouth ie it never goes away. I do appreciate things do change but I thought the Camtune operation was far superior. Its only my opinion tho..
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
:This post is OK.... it is the claims about the car they have for sale that can be troublesome for Ted.
Just doing my job
>> Edited by iguana on Thursday 30th January 15:36
>> Edited by domster (moderator) on Thursday 30th January 15:46
>> Edited by domster (moderator) on Thursday 30th January 15:48
>> Edited by domster (moderator) on Thursday 30th January 15:50
>> Edited by iguana on Sunday 2nd February 18:15
rubystone said: Wow. I wonder what Iguana's post actually said in its full unexpurgated glory...
Ruby I'll post it again at about 2am when Komandant Colbeck is asleep, after he hangs up his peaked leather cap & his evening Bratwirst & a few gallons of Hock orgy is over.....
I shall now wander around the prison camp shaking earth from my trousers & whistling Hitler has only got one ball in a great escape styley...
Only joking Dom
or with his new and rather frustrating powers I'll probabally be banned from logging in for a month and have to go in the cooler I've already told Rubystone what, I mean, vot it iz about off-line. He is just winding you up, in anticipation for some kickboxing at VW to settle the RS debate you two had, once and for all 
A reminder to all.... please do not post anything libellous on PH, for Ted's sake, ie stuff about third parties breaking the law.
You know how Jeffrey Archer got off for shagging prostitutes for years, and got tons of damages, because the Mirror couldn't prove anything at the time
>> Edited by domster (moderator) on Thursday 30th January 17:51
>> Edited by domster (moderator) on Monday 3rd February 09:54
A reminder to all.... please do not post anything libellous on PH, for Ted's sake, ie stuff about third parties breaking the law.
You know how Jeffrey Archer got off for shagging prostitutes for years, and got tons of damages, because the Mirror couldn't prove anything at the time
>> Edited by domster (moderator) on Thursday 30th January 17:51
>> Edited by domster (moderator) on Monday 3rd February 09:54
Sorry Dom my PC seems to have developed a screen fault & I couldn't quite catch that last post.
Was it somthing about you and the staff at a certain Porsche specialists were in an orgy with Jeffry Archer with lots of prostitutes and you were all looking in the mirror
Bloody hell on re-reading it it seems I was involved too, thats shocking and you a moderator too
>> Edited by iguana on Thursday 30th January 17:59
Edited to stop Ted's sex life being brought into disrepute.
>> Edited by dazren (moderator) on Thursday 30th January 19:16
Was it somthing about you and the staff at a certain Porsche specialists were in an orgy with Jeffry Archer with lots of prostitutes and you were all looking in the mirror
Bloody hell on re-reading it it seems I was involved too, thats shocking and you a moderator too
>> Edited by iguana on Thursday 30th January 17:59
Edited to stop Ted's sex life being brought into disrepute.
>> Edited by dazren (moderator) on Thursday 30th January 19:16
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