what a difference
Discussion
Wow what a difference a new clutch makes. Just got it back from specialists carefull hands and driven back into work on some nice open country lanes... yum yum.
When I bought it I got a specialist to look it over, as everyone here advises. Report came back that nothing untoward was happening and it was all ship shape. Somehow the 'specialist' missed the badly worn clutch and the owner didn't let me push the car enough to find out.
Anyway spilt milk and such... I finally got the new clutch in today and the car feels totally different, lighter more responsive and much quicker. I know this can't all be down to the clutch, and some of it is down to the dog of a volvo I've had as a loaner since it went in... but its fantastic. I feel like I've only just found the car I bought back in Sept.
as an aside anyone else have similar bad experiences of 'specialists' ?
When I bought it I got a specialist to look it over, as everyone here advises. Report came back that nothing untoward was happening and it was all ship shape. Somehow the 'specialist' missed the badly worn clutch and the owner didn't let me push the car enough to find out.
Anyway spilt milk and such... I finally got the new clutch in today and the car feels totally different, lighter more responsive and much quicker. I know this can't all be down to the clutch, and some of it is down to the dog of a volvo I've had as a loaner since it went in... but its fantastic. I feel like I've only just found the car I bought back in Sept.
as an aside anyone else have similar bad experiences of 'specialists' ?
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I had the clutch on my 86 3.2 changed a few weeks ago, and it transformed the car. It went from being difficult to get in gear and crunching reverse to smooth and more what you'd expect in a couple of days. Money well spent. I also needed a clutch release fork or something, so that added a bit to the bill, unfortunately.
It is always best to keep company names off the forum - people can approach you direct for the names offline if necessary, or you can perhaps hint who they are.
Most opinions about named companies are fine - hence the Henry thread - but just be careful if you accuse them of anything illegal or detrimental to their reputation.
Personally, I would be happy to see the specialist named in this instance, as they should have spotted the worn clutch, but it is best to purely state the facts only and never be subjective. They don't have an opportunity to defend themselves here, so if you can't be objective then don't name them...
Interestingly, Northway in Reading once did an inspection on a car I had bought, and picked up on a number of things (thanks guys), but not the fact it had a new rear quarter... mistakes do happen, but Northway aren't top of my list now.
So yes you are unlucky about the clutch... you should talk to the specialist and say they should have spotted it, then see what they say. I am sure everyone is as interested in their customer service policy - probably more so than the fact that they missed the worn clutch, as rectification is always the big thing in these cases.
ATB
Domster
Most opinions about named companies are fine - hence the Henry thread - but just be careful if you accuse them of anything illegal or detrimental to their reputation.
Personally, I would be happy to see the specialist named in this instance, as they should have spotted the worn clutch, but it is best to purely state the facts only and never be subjective. They don't have an opportunity to defend themselves here, so if you can't be objective then don't name them...
Interestingly, Northway in Reading once did an inspection on a car I had bought, and picked up on a number of things (thanks guys), but not the fact it had a new rear quarter... mistakes do happen, but Northway aren't top of my list now.
So yes you are unlucky about the clutch... you should talk to the specialist and say they should have spotted it, then see what they say. I am sure everyone is as interested in their customer service policy - probably more so than the fact that they missed the worn clutch, as rectification is always the big thing in these cases.
ATB
Domster
In defence of all the specialists out there, the fact that the car got to the inspection and drove away indicated that the clutch was functional, and even though a damn good stonking down the local test road MAY have indicated a problem, how many vendors are happy to see their car thrashed mercylessly in the name of an opinion as to its worth or problems.
Regarding Ray missing a quarter replacement, my bodyman Marc can spot a paint defect from 20yards away, sees colour hues and differences that make you think he is mad and picked out a roof repaint on a 993RS in the shop just because of the polish mark swirl size. I defy anyone to spot a quarter replacement that he has done, no-one would be able to tell, but the point is that it is each to their own, you cannot expect a service technician to be 100% on bodywork, neither would I expect Marc to diagnose a slight engine fault or a 3.2 Carrera that is down on power.
Put yourself in our position, if you miss something you get slated, if you spot something that turns out to be nothing you get slated. I have got to the point where I will spend 30 minutes looking at a car, give a verbal opinion and charge nothing for fear of being sued, otherwise it is a 5 hour job, plus a one hour report write, £300+VAT and still with a disclaimer at the bottom. You cannot win either way.
There is good and bad in every walk of life, but the moral of the story is that if you all go around stuffing specialists in general for odd mistakes or omissions, the power of the net is such that you will only read about all the bad points and eventually you will have no-one left willing to work on your car. The other alternative is that we (the royal we) all charge £100 per hour to cover the impending lawsuits.
It's your choice (in my opinion).
Regarding Ray missing a quarter replacement, my bodyman Marc can spot a paint defect from 20yards away, sees colour hues and differences that make you think he is mad and picked out a roof repaint on a 993RS in the shop just because of the polish mark swirl size. I defy anyone to spot a quarter replacement that he has done, no-one would be able to tell, but the point is that it is each to their own, you cannot expect a service technician to be 100% on bodywork, neither would I expect Marc to diagnose a slight engine fault or a 3.2 Carrera that is down on power.
Put yourself in our position, if you miss something you get slated, if you spot something that turns out to be nothing you get slated. I have got to the point where I will spend 30 minutes looking at a car, give a verbal opinion and charge nothing for fear of being sued, otherwise it is a 5 hour job, plus a one hour report write, £300+VAT and still with a disclaimer at the bottom. You cannot win either way.
There is good and bad in every walk of life, but the moral of the story is that if you all go around stuffing specialists in general for odd mistakes or omissions, the power of the net is such that you will only read about all the bad points and eventually you will have no-one left willing to work on your car. The other alternative is that we (the royal we) all charge £100 per hour to cover the impending lawsuits.
It's your choice (in my opinion).
Good points Colin.
It is a difficult position to be in, that is why I was careful not to give Ray a good drubbing. He did a pretty good job, just not a *perfect* one. It is fair for people to then make up their mind whether to use him for a similar service. Likewise, the original poster here should be thankful for the things the report *did* show up.
That said, incidents of good customer service (and occasional unforgiveable incidents of poor customer service) should be shared through forums like this - but in the correct manner, ie not so some defenceless specialist loses half his business through unsubstantiated rumours. There are enough mugs born every day to give the bad apples custom, we look out for ourselves here and warn others in a legal and responsible way.
It is a difficult position to be in, that is why I was careful not to give Ray a good drubbing. He did a pretty good job, just not a *perfect* one. It is fair for people to then make up their mind whether to use him for a similar service. Likewise, the original poster here should be thankful for the things the report *did* show up.
That said, incidents of good customer service (and occasional unforgiveable incidents of poor customer service) should be shared through forums like this - but in the correct manner, ie not so some defenceless specialist loses half his business through unsubstantiated rumours. There are enough mugs born every day to give the bad apples custom, we look out for ourselves here and warn others in a legal and responsible way.
I didn't want to name names for precisely the reasons you've all suggested. Mail me off list and I'll certainly tell you.
Thanks Dom for the go ahead to 'name and shame' but as you say perhaps its best or simpler if we don't.
I understand 9M's arguments and he's dead right in some ways. I wouldn't blame any technician for not wanting to do inspections for fear of legal actions.
However inspections are obviously required by many car buyers and are perfectly legitimate tranasactions (who of you bought a house without a survey ?) so there will always be a market of specialist technicians who will do inspections. This should be for the right price of course, and that should reflect the legal risk borne, and technicians should undertake such inspections with their eyes open, figuratively speaking.... err and literally.
If 9M says its £300 for a 'proper' inspection then that's his price, others may charge less or more according to their circumstances, and
I may well have been tempted to pay that. I was certianly suprised at how cheap the inspection I got was (yes, with hindsight I should have queried this).
As you say its my choice to get an inspection and I thought I'd decided to get one. What annoys me is that I thought I was paying for such a service which I apparently didn't get. Yes the clutch was working in that functioned but it was very near the end of its life and is a high cost item to replace. I'd suggest that most people would have expected this to be mentioned in a inspection report. (The clutch was finally replaced within an inch of its life and I've only done a couple of hundred miles since I bought it).
I would sympathise with 9M if I were 'stuffing' a technican for an 'odd mistake' but I don't think I am. 1. I'm not contemplating legal action, 2. a £1000 clutch is not a small matter (well not for me anyway), 3 what else is an inspection report for if not for spotting issues like this that should be reflected in the price ?
As I will only name names on a 1 to 1 basis via email, I'm not sure my comments in this forum are in anyway different from a person to person chat where opinions are offered. I would agree that unfounded, inflated and anonymous accussations which are impossible to refute should be avoided, as I hope I have.
I've been very lucky and found a brilliant chap to do my services and reapirs - Crispin Manners of Oakland Garage near me in Exeter. He put the clutch in and incidently found some seals had been put in the wrong way round, presuemably by the last person to repair/service the car - ie the garage that did the inspection. ahem ahem. I'd recommend Crispin to anyone .
Thanks Dom for the go ahead to 'name and shame' but as you say perhaps its best or simpler if we don't.
I understand 9M's arguments and he's dead right in some ways. I wouldn't blame any technician for not wanting to do inspections for fear of legal actions.
However inspections are obviously required by many car buyers and are perfectly legitimate tranasactions (who of you bought a house without a survey ?) so there will always be a market of specialist technicians who will do inspections. This should be for the right price of course, and that should reflect the legal risk borne, and technicians should undertake such inspections with their eyes open, figuratively speaking.... err and literally.
If 9M says its £300 for a 'proper' inspection then that's his price, others may charge less or more according to their circumstances, and
I may well have been tempted to pay that. I was certianly suprised at how cheap the inspection I got was (yes, with hindsight I should have queried this).
As you say its my choice to get an inspection and I thought I'd decided to get one. What annoys me is that I thought I was paying for such a service which I apparently didn't get. Yes the clutch was working in that functioned but it was very near the end of its life and is a high cost item to replace. I'd suggest that most people would have expected this to be mentioned in a inspection report. (The clutch was finally replaced within an inch of its life and I've only done a couple of hundred miles since I bought it).
I would sympathise with 9M if I were 'stuffing' a technican for an 'odd mistake' but I don't think I am. 1. I'm not contemplating legal action, 2. a £1000 clutch is not a small matter (well not for me anyway), 3 what else is an inspection report for if not for spotting issues like this that should be reflected in the price ?
As I will only name names on a 1 to 1 basis via email, I'm not sure my comments in this forum are in anyway different from a person to person chat where opinions are offered. I would agree that unfounded, inflated and anonymous accussations which are impossible to refute should be avoided, as I hope I have.
I've been very lucky and found a brilliant chap to do my services and reapirs - Crispin Manners of Oakland Garage near me in Exeter. He put the clutch in and incidently found some seals had been put in the wrong way round, presuemably by the last person to repair/service the car - ie the garage that did the inspection. ahem ahem. I'd recommend Crispin to anyone .
911 newbie...as Domster says bodyshops can sort this.what you can do is get tinted undercoat so that stone chips or light scuffs are less pronounced.
It is difficult when you buy a secondhand car,but the way i read it,if the clutch lasted from september until now,how bad was it? Very difficult for a specialist to put a time frame on it.Clutches can last a few track days or maybe 100k miles if mostly motorway driving.there is a certain satisfaction in getting the car correct & sorted yourself,so you know what you have.Hopefully you will now enjoy many trouble free miles ..
It is difficult when you buy a secondhand car,but the way i read it,if the clutch lasted from september until now,how bad was it? Very difficult for a specialist to put a time frame on it.Clutches can last a few track days or maybe 100k miles if mostly motorway driving.there is a certain satisfaction in getting the car correct & sorted yourself,so you know what you have.Hopefully you will now enjoy many trouble free miles ..
Just to clarify the situation, I will do whatever a customer asks me to do w.r.t. looking at a car, but I have NEVER come across a vender that will let me take the car to pieces or even take the wheels off in the name of an inspection. My usual rule is visual check all over & under on a 4 post lift, quick drive down the dual carriageway & a couple of roundabouts and voice an opinion, all for nothing.
Regarding the clutch, my RSR one lasts less than 2000 miles a time, it either works or slips, no in between, so it is totally impossible to predict the failure point. It usually slips first at the start of a critical timed run on a hillclimb somewhere, but that's the law of sod at work. Likewise with a standard clutch, if it is driving perfectly without slip but near its limit, the only way to provoke slip is to deliberately overheat it. So how do you explain to the vendor that you just trashed his clutch just to see if it was ok? I'm not defending your chosen guy, but you have to look at it from all points before letting the emotions of unexpected expenditure search for someone else to blame. I've experienced the same emotions in my youth after writing off a couple of cars, I looked for someone else to blame for hitting a tree in my dad's Ford, but the bottom line is that it was my fault that I was exceeding 30, not that it had worm and wheel steering & I could not get the lock off fast enough (sorry Dad, you liked that Corsair).
Anyway, my advice to all (future) would be purchasers is simple: leave the rose tinted glasses at home and always keep £1000 of the available spend to one side, as there is no such thing as a fault free used car. Thus after a year of ownership if you still have the grand you're lucky (so book a few trackdays), if you spent it on the car no worries 'cause you budgeted for it, but if you spend more than that & didn't see it coming, you bought the wrong car.
Regarding the clutch, my RSR one lasts less than 2000 miles a time, it either works or slips, no in between, so it is totally impossible to predict the failure point. It usually slips first at the start of a critical timed run on a hillclimb somewhere, but that's the law of sod at work. Likewise with a standard clutch, if it is driving perfectly without slip but near its limit, the only way to provoke slip is to deliberately overheat it. So how do you explain to the vendor that you just trashed his clutch just to see if it was ok? I'm not defending your chosen guy, but you have to look at it from all points before letting the emotions of unexpected expenditure search for someone else to blame. I've experienced the same emotions in my youth after writing off a couple of cars, I looked for someone else to blame for hitting a tree in my dad's Ford, but the bottom line is that it was my fault that I was exceeding 30, not that it had worm and wheel steering & I could not get the lock off fast enough (sorry Dad, you liked that Corsair).
Anyway, my advice to all (future) would be purchasers is simple: leave the rose tinted glasses at home and always keep £1000 of the available spend to one side, as there is no such thing as a fault free used car. Thus after a year of ownership if you still have the grand you're lucky (so book a few trackdays), if you spent it on the car no worries 'cause you budgeted for it, but if you spend more than that & didn't see it coming, you bought the wrong car.
911 Newbie - Crispin Manners - good choice - you might try Bert Gear for parts if you live in that part of the world. Has Crispin still got that 911 engined VW Caravelle?
On the subject of OPCs - my local OPC managed to put my front wheels on the wrong way round...and I had unidirectional tyres fitted...not so much as an apology...until I wrote to Porsche Cars GB....
As Colin says, most specialists tend to be experts in oine area - I know several that farm out their bodywork for example...
When it's all said and done, anyone who knows 915 gearboxed cars ought to be able to feel how tight the clutch is...as they wear they do get tighter. The failures in the clutch fork are also well known too. IMHO the specialist ought to have really spotted that the clutch was on its way out
On the subject of OPCs - my local OPC managed to put my front wheels on the wrong way round...and I had unidirectional tyres fitted...not so much as an apology...until I wrote to Porsche Cars GB....
As Colin says, most specialists tend to be experts in oine area - I know several that farm out their bodywork for example...
When it's all said and done, anyone who knows 915 gearboxed cars ought to be able to feel how tight the clutch is...as they wear they do get tighter. The failures in the clutch fork are also well known too. IMHO the specialist ought to have really spotted that the clutch was on its way out
A 911 engined Caravelle - I can imagine a few suprised stares when that went past. I didn't see it when I had a look round but there again I may just have blanked it out as boring. Nice collection of mainly older stuff but some newer stuff in various states lying around.
Where and what/who is Bert Gear ? Sounds usefull, thanks.
9M - the inspection you describe sounds perfect, a good visual and a road test, I'd not realy expect anything more. The chap who is servicing my car now agrees with you and me on this. I only wish I had had exactly this done !
When I picked up the car the clutch was slipping so badly a decent road test would have picked that up. However I wasn't allowed a decent road test myself (I know, I know, with hindsight I should have picked up on this). Unfortunately it also seems the mechanic doing the inspection didn't do that either, or at least didn't pass the information on in his report. This is strange as the chap who did the inspection also serviced the car for 2 or 3 years before hand and drove it regularly, including 20 miles the day of the inspection ! So you see, I find it difficult to see how he could have not known the clutch was going...
You are the techy and I am a novice, I admit that, however you seem to be saying that all clutches suddenly breakdown without any warning ? On a bog standard untracked C2 this seems suprising to me. Certainly the clutch has got progressively worse and worse in a nice steady manner since I've had it (and no, I've not screamed the nuts of it).
So in short I fully realise that no inspection can be perfect, and I'm not complaining about the minor stuff , but I would expect the stark bleeding obvious to be picked up in an inspection report by a professional with years of experience of servicing and driving this particular car. Shortly after I picked up the car I took it to the guy who does the servicing for me now who reported to me the clutch was knackered and had little life left.
I don't really want moan and moan about this (who wants to listen ?). I'm not tarring all mechanics with the same brush either, some are fantastic. I just wanted to pass on my experiences of getting somewhat shafted on an inspection to others. If only so I find out how not to get stuffed agin.
I also never went into the purchasing of the car with 'rose tinted glasses on' either. I'm assuming you didn't mean this to come across as condescending. If I was a plonker just bursting to buy the first one I could lay my hands on I wouldn't have asked for an inspection in the first place.
Where and what/who is Bert Gear ? Sounds usefull, thanks.
9M - the inspection you describe sounds perfect, a good visual and a road test, I'd not realy expect anything more. The chap who is servicing my car now agrees with you and me on this. I only wish I had had exactly this done !
When I picked up the car the clutch was slipping so badly a decent road test would have picked that up. However I wasn't allowed a decent road test myself (I know, I know, with hindsight I should have picked up on this). Unfortunately it also seems the mechanic doing the inspection didn't do that either, or at least didn't pass the information on in his report. This is strange as the chap who did the inspection also serviced the car for 2 or 3 years before hand and drove it regularly, including 20 miles the day of the inspection ! So you see, I find it difficult to see how he could have not known the clutch was going...
You are the techy and I am a novice, I admit that, however you seem to be saying that all clutches suddenly breakdown without any warning ? On a bog standard untracked C2 this seems suprising to me. Certainly the clutch has got progressively worse and worse in a nice steady manner since I've had it (and no, I've not screamed the nuts of it).
So in short I fully realise that no inspection can be perfect, and I'm not complaining about the minor stuff , but I would expect the stark bleeding obvious to be picked up in an inspection report by a professional with years of experience of servicing and driving this particular car. Shortly after I picked up the car I took it to the guy who does the servicing for me now who reported to me the clutch was knackered and had little life left.
I don't really want moan and moan about this (who wants to listen ?). I'm not tarring all mechanics with the same brush either, some are fantastic. I just wanted to pass on my experiences of getting somewhat shafted on an inspection to others. If only so I find out how not to get stuffed agin.
I also never went into the purchasing of the car with 'rose tinted glasses on' either. I'm assuming you didn't mean this to come across as condescending. If I was a plonker just bursting to buy the first one I could lay my hands on I wouldn't have asked for an inspection in the first place.
911newbie said:This is strange as the chap who did the inspection also serviced the car for 2 or 3 years before hand and drove it regularly, including 20 miles the day of the inspection ! So you see, I find it difficult to see how he could have not known the clutch was going...
Ahhh, therein lies the problem!
He wasn't very impartial. I bet he would have sworn it was a minter, as he bloody well worked on it himself...
Thanks for your comments 911newbie. Both you and 9M have bought up some good points, and I'm sure Colin wasn't meaning to sound condescending - just put the other point of view across. And fair play to both of you.
I think the moral of the story is to get an independent Porsche expert who you trust - or who someone you trust recommends - to give as good and accurate an appraisal as he can. And then hope he does you proud, as redress will be difficult. Even those AA reports have a lot of small print, I'd guess.
However, any inspection is likely to be better than none at all, if only because it should help you negotiate having a professional tyre kicker with you. And anything the inspector does find will be a bonus, and probably worth his fee alone.
As I said with Ray Northway doing a post purchase inspection on one of my cars, he pointed out a number of items I didn't know about (including spotting a timing belt problem) the car in a short space of time, but failed on what I considered to be quite an obvious point later (the panel work was pretty obvious, not a factory-alike pro job). However, I never felt the need to complain because overall he had done OK. It sounds like you may have more of a complaint with your guy, if the clutch was that far gone.
Now I am lucky enough to know a really good Porsche technician that I would trust to do an inspection and would give him the nod over Ray. I'm not saying that Ray's bad, just that some other techs deserve a chance to prove themselves to be better...
ATB
Dom
Given the facts now, it is hard to come to any other conclusion that it was a cover-up job on the clutch, although 0/10 for not clogging it yourself & finding out the easy way, but don't cut yourself up it's not worth it, what's done is done.
I did not mean to be condescending to you, or indeed think that you were a plonker. Dom's right, I was just playing the part of Devil's Advocate (it's nice to be a tw*t sometimes) to provoke alternative points of view.
Regarding the clutch failing, yes, they work fine for 000's of miles and then start to slip. From this point on if you hammer it, it will fail in a few miles, or if you nurse it you can go for another 1000, but as you say, once slipping it just gets worth. But the bottom line is that if there is no slip at the peak torque rpm of the engine in 4th or 5th, there is no way to effectively judge the life until it finally lets go. OK, 915 clutches do go heavier with wear, but this has no relevance to your C2.
I did not mean to be condescending to you, or indeed think that you were a plonker. Dom's right, I was just playing the part of Devil's Advocate (it's nice to be a tw*t sometimes) to provoke alternative points of view.
Regarding the clutch failing, yes, they work fine for 000's of miles and then start to slip. From this point on if you hammer it, it will fail in a few miles, or if you nurse it you can go for another 1000, but as you say, once slipping it just gets worth. But the bottom line is that if there is no slip at the peak torque rpm of the engine in 4th or 5th, there is no way to effectively judge the life until it finally lets go. OK, 915 clutches do go heavier with wear, but this has no relevance to your C2.
I think Colin brings up a useful point about clutches in general. They are not simple to diagnose or condemn. Whats acceptable to one is not to another.The guy who nurses his clutch (puts up with it) and gets a few thousand miles more out of it may be quite happy to do so. There are others to whom this is nackered clutch and needs replacing. There is a fair bit of grey area in between.Obviously if it's slipping like buggery then it's knackered but life's never quite so easy.
As reguards your 2000 mile clutch life
Colin may I suggest a few less revs in the interest of longevity
As reguards your 2000 mile clutch life
Colin may I suggest a few less revs in the interest of longevity Gassing Station | Porsche General | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff