E85 104 octane fuel... the future!
Discussion
Just been doing some work for Saab regarding their E85 bioethanol fuel cars... switchable petrol models, like LPG, except you don't even need a different fuel tank fitted. Carbon neutral, so good for the environment yada yada, but the best thing is:
104 Octane!!!!
If Porsche do a biofuel 997 Turbo, surely it would do 540-550bhp out of the box instead of 480bhp?
Normally I'm a sceptic when it comes to this green fuel stuff, but you can get E85 (in some Morrisons) for 3p a litre less than normal 95 RON unleaded and it's racing fuel in octane terms. How long before supercars start going bionic?
104 Octane!!!!
If Porsche do a biofuel 997 Turbo, surely it would do 540-550bhp out of the box instead of 480bhp?
Normally I'm a sceptic when it comes to this green fuel stuff, but you can get E85 (in some Morrisons) for 3p a litre less than normal 95 RON unleaded and it's racing fuel in octane terms. How long before supercars start going bionic?
Not got that info as I've been working from a press pack that just gives an overview, then rabbits on about the environment and performance. I'll try and find more out. The engine certainly adjusts mapping for the extra RON when you fill up with E85, giving you something like 20% more power in turbo engines.
That's why Saab love it - almost everything's turbocharged these days, so big gains to be had.
In Swededn, 85% of Saabs sold are biofuel-switchable... problem we have over here is only a few Morrisons are selling it. But it doesn't need different pumps, it's like petrol just biomass ethanol fuel made from sugar beet or whatever.
Wonder if cars can be retro converted or whether compression ratios have to change etc.?
That's why Saab love it - almost everything's turbocharged these days, so big gains to be had.
In Swededn, 85% of Saabs sold are biofuel-switchable... problem we have over here is only a few Morrisons are selling it. But it doesn't need different pumps, it's like petrol just biomass ethanol fuel made from sugar beet or whatever.
Wonder if cars can be retro converted or whether compression ratios have to change etc.?
looked at one off these as company car, 3% discount on tax as it is green, after discussing it with saab, threr was no downside, put petrol in same as petrol car, put bio in and het presto 20% power hike, all over the range, 150 goes to 180 , aero 250 goes to 300bhp, it's getting there!!!
Only downside was residules have still to prove themself, but its a company car so who cares.
Only downside was residules have still to prove themself, but its a company car so who cares.
From wiki:
"Ethanol engines need a cold-starting system to ensure sufficient vaporization for temperatures below 13 °C (55 °F) to maximize combustion and minimize uncombusted nonvaporized ethanol. On the other hand, if 10 to 30% ethanol is mixed with gasoline, no engine modification is typically needed. Many modern cars can run on these mixtures very reliably."
The E85 is 85% ethanol, 15% petrol. They are doing an E95 or something as well... and 100% ethanol is 129 RON so you do the maths
Pure rocket fuel.
The environmental question is interesting. When the fuel is burned, the CO2 produced equals the amount of CO2 consumed by the crop during growth = carbon neutral as not burning fossilised remnants + no reliance on oil, which will run out at some point and is getting pricier by the day. However, as you say, large tracts of land are needed to grow it on. Not sure how many fields to a gallon you get?
"Ethanol engines need a cold-starting system to ensure sufficient vaporization for temperatures below 13 °C (55 °F) to maximize combustion and minimize uncombusted nonvaporized ethanol. On the other hand, if 10 to 30% ethanol is mixed with gasoline, no engine modification is typically needed. Many modern cars can run on these mixtures very reliably."
The E85 is 85% ethanol, 15% petrol. They are doing an E95 or something as well... and 100% ethanol is 129 RON so you do the maths
Pure rocket fuel. The environmental question is interesting. When the fuel is burned, the CO2 produced equals the amount of CO2 consumed by the crop during growth = carbon neutral as not burning fossilised remnants + no reliance on oil, which will run out at some point and is getting pricier by the day. However, as you say, large tracts of land are needed to grow it on. Not sure how many fields to a gallon you get?
Ethanol is already partly oxygenated so has lower calorific value. Good octane (anti-knock) rating though, so can be piled in with turbo engines for big power.
More fuel is required per unit mass of air, so you'll be running richer mixtures on the ethanol, and thus get lower MPG. Should be cleaner than petrol though (IIRC it burns at a lower temperature (?) which will reduce NOx emissions)
Energy independence from Middle East oil is a nice dream / holy grail but there isn't enough land to produce enough ethanol from crop sources in the UK, unfortunately...
More fuel is required per unit mass of air, so you'll be running richer mixtures on the ethanol, and thus get lower MPG. Should be cleaner than petrol though (IIRC it burns at a lower temperature (?) which will reduce NOx emissions)
Energy independence from Middle East oil is a nice dream / holy grail but there isn't enough land to produce enough ethanol from crop sources in the UK, unfortunately...
Cheers for that.
More research:
- it seems mpg is about 10% down on petrol
- we'd probably have to import ethanol made from the states or somewhere with more wheat fields etc. as you quite correctly say that UK farming couldn't cope with massive mainstream demand
- apart from cold start system, only problem seems to be making sure the ethanol doesn't degrade compnents in the fuiel system; metals apart from magnesium seem to be fine, but it is such a corrosive and aggressive thinner that it could melt certain components. Modern fuel systems should be able to cope but old carbs with cork floats or whatever get fecked
- compression ratio should ideally be higher, as you can maximise power from ethanol this way; means a biopower car could be more lethargic on petrol if this is lowered, but turbo cars always lethargic off bosst for this reason
More research:
- it seems mpg is about 10% down on petrol
- we'd probably have to import ethanol made from the states or somewhere with more wheat fields etc. as you quite correctly say that UK farming couldn't cope with massive mainstream demand
- apart from cold start system, only problem seems to be making sure the ethanol doesn't degrade compnents in the fuiel system; metals apart from magnesium seem to be fine, but it is such a corrosive and aggressive thinner that it could melt certain components. Modern fuel systems should be able to cope but old carbs with cork floats or whatever get fecked
- compression ratio should ideally be higher, as you can maximise power from ethanol this way; means a biopower car could be more lethargic on petrol if this is lowered, but turbo cars always lethargic off bosst for this reason
ChrisW. said:
Oil seed rape, sugar beet, grain, --- this is where we really harness the power of the sun and enjoy guilt free motoring.
Nice dream... biodiesel gets the closest to this, however as you'd guess, neither sugar beet nor grain produce ethanol. It has to be fermented out of the sugars with yeast.
This is a shockingly inefficient process so you'll create a load of waste and pollutants to get this ethanol. In industry, they make ethanol by hydrolysing ethene - it's cheaper and more efficient to get ethanol from an oil light fraction than use natural processes.
If anything, we'd be better off genetically engineering algae to produce combustible fuels directly from sunlight (there's one that generates hydrogen) or engineering super-yeasts that anaerobically respire more efficiently to get ethanol. It isn't currently a economically viable process though - Brazil tried it politically to reduce dependence on foreign oil for their cars (most of the E85 research started there), but it became too expensive against cheap petrol... make of that what you will!
cyberface said:
If anything, we'd be better off genetically engineering algae to produce combustible fuels directly from sunlight (there's one that generates hydrogen) or engineering super-yeasts that anaerobically respire more efficiently to get ethanol.
I'm off for a long lay down after that !!!!cyberface said:
but it became too expensive against cheap petrol... make of that what you will!
It only seems expensive because you can still get petrol. Once it runs out
it won't seem expensive anymore. Any company/ country that invests heavily in a petrol replacement now, will be reaping long term rewards in 30 years or so when the petrol does run out. Can you imagine the change in economic balance if 3rd World countries like Brazil were the pioneers.
diver944 said:
cyberface said:
but it became too expensive against cheap petrol... make of that what you will!
It only seems expensive because you can still get petrol. Once it runs out
it won't seem expensive anymore. Any company/ country that invests heavily in a petrol replacement now, will be reaping long term rewards in 30 years or so when the petrol does run out. Can you imagine the change in economic balance if 3rd World countries like Brazil were the pioneers.
....or the vast tracts of land that could be used in Africa........
What I was getting at was that ethanol production from grown carbohydrates is a stupidly inefficient process. It's produced by yeast when they're stressed under low-oxygen conditions - the yeast produce ethanol anaerobically in much the same way that our muscles produce lactic acid when overworked.
The ethanol is a poison, reduces the performance of the yeast and eventually kills it (that's why the strongest fermented alcoholic drinks are around 14-15%). It's not a happy steady-state byproduct of yeast respiration, they'd much rather produce CO2 and water like everything else.
If a chemical or fancy bioengineered process could be developed that produced 80+ % yields of ethanol from carbohydrates then we'd be in business. In many respects ethanol is a great fuel - it's stable, relatively non-toxic, liquid at room temperature and burns cleanly. However we need better methods of producing it from biological sources before it can be a petrol replacement.
Biodiesel, on the other hand, is a higher yield product and getting close to economic sense already (due to current taxation...). It's just a shame, I'd much rather have a 8000 rpm engine running on ethanol than a clattery diesel running on chip fat.
Any proper chemists here know of any better ways to make ethanol? I'd have thought that if there was anything high-yield then the Brazilians would have sussed it out by now.
The ethanol is a poison, reduces the performance of the yeast and eventually kills it (that's why the strongest fermented alcoholic drinks are around 14-15%). It's not a happy steady-state byproduct of yeast respiration, they'd much rather produce CO2 and water like everything else.
If a chemical or fancy bioengineered process could be developed that produced 80+ % yields of ethanol from carbohydrates then we'd be in business. In many respects ethanol is a great fuel - it's stable, relatively non-toxic, liquid at room temperature and burns cleanly. However we need better methods of producing it from biological sources before it can be a petrol replacement.
Biodiesel, on the other hand, is a higher yield product and getting close to economic sense already (due to current taxation...). It's just a shame, I'd much rather have a 8000 rpm engine running on ethanol than a clattery diesel running on chip fat.
Any proper chemists here know of any better ways to make ethanol? I'd have thought that if there was anything high-yield then the Brazilians would have sussed it out by now.
Gassing Station | Porsche General | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff