993 or Cerbera or P1 or Evo
Discussion
I'm trying to decide what car to go for next. I know the cars above are very different but that's my short list.
First the boring bits. I need 4 seats (well 2plus2 for 2 small children). Will use the car at weekends mostly but the wife will use a bit during the week (school run etc). I reckon on about 5 track days a year. Safety, reliability, depreciation are all important. Looking to spend around £30k for a 993 or Cerb, less for the P1 or Evo.
Plus, I want something with some spirit and character. Performance is v important but I want usable performance.
I have an Impreza Turbo currently and love it. The 993 seems like a logical choice, but what will it give me beyond the logical aspects? I've driven a MY95 and to be honest it wasn't faster than my Scoob. I could afford a MY96 but not a C4S/turbo etc.
Help me out here, I know this is a Porsche site, but what (relatively) impartial advice can you give me? This is my first post so go easy on me!
Thanks.
Jon
First the boring bits. I need 4 seats (well 2plus2 for 2 small children). Will use the car at weekends mostly but the wife will use a bit during the week (school run etc). I reckon on about 5 track days a year. Safety, reliability, depreciation are all important. Looking to spend around £30k for a 993 or Cerb, less for the P1 or Evo.
Plus, I want something with some spirit and character. Performance is v important but I want usable performance.
I have an Impreza Turbo currently and love it. The 993 seems like a logical choice, but what will it give me beyond the logical aspects? I've driven a MY95 and to be honest it wasn't faster than my Scoob. I could afford a MY96 but not a C4S/turbo etc.
Help me out here, I know this is a Porsche site, but what (relatively) impartial advice can you give me? This is my first post so go easy on me!
Thanks.
Jon
A naturally aspirated 993 isn't going to be faster than a Evo or STi type vehicle necessarily.
Chances are in a straight line the jap turbo stuff will be quicker up to legal speeds at least.
The thing is, i dind't buy my car to race the 4wd/turbo/jap/nutter crew. I appreciate those cars for their pace and usability, but they don't give me the same sort of driving pleasure as my 993 C4S. Getting it "right" in a 911 is a phenomenal experience, something to do with stringing together a series of curves, practising slow-in fast-out, feeling the tail tuck in and shove you out of the corner like the car just wants to go faster.
I think i'm a reasonable driver but i get so much pleasure from trying to drive the car as it WANTS to be driven, smoothly and quickly and with precision.
I've chased an Evo VII around a wet Castle Combe and there was nothing between us, the difference is the 993 was balletic whilst the Evo was brutal.
I don't know if that helps your decision, but i do think there two distinct schools here... the air-cooled 911 perfectionists and the effective and efficient Scooby/Evo/Skyline crowd.
On that note, have you driven a clean R33 Skyline GTR? If you like your Scooby you'll probably love one of those...
It's a hard life choosing between all these great cars isn't it?
VS
but the wife will use a bit during the week (school run etc). Safety, reliability, depreciation are all important.
...in that case, the Cerbie should be ruled out on ALL those counts. I'm not having a dig at TVR, but of your list - that's the one most likely to break down and in the event of a crash, you've only got a fibreglass shell around you. Do you want to risk your family in that way?
The Pistonheads community recently lost a valued member to a car crash (Harrigan) - I can't help feeling sometimes that he may not have lost his life if he hadn't been in a TVR.
Harrigan was driving a Chimaera which do not have the same protection as a Cerbera, if I remember correctly. However, out of respect for Harrigan and for legal reasons, we should keep speculation to a minimum and off forum.
That said, it is beyond dispute that some TVRs have limited crash protection. There are images in the public domain showing completely flattened Griffiths after a roll, I myself have flexed the A-pillar of a wedge with one finger, and seats have been bolted straight to fibreglass in the past. I believe that TVRs of a more modern vintage may be safer, but I would check this out. Remember that glassfibre is actually very good at absorbing impact energy. I would be more concerned about roll overs than impacts in older open top models.
Regarding the original choice, I would suggest that you could just about get a LHD 993 Turbo for 30k, or just over. This will do all you require. The standard 993s are great, but haven't got the outright grunt.
That said, it is beyond dispute that some TVRs have limited crash protection. There are images in the public domain showing completely flattened Griffiths after a roll, I myself have flexed the A-pillar of a wedge with one finger, and seats have been bolted straight to fibreglass in the past. I believe that TVRs of a more modern vintage may be safer, but I would check this out. Remember that glassfibre is actually very good at absorbing impact energy. I would be more concerned about roll overs than impacts in older open top models.
Regarding the original choice, I would suggest that you could just about get a LHD 993 Turbo for 30k, or just over. This will do all you require. The standard 993s are great, but haven't got the outright grunt.
clubsport said: I thought the Cerbera was the safest TVR shell structuraly with its integrated roll cage ?
...I believe that's true - however, if I had a wife and family I'd rather them be surrounded by Steel/Aluminium which doesn't disintegrate following big impacts. Also, the inherent tendency for TVR's to lose their back ends make it unsuitable for school transportation, IMHO.
>> Edited by argonaut on Tuesday 18th February 10:01
domster said: However, out of respect for Harrigan and for legal reasons, we should keep speculation to a minimum and off forum.
Regarding the original choice, I would suggest that you could just about get a LHD 993 Turbo for 30k, or just over. This will do all you require.
...agreed on both counts.
Seems low to me also...thing is i really do not beleive there is such a thing as a cheap Porsche.
Good lhd 993TT seem to be late £30's- as high as early £40's in some cases..rhd seem to start at low £40's - mid £50's. (S models apart).
These cars need to be maintained well to avoid problems if you get a poorly maintained / high mileage car,you may think you have a bargain.It may cost many £000's to get it up to scratch.i would always think it makes sense to buy the best car you can,as in spend as much as you can afford & get it checked out...if you buy a cheap one have the money ready if you need to put it right.
Good lhd 993TT seem to be late £30's- as high as early £40's in some cases..rhd seem to start at low £40's - mid £50's. (S models apart).
These cars need to be maintained well to avoid problems if you get a poorly maintained / high mileage car,you may think you have a bargain.It may cost many £000's to get it up to scratch.i would always think it makes sense to buy the best car you can,as in spend as much as you can afford & get it checked out...if you buy a cheap one have the money ready if you need to put it right.
30k is a realistic entry point for a 993TT, but I would not warrant the condition. Also, I stress that we are talking LHD, but I have owned many LHD cars and have never had a problem with driving on the 'wrong side' of the cockpit.
Okay, don't believe the 30k Turbo 4 exists? think again.
- There was a Turbo 4 in Evo in the classifieds for 33k a few months back. High miles if I remember, and slightly over, but remember that 30k is the entry point. Bit of bargaining may have seen a grand lopped off.
- The cheapest 993TT on mobile.de, is 36,500 euros, ie 24,500 quid. Now, that is guaranteed to be a dog and importation isn't what it used to be, so add a couple of grand on for the hassle and expense. But that is still very sub 30k.
- The cheapest one I would be tempted by came from these guys here:
http://home.mobile.de/YES-Automarkt
They have a cheeky 1995 model with 70k miles on the clock for 45900 eur which is £30,833
So yes they exist. You just have to hunt for them, and be wary that one or two will be cheap for a reason.
Remember that the Turbo 4 is unjustly undervalued compared to the RSs. Whilst a 993RS has fallen from 70k to about 35k in the last 7 years, a Turbo will have fallen from 90k to a similar amount. They will continue to fall, whereas the RSs may not, simply because of the limited production run of RSs and the cult following.
What are you guys waiting for? There's a 993TT for 25k out there
Okay, don't believe the 30k Turbo 4 exists? think again.
- There was a Turbo 4 in Evo in the classifieds for 33k a few months back. High miles if I remember, and slightly over, but remember that 30k is the entry point. Bit of bargaining may have seen a grand lopped off.
- The cheapest 993TT on mobile.de, is 36,500 euros, ie 24,500 quid. Now, that is guaranteed to be a dog and importation isn't what it used to be, so add a couple of grand on for the hassle and expense. But that is still very sub 30k.
- The cheapest one I would be tempted by came from these guys here:
http://home.mobile.de/YES-Automarkt
They have a cheeky 1995 model with 70k miles on the clock for 45900 eur which is £30,833
So yes they exist. You just have to hunt for them, and be wary that one or two will be cheap for a reason.
Remember that the Turbo 4 is unjustly undervalued compared to the RSs. Whilst a 993RS has fallen from 70k to about 35k in the last 7 years, a Turbo will have fallen from 90k to a similar amount. They will continue to fall, whereas the RSs may not, simply because of the limited production run of RSs and the cult following.
What are you guys waiting for? There's a 993TT for 25k out there
Dom,
You bugg*r! I'm gonna be spending the rest of today surfing mobile.de and checking my finances...
By the way, if you go to http://babelfish.altavista.com you can translate the mobile.de site (my German, she iz not zo hot).
VS
You bugg*r! I'm gonna be spending the rest of today surfing mobile.de and checking my finances...
By the way, if you go to http://babelfish.altavista.com you can translate the mobile.de site (my German, she iz not zo hot).
VS
Domster,on the current pricing.It seems that most of the 964 RS are over here & there is little difference in buying them in germany.where as there seem to be more opportunities in the 993 TT...I think for the most part people prefer to buy cars in the UK to save hassle.
if you bought in Germany with a service history,established the car here,as in registered & a few Uk specialist stamps,you could actually be on to a winner over a couple of years....if any on the site you saw were speed yellow.I think it may already be sold to Verysideways!
if you bought in Germany with a service history,established the car here,as in registered & a few Uk specialist stamps,you could actually be on to a winner over a couple of years....if any on the site you saw were speed yellow.I think it may already be sold to Verysideways!
argonaut said:
clubsport said: I thought the Cerbera was the safest TVR shell structuraly with its integrated roll cage ?
...I believe that's true - however, if I had a wife and family I'd rather them be surrounded by Steel/Aluminium which doesn't disintegrate following big impacts. Also, the inherent tendency for TVR's to lose their back ends make it unsuitable for school transportation, IMHO.
>> Edited by argonaut on Tuesday 18th February 10:01
This is not an argument which I particularly want to get in to, but fwiw, I do have a wife and child and I'm more than happy to have them as passengers in the cerb.
The fibre-glass does break on impact, but I also know that in doing so absorbs far more energy than the equivalent metal. Absorbed energy which isn't transmitted to the occupants.
The roll cage gives me more confidence with big impacts (or inversions) than I feel with my euro-box, which would be the other alternative. I also know that the cerb has side impact beams (which I believe earlier models [griff & chim] do not have), however rudimentary they may be. Otoh, I also know how tall HGV wheels are in relation to the cerb...
It's a bit academic until TVR submit their cars for appropriate crash tests, rather than relying on the Tuscan race series to test the overall chassis concept for crash worthiness.
I wouldn't argue with the reliability though; if my wife's relying on it whilst she's on her own I think the more "mainstream" the better. But then again, other marques break-down too. I'd probably get her a Lexus
I also think it's true that it's not the "TVR" which loses the back end; it's the driver. I also don't think it's helpful to start implicating specific marques in certain accidents and consequences. We can all point to a whole bunch of cars with similar characteristics.
Still, the original poster has one of life's better dilemmas to contend with.
Thanks everyone - keep 'em coming.
Verysideway's comments re why he likes driving the Porsche are great - I'd like that feeling and know what you mean about the brutal nature of the Scoob/Evo (although I find that impressive in it's own way....).
I tend to agree about the Cerb, although I've heard they are very strong as the fibreglass is good at absorbing a serious impact (will look a wreak afterwards). With family & kids active safety is as important as passive and so I do worry also about the back-end, no ABS etc.
LHD 993 Turbo sounds good, although for £30k (or so) I'd be wanting something in great condition and not run any risks of scraping the barrel to get a Turbo - not because it's LHD or an import, but simply because I don't know the cars well enough yet to pick the good one other than by luck and a good dealer/independent!
As I say, keep 'em coming please. Advice is good so far. The final cut is probably going to be towards the Porsche and the P1 (much more fluid and intuitive than the later STIs and the brutal Evos IMHO).
Thanks!
Jon
Verysideway's comments re why he likes driving the Porsche are great - I'd like that feeling and know what you mean about the brutal nature of the Scoob/Evo (although I find that impressive in it's own way....).
I tend to agree about the Cerb, although I've heard they are very strong as the fibreglass is good at absorbing a serious impact (will look a wreak afterwards). With family & kids active safety is as important as passive and so I do worry also about the back-end, no ABS etc.
LHD 993 Turbo sounds good, although for £30k (or so) I'd be wanting something in great condition and not run any risks of scraping the barrel to get a Turbo - not because it's LHD or an import, but simply because I don't know the cars well enough yet to pick the good one other than by luck and a good dealer/independent!
As I say, keep 'em coming please. Advice is good so far. The final cut is probably going to be towards the Porsche and the P1 (much more fluid and intuitive than the later STIs and the brutal Evos IMHO).
Thanks!
Jon
I've just had a very interesting phone call with HM Customs and Excise, and it seems that if the car is older than 6 months old and/or has more than 6oookm on it, then it's classed as "not new".
In this case, if you were to buy the car from germany and get it as a tax free export then you would be liable for VAT in this country at 17.5%.
However, if you paid VAT (or bought the car from a private individual) in Germany then you would NOT be liable to pay VAT in this country.
Since VAT appears to be 16% (according to www.911-rs.de) over there then it wouls be silly to claim back that 16% and then pay 17.5% here.
Now all i have to do is decide between a 993RS and a 993TT. I know the RS will be cheaper to run and better for depreciation, but the TT will be cheaper to buy and more comfortable... and that boost is sooooo addictive!
VS
Edited to add:
That 24,500 pound 993TT has engine damage, that's why it's so cheap.
>> Edited by verysideways on Tuesday 18th February 14:00
In this case, if you were to buy the car from germany and get it as a tax free export then you would be liable for VAT in this country at 17.5%.
However, if you paid VAT (or bought the car from a private individual) in Germany then you would NOT be liable to pay VAT in this country.
Since VAT appears to be 16% (according to www.911-rs.de) over there then it wouls be silly to claim back that 16% and then pay 17.5% here.
Now all i have to do is decide between a 993RS and a 993TT. I know the RS will be cheaper to run and better for depreciation, but the TT will be cheaper to buy and more comfortable... and that boost is sooooo addictive!
VS
Edited to add:
That 24,500 pound 993TT has engine damage, that's why it's so cheap.
>> Edited by verysideways on Tuesday 18th February 14:00
Pete, well done on spotting why the 993tt is so cheap... that said, 911 engines are pretty easy to come by, and if you were going to tune it to 500bhp then most internals would be ripped out anyway. As I said, at 24,500 it will be a dog, but I reckon on fair examples being found in Germany for 30k. Best to treat your friendly Porsche tech to a free holiday in the fatherland for inspection purposes however, and have more than one lined up. Look at say three, then take your pick. Having a grand or two above the 30k budget would pay dividends here.
Clubsport - you are right about the pricing of RSs over the water. That is why I didn't get one abroad, despite having imported a couple of cars before. It makes far more sense to get a LHD car in the UK, unless there are potentially massive savings. That is why the Evo classifieds 993tt at 33k was very good value. It may have cost 30k in Germany, but importing would cost another 2k all in, I should guestimate. Get him down a grand and you've got a continental car without the hassle.
993tts are good value in Germany at the moment. RSs aren't. It's that simple.
Re the TVR safety post, I quite agree that the Cerb is pretty safe. However, suspension and drivetrain characteristics will drastically affect the tail-happiness of the car. It isn't just the driver. That is why driving a Lotus Carlton in the snow was less dangerous to me than driving a 964RS in the wet... the Lotus had power steering, soggy suspension and an engine at the front, which made breakaway a lot easier to contain. I have witnessed a Cerb spin in virtually a straight line going up through the gears - as did many others recently. I would say that the extreme power of the car, plus the characteristics of the limited slip diff etc would have conspired against the driver more than if he was in an MG midget. Mixture of car AND driver, I'd suggest.
Clubsport - you are right about the pricing of RSs over the water. That is why I didn't get one abroad, despite having imported a couple of cars before. It makes far more sense to get a LHD car in the UK, unless there are potentially massive savings. That is why the Evo classifieds 993tt at 33k was very good value. It may have cost 30k in Germany, but importing would cost another 2k all in, I should guestimate. Get him down a grand and you've got a continental car without the hassle.
993tts are good value in Germany at the moment. RSs aren't. It's that simple.
Re the TVR safety post, I quite agree that the Cerb is pretty safe. However, suspension and drivetrain characteristics will drastically affect the tail-happiness of the car. It isn't just the driver. That is why driving a Lotus Carlton in the snow was less dangerous to me than driving a 964RS in the wet... the Lotus had power steering, soggy suspension and an engine at the front, which made breakaway a lot easier to contain. I have witnessed a Cerb spin in virtually a straight line going up through the gears - as did many others recently. I would say that the extreme power of the car, plus the characteristics of the limited slip diff etc would have conspired against the driver more than if he was in an MG midget. Mixture of car AND driver, I'd suggest.
Jon101, I may be able to put you in touch with a man who's sellnig a nice P1 - private sale, so no PXs
Versideways - if you buy a used car from the continent, VAT would/should have been paid on it at that country's prevailing rate at the time. Under European trade law if you imported it into the UK, no VAT would be payable over here, regardles of any differential in the VAT rates. That's why it can be cheaper to order new cars from certain countries (eg Land Rovers from Spain ISTR) where the prevailing VAT rate (and sometimes new car tax too) is lower than the UK's ripoff rate. I also believe that if you buy a used car from the Channel Isles, VAT is assessed on its value as a used car too(assuming no VAT was paid on it in the first place).
993 TT at £25,000 - what price my grandmother?
Versideways - if you buy a used car from the continent, VAT would/should have been paid on it at that country's prevailing rate at the time. Under European trade law if you imported it into the UK, no VAT would be payable over here, regardles of any differential in the VAT rates. That's why it can be cheaper to order new cars from certain countries (eg Land Rovers from Spain ISTR) where the prevailing VAT rate (and sometimes new car tax too) is lower than the UK's ripoff rate. I also believe that if you buy a used car from the Channel Isles, VAT is assessed on its value as a used car too(assuming no VAT was paid on it in the first place).
993 TT at £25,000 - what price my grandmother?
I know this might not help (especially since the conversation is turning against the Cerb!) but when I chose my cars, safety was the primary concern to me, with performance a close second. Thats why I chose the Cerb for its integral roll cage - there aren't many of those around in production cars, and a 5-series quite simply cos its 'big'.
Oh, and I should mention .. the M5 is currently back at the dealers for misc. engine problems, and the Cerb is performing duties as the school-run car. I can almost 'feel' the smug grin on the front of the Cerb when I drive it!
I guess that's another alternative - my M5 was £30K, by the way. It's nowhere near as raw as the Cerb, but you'd better believe it's rapid when it gets going!
Oh, and I should mention .. the M5 is currently back at the dealers for misc. engine problems, and the Cerb is performing duties as the school-run car. I can almost 'feel' the smug grin on the front of the Cerb when I drive it!
I guess that's another alternative - my M5 was £30K, by the way. It's nowhere near as raw as the Cerb, but you'd better believe it's rapid when it gets going!
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