If Porsche's are "everyday cars".......
Discussion
rumplestiltskin said:
....how come Glasses guide has the average mileage for an 02 996 at 22,000 ?
Thats 5,500 miles a year ! Hardly an "everyday" milage, I would say thats more like pampered Ferrari mileage.
My brother in the trade was giving me prices for my 996TT
R.
Thats 5,500 miles a year ! Hardly an "everyday" milage, I would say thats more like pampered Ferrari mileage.
My brother in the trade was giving me prices for my 996TT
R.
That's still 20 miles a working day.. given the typical demographic of owner will be a City type, that's about right for a daily commute
J
I wondered how long it would be before anyone else noticed this odd discrepancy.
It's even stranger when you look in the Glass's guide, modern classics, 1991 to 1998 that has a 95M 993 C2 at 93K miles and a 95M 993 C4 at 47K (and similar anomalies abound). 98S 996 is rated at 72K in the classic book but a 99S at 35K in the "on screen" version that operates from 99 onwards.
Does this mean that in a year the average car suddenly does 35K when it is 8 years old? - of course not.
This first happened 6 years ago when the on screen computer version suddenly halved the original mileages for Porsche's but didn't change the prices.
We corresponded with Glass's at the time and were never very happy with the answers that varied between "we were originally wrong about the original average mileage" and that there was a "computer glitch".
We also corresponded when this strange sudden huge increase in mileage appeared between the more modern computerised version and the "classic" book - although the differences now appear actually in the book with cars of similar age having half (or double) the mileage associated with them (depending upon whatever they felt like I suppose).
You could argue that a C4 owner drives half the mileage of a C2 owner but then even in the C2 993 listing a Targa is rated at half the mileage of a Coupe or a Convertible.
We have always considered this to be an error and that those rated at half the mileage should have the mileages doubled to get a more realistic valuation - but the latest we heard from Glass's was that they are reflecting the market and that their prices reflect the mileage listed.
What I think they mean is that the price they offer is for the mileage they list even if it changes.
This doesn't seem right to me when they show (for example) a 96N 993 Targa (with half the mileage of 44K) as worth only £1080 more than a coupe of the same year (but having covered 87K). 43K less mileage is worth a lot more than a grand to anyone - don't you agree.
So we are left with an anomaly - are Glass's guide still themselves carrying an error that we first pointed out to them on 9th August 2000 (and the latest corespondence on this subject being 2nd June 2005) or do their prices truly reflect the market.
Out of interest it has also been explained to us that "book" prices are based on "auction prices" whereas I have not seen a 993 at auction in years and it is clear to me a sliding scale applies (perhaps this is why they are more accurste with more modern cars that do go to auction). Also - even recent figures cast some doubt upon the valuations - a Cayenne (for example)seems to have a £2500 premium for tiptronic - regardless of how old it is - when surely the difference will reduce with age.
Having said all this - we still find Glass's guide the most accurate on the market for quality Porsche's with FSH etc (others have lower valuations but seem to cover the rubbish cars advertised (poor colours, damaged, dodgy history etc) as well - so we have learned to apply a factor to different results - to make more sense to us. We also run our own system that traces advertised prices - and this often agrees with Glass's guide in the first 5-7 years but then we cannot use our system to always trace mileage variations as well (as they are not always advertised). The problem with this is that many owners over value their cars and then advertise them but don't sell them and this leads to others following suit - so that often almost the whole market is being misled and unrealistic. Furthermore sudden changes in the market take several months to filter through to most guides and at the end of the day a car is worth what it will sell for.
It is a very difficult figure to work out and is very time consuming - apart from which if it sells or not seems the best guide but needs lengthy phone calls to even find out and then how much did it actually sell for below the asking price. This is why your "trader" often has a better idea of values than anyone else (if he gets it all wrong it costs him dear - too expensive they don't sell offer too little and you don't get any cars in stock to sell) even though the prices he may offer often seem too low to the owner.
It is a very expensive business to find good cars and properly prepare them for sale and finance them, pay the Vat and offer meanignful after sales support - so dealers need a reasonable margin to survive.
As we have published before - we believe that used Porsche prices will in future have more depreciation attached to them than in the past - but they are still brilliant cars and in our view worth every penny they cost! Enjoying your life doesn't come cheap and for some of us a Porsche provides something very special and thrilling that is usually worth the cost - its just that in the past cars like 944's actually often cost less to run than a "sierra" (just used as an example) and still gave you more of a thrill so was a bargain or you could keep a 3.2 Carerra and sell it for more than you paid for it 5 years later and now - it seems - more equality of costs is going to be the norm - but still surely a bargain?
Baz Hartech
It's even stranger when you look in the Glass's guide, modern classics, 1991 to 1998 that has a 95M 993 C2 at 93K miles and a 95M 993 C4 at 47K (and similar anomalies abound). 98S 996 is rated at 72K in the classic book but a 99S at 35K in the "on screen" version that operates from 99 onwards.
Does this mean that in a year the average car suddenly does 35K when it is 8 years old? - of course not.
This first happened 6 years ago when the on screen computer version suddenly halved the original mileages for Porsche's but didn't change the prices.
We corresponded with Glass's at the time and were never very happy with the answers that varied between "we were originally wrong about the original average mileage" and that there was a "computer glitch".
We also corresponded when this strange sudden huge increase in mileage appeared between the more modern computerised version and the "classic" book - although the differences now appear actually in the book with cars of similar age having half (or double) the mileage associated with them (depending upon whatever they felt like I suppose).
You could argue that a C4 owner drives half the mileage of a C2 owner but then even in the C2 993 listing a Targa is rated at half the mileage of a Coupe or a Convertible.
We have always considered this to be an error and that those rated at half the mileage should have the mileages doubled to get a more realistic valuation - but the latest we heard from Glass's was that they are reflecting the market and that their prices reflect the mileage listed.
What I think they mean is that the price they offer is for the mileage they list even if it changes.
This doesn't seem right to me when they show (for example) a 96N 993 Targa (with half the mileage of 44K) as worth only £1080 more than a coupe of the same year (but having covered 87K). 43K less mileage is worth a lot more than a grand to anyone - don't you agree.
So we are left with an anomaly - are Glass's guide still themselves carrying an error that we first pointed out to them on 9th August 2000 (and the latest corespondence on this subject being 2nd June 2005) or do their prices truly reflect the market.
Out of interest it has also been explained to us that "book" prices are based on "auction prices" whereas I have not seen a 993 at auction in years and it is clear to me a sliding scale applies (perhaps this is why they are more accurste with more modern cars that do go to auction). Also - even recent figures cast some doubt upon the valuations - a Cayenne (for example)seems to have a £2500 premium for tiptronic - regardless of how old it is - when surely the difference will reduce with age.
Having said all this - we still find Glass's guide the most accurate on the market for quality Porsche's with FSH etc (others have lower valuations but seem to cover the rubbish cars advertised (poor colours, damaged, dodgy history etc) as well - so we have learned to apply a factor to different results - to make more sense to us. We also run our own system that traces advertised prices - and this often agrees with Glass's guide in the first 5-7 years but then we cannot use our system to always trace mileage variations as well (as they are not always advertised). The problem with this is that many owners over value their cars and then advertise them but don't sell them and this leads to others following suit - so that often almost the whole market is being misled and unrealistic. Furthermore sudden changes in the market take several months to filter through to most guides and at the end of the day a car is worth what it will sell for.
It is a very difficult figure to work out and is very time consuming - apart from which if it sells or not seems the best guide but needs lengthy phone calls to even find out and then how much did it actually sell for below the asking price. This is why your "trader" often has a better idea of values than anyone else (if he gets it all wrong it costs him dear - too expensive they don't sell offer too little and you don't get any cars in stock to sell) even though the prices he may offer often seem too low to the owner.
It is a very expensive business to find good cars and properly prepare them for sale and finance them, pay the Vat and offer meanignful after sales support - so dealers need a reasonable margin to survive.
As we have published before - we believe that used Porsche prices will in future have more depreciation attached to them than in the past - but they are still brilliant cars and in our view worth every penny they cost! Enjoying your life doesn't come cheap and for some of us a Porsche provides something very special and thrilling that is usually worth the cost - its just that in the past cars like 944's actually often cost less to run than a "sierra" (just used as an example) and still gave you more of a thrill so was a bargain or you could keep a 3.2 Carerra and sell it for more than you paid for it 5 years later and now - it seems - more equality of costs is going to be the norm - but still surely a bargain?
Baz Hartech
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