993 vs. 111S Elise handling problem?

[call_me_tom]

After many years of various Lotus Elise cars, I've just taken the plunge and bought a 60K mileage 993 C4. I've fitted new conti-sport tyres.

Thing is it doesn't seem to handle. The front turn-in seems vague and imprecise. Mid-corner, the front of car doesn't feel particularly planted either.

So am feeling reluctant to hustle the car round corners - and probably now driving slower than I do in the wife's Ford Focus.

I seem to remember when driving a C2 that the car felt much sharper and confident.

Is this me, the car, or do they all do that? Any experience or advice appreciated.

[kayc]

call_me_tom said:

After many years of various Lotus Elise cars, I've just taken the plunge and bought a 60K mileage 993 C4. I've fitted new conti-sport tyres.

Thing is it doesn't seem to handle. The front turn-in seems vague and imprecise. Mid-corner, the front of car doesn't feel particularly planted either.

So am feeling reluctant to hustle the car round corners - and probably now driving slower than I do in the wife's Ford Focus.

I seem to remember when driving a C2 that the car felt much sharper and confident.

Is this me, the car, or do they all do that? Any experience or advice appreciated.

Its a993 chief..they are all over the place..its like driving a Sainsburys trolley with 250+ bhp...i put up with mine for 3 months and ditched it as i thought it unsafe at anything above 100mph+Probably the most disappointing so-called performance car i have owned.Did you not drive it first?

[kennyboy]

A 993 Carrera - any variant, will handle like a dream IF:

1. The shocks are in good condition
2. The geometry is set up correctly and hasn't gradually become out of align.

Sadly the standard shocks do wear quickly and the geometry does go out of align itself, they need regularly resetting.

If the shocks are worn and/or the geometry isn't set right it will handle anything from erratically to dangerously...

Tyres - well that's another story.

Then again it will never turn in like an Elise will it....you also have to realise it's a 911.

Get yourself on to PCGB forum or Rennlist, lots of info about this on there.

[steve rance]

call_me_tom said:

After many years of various Lotus Elise cars, I've just taken the plunge and bought a 60K mileage 993 C4. I've fitted new conti-sport tyres.

Thing is it doesn't seem to handle. The front turn-in seems vague and imprecise. Mid-corner, the front of car doesn't feel particularly planted either.

So am feeling reluctant to hustle the car round corners - and probably now driving slower than I do in the wife's Ford Focus.

I seem to remember when driving a C2 that the car felt much sharper and confident.

Is this me, the car, or do they all do that? Any experience or advice appreciated.

I spent a few years demonstrating elise MK1's at various race tracks. I think I know what your problem is. The mid engined nature of the elise allows you to carry a lot of entry speed into the corner. The failing that I found on the early cars was too much body roll at the rear causing a few moments on the exits of faster corners. The driving style needed in a 911 is completely different. If you carry a lot of speed in and enter the corner under power, the nose will lift and the car will understeer off the apex, you will need to lift, causing the rear to go light and you will then oversteer. Is that what is happening?

Steve R

[james_j]

Re the 993's handling.

I suggest getting the geometry checked and if necessary adjusted. Use a Porsche specialist.

It's a big mistake to judge the handling of one of these cars if the tracking is out.

[PH5121]

I have driven my dads 993 T4 and it feels vague compared to my 964 c2 (964 is lowered with neggy camber), I put this down to inherent understeer with the 4wd transmission.
As others have said, if properly set up the car should be great.

[Silver993tt]

I have no problems with my 993 turbo. I had the alignment done over here in Germany and it's stable at any speed up. In the twisties, you have to keep the power on if you have the 4wd.

[wildoliver]

kayc said:

Its a993 chief..they are all over the place..its like driving a Sainsburys trolley with 250+ bhp...i put up with mine for 3 months and ditched it as i thought it unsafe at anything above 100mph+Probably the most disappointing so-called performance car i have owned.Did you not drive it first?

I'm sorry but to come out with that comment you have either not driven a good 993 (I.E. yours had alignment/Geometry issues) or you can't drive properly, as if you are a good driver the 993 and particularly earlier cars offer a very precise drive with great weight transfer properties you can use to your benefit which are sadly slightly dulled in the 996 onwards.

However from your comment about 100mph plus I assume your not talking about twisty road handling more high speed cornering / stability so geometry does look a more likely explanation!

[grisewos]

I also went from an Elise to a 993 C4 and was a bit disappointed at first but, as comments above have said, you need to modify your driving style. Slow in fast out is definitely the way to go (and believe me with all that extra grunt and traction the 'fast out' can be very fast indeed).

Of course the new rubber won't be helping either, it's bound to feel a bit slick until you've scrubbed the tyres slightly.

You'll never be able to chuck it around like an Elise but give it a few weeks and hopefully you'll begin to trust the handling more - it really can corner seriously quickly and on a bumpy B-road definitely feels more planted than an Elise.

Edited by grisewos on Tuesday 5th September 16:02

[Ruxpin]

It is a very different car to the elise so will take some getting used to / adjustment of driving technique.

However it could also be a setup / worn out shocks, joints, bushes etc issue.

Having sampled MOD500's 993tt over the past year or so the transformation in handling he has achieved through fitting of new suspension components, geo etc has been incredible.

Originally it was a bit 'vague' at turn in but in its most recent outing to Bruntingthorpe the turn in was much improved along with general body control. The car feels much more alive and responsive. The overall experience is much improved and could be what you are looking for.

[pheliX]

993 OEM shocks seem to be pretty rubbish at lasting more than 4-5 years and/or 30K miles. I had similar issues with my 993tt when I bought it two+ years ago; it was not confidence inspiring at all when pushing on. Turn in was imprecise and the steering seemed to need one or more mid-bend corrections before the car was willing to track a constant radius arc. And bumps and undulations mid-bend just started the settling down process all over again. New Bilstein HD's transformed the handling and improved the ride at the same time. Mind you a 993 is a heavy car when compared to an Elise so it's not really a fair comparison. But that weight makes good shocks an absolute must.

[kayc]

wildoliver said:

kayc said:

Its a993 chief..they are all over the place..its like driving a Sainsburys trolley with 250+ bhp...i put up with mine for 3 months and ditched it as i thought it unsafe at anything above 100mph+Probably the most disappointing so-called performance car i have owned.Did you not drive it first?

I'm sorry but to come out with that comment you have either not driven a good 993 (I.E. yours had alignment/Geometry issues) or you can't drive properly, as if you are a good driver the 993 and particularly earlier cars offer a very precise drive with great weight transfer properties you can use to your benefit which are sadly slightly dulled in the 996 onwards.

However from your comment about 100mph plus I assume your not talking about twisty road handling more high speed cornering / stability so geometry does look a more likely explanation!

Owned one 993 c2s and driven 2 993 turbos..all felt the same ..vague ..last one i drove was a 25k mint condition 450 bhp 993tt which i was trying to convince myself to buy coz i love the looks and build quality etc,however driven back-to-back with a 996tt the car felt like the wheels were on castors...im sure the 997tt will have the same relative step-up to the 996tt as well ..its called development.Change geomatry,suspension,brakes etc and of course it will handle well..any car will if altered enough.

[call_me_tom]

pheliX said:

993 OEM shocks seem to be pretty rubbish at lasting more than 4-5 years and/or 30K miles. I had similar issues with my 993tt when I bought it two+ years ago; it was not confidence inspiring at all when pushing on. Turn in was imprecise and the steering seemed to need one or more mid-bend corrections before the car was willing to track a constant radius arc. And bumps and undulations mid-bend just started the settling down process all over again. New Bilstein HD's transformed the handling and improved the ride at the same time. Mind you a 993 is a heavy car when compared to an Elise so it's not really a fair comparison. But that weight makes good shocks an absolute must.

Thanks, to everyone who has replied to my post.

Phelix, you've described what I'm feeling exactly. I'll get the geometry done first to see if that fixes the problem. How much did you pay for the Bilstein HD, if you don't mind me asking?

[Silver993tt]

kayc said:

wildoliver said:

kayc said:

Its a993 chief..they are all over the place..its like driving a Sainsburys trolley with 250+ bhp...i put up with mine for 3 months and ditched it as i thought it unsafe at anything above 100mph+Probably the most disappointing so-called performance car i have owned.Did you not drive it first?

I'm sorry but to come out with that comment you have either not driven a good 993 (I.E. yours had alignment/Geometry issues) or you can't drive properly, as if you are a good driver the 993 and particularly earlier cars offer a very precise drive with great weight transfer properties you can use to your benefit which are sadly slightly dulled in the 996 onwards.

However from your comment about 100mph plus I assume your not talking about twisty road handling more high speed cornering / stability so geometry does look a more likely explanation!

Owned one 993 c2s and driven 2 993 turbos..all felt the same ..vague ..last one i drove was a 25k mint condition 450 bhp 993tt which i was trying to convince myself to buy coz i love the looks and build quality etc,however driven back-to-back with a 996tt the car felt like the wheels were on castors...im sure the 997tt will have the same relative step-up to the 996tt as well ..its called development.Change geomatry,suspension,brakes etc and of course it will handle well..any car will if altered enough.

Yes but you are comparing cars (993s) that are several years old with much newer models (996s, 997s). After several years you need to renew the suspension bushes and shock absorbers (even springs sometimes). A 996 or 997 will feel the same after 8-10 years if nothing has been maintained/replaced. You should e comparing a 993 with suspension that is the same age as a 996 for a fair comparison. It would have to be virtually new suspension if comparing to a 997.

[DucatiGary]

guys, for the record KayC is like any poor person, they like to shout about what little they have, and make sure the world knows he has a 996 turbo and thinks that he can belittle others by telling them he has a 996 turbo and they will feel he is better than them.

his blinkered views hold no wieght at all IMHO, just my 2p

[Silver993tt]

call_me_tom said:

pheliX said:

993 OEM shocks seem to be pretty rubbish at lasting more than 4-5 years and/or 30K miles. I had similar issues with my 993tt when I bought it two+ years ago; it was not confidence inspiring at all when pushing on. Turn in was imprecise and the steering seemed to need one or more mid-bend corrections before the car was willing to track a constant radius arc. And bumps and undulations mid-bend just started the settling down process all over again. New Bilstein HD's transformed the handling and improved the ride at the same time. Mind you a 993 is a heavy car when compared to an Elise so it's not really a fair comparison. But that weight makes good shocks an absolute must.

Thanks, to everyone who has replied to my post.

Phelix, you've described what I'm feeling exactly. I'll get the geometry done first to see if that fixes the problem. How much did you pay for the Bilstein HD, if you don't mind me asking?

Bilstein HDs cost me about £700 from Carnewal. Also check your fron wishbones, these also go on 996s and are regular consumables on both cars.

[jimbrown]

I've owned a couple of Elises and when you drive them each day it's easy to forget how exceptional the steering is on those cars. A 10 year old 993 won't offer the same feeling but as people have already mentioned you can modify your driving style to get the most from the car. I found a driver training day on an airfield to be a good way to get to know the car without risking life & limb on the public roads.

[kayc]

DucatiGary said:

guys, for the record KayC is like any poor person, they like to shout about what little they have, and make sure the world knows he has a 996 turbo and thinks that he can belittle others by telling them he has a 996 turbo and they will feel he is better than them.

his blinkered views hold no wieght at all IMHO, just my 2p

I think you will find,if you can read that is ,that i believe the 997tt will be far superior to the 996tt even though i have dont have one..

[DucatiGary]

soory cnat raed.

[kayc]

DucatiGary said:

soory cnat raed.

For the record im not belittling anyone,but to expect a 993 designed donkeys years ago to feel like a modern handling car is not going to happen(unless extensively modernised).My point to be made to the original poster was not to be surprised about the rather strange characteristics of the 993....try a 965 turbo2, coz they are awesome cars but once again even harder to use at speed.I love these older air-cooled cars but they do disappoint if you are used to nimble,quick modern cars.