Mileage musings
Discussion
NB I am well aware of the "Buy on condition, not on mileage" mantra so, Henry et al, please don't take this thread as carte blanche to dispense a kicking for having raised it! 
The search for a 993 is ongoing after the last prospect fell at the PPI stage.A few likely contenders have been identified. Budget is £25K or so. I started off looking for a manual Targa but they're few and far between in manual form and, when they do come up, tend to be a few £K over my budget. So, I decided I'd be happy to "settle" for a C2 Coupe.
I've spotted a couple of Coupes that, on the face of it (not seen them yet - hoping to do so this weekend) look to be tidy examples. They're both earlier cars (94 - L reg) and have 98K and 99K miles respectively. Both are said to have full services histories and plenty of copy bills. Subject of course to actually seeing them and establishing whether suspension work is going to be required to replace knackered OEM dampers and springs, they both look like they tick the boxes for me. One is up at £21K, the other at £22K - both dealer cars, so presumably some room for haggling in those figures.
At the other end of the spectrum, there's a Targa on a P plate with 70-odd K miles. I've also seen a nice-looking P plate C2 Coupe with 60K-ish miles. They're both a touch above budget - but affordable if I can bring the sellers down a bit, I persuade myself that I really want them and that a younger lower mileage car is a better bet.
With my sensible head on, the earlier cars seem to be the better bet - lower initial cost, leaving more in the piggybank as a contingency fund if the worst happens, and possibly to tweak it if the urge is there once I've got used to it as-is.
The one nagging concern I have, however, is a lingering mental block of high mileage cars - namely, whether a car that is now already almost into six figure mileage, and after adding a few years of my own ownership with an estimated 5-6K miles p.a., is going to be considerably harder to sell on.
For a lot of people (and I suppose myself included to some extent, even though I do see the sense of Henry's mantra) a car which has passed the 100K mile barrier is less attractive than one that is still in five figures. That may not make sense logically, especially if the leggier car as been doted on and looked after when the younger one hasn't, but I think that's the perception.
(I know it's a psychological issue rather than a real one - the car isn't any more likely to blow the engine or develop other expensive problems at 105K miles than at 95K miles. And I know that a car with 100K miles and is 11-12 years old has only done 8,000 miles p.a., so is below average mileage.)
So, I suppose what I'm working up to, in a very roundabout kind of way, is an unscientific straw poll of you PH-ers as to just how off-putting you would find a car with a six figure mileage.
Perhaps more importantly, since we all know that mileage is only one factor in establishing value, even if it wouldn't be an issue for you personally, how much of an issue do you think it is for unenlightened Joe Public who may not spend his/her days trawling internet forums and being indoctrinated by Henry?
(I'm pretty sure I know which way I'm going to go so I'm posing the question more from interest than looking for guidance on a buying decision)
The search for a 993 is ongoing after the last prospect fell at the PPI stage.A few likely contenders have been identified. Budget is £25K or so. I started off looking for a manual Targa but they're few and far between in manual form and, when they do come up, tend to be a few £K over my budget. So, I decided I'd be happy to "settle" for a C2 Coupe.
I've spotted a couple of Coupes that, on the face of it (not seen them yet - hoping to do so this weekend) look to be tidy examples. They're both earlier cars (94 - L reg) and have 98K and 99K miles respectively. Both are said to have full services histories and plenty of copy bills. Subject of course to actually seeing them and establishing whether suspension work is going to be required to replace knackered OEM dampers and springs, they both look like they tick the boxes for me. One is up at £21K, the other at £22K - both dealer cars, so presumably some room for haggling in those figures.
At the other end of the spectrum, there's a Targa on a P plate with 70-odd K miles. I've also seen a nice-looking P plate C2 Coupe with 60K-ish miles. They're both a touch above budget - but affordable if I can bring the sellers down a bit, I persuade myself that I really want them and that a younger lower mileage car is a better bet.
With my sensible head on, the earlier cars seem to be the better bet - lower initial cost, leaving more in the piggybank as a contingency fund if the worst happens, and possibly to tweak it if the urge is there once I've got used to it as-is.
The one nagging concern I have, however, is a lingering mental block of high mileage cars - namely, whether a car that is now already almost into six figure mileage, and after adding a few years of my own ownership with an estimated 5-6K miles p.a., is going to be considerably harder to sell on.
For a lot of people (and I suppose myself included to some extent, even though I do see the sense of Henry's mantra) a car which has passed the 100K mile barrier is less attractive than one that is still in five figures. That may not make sense logically, especially if the leggier car as been doted on and looked after when the younger one hasn't, but I think that's the perception.
(I know it's a psychological issue rather than a real one - the car isn't any more likely to blow the engine or develop other expensive problems at 105K miles than at 95K miles. And I know that a car with 100K miles and is 11-12 years old has only done 8,000 miles p.a., so is below average mileage.)
So, I suppose what I'm working up to, in a very roundabout kind of way, is an unscientific straw poll of you PH-ers as to just how off-putting you would find a car with a six figure mileage.
Perhaps more importantly, since we all know that mileage is only one factor in establishing value, even if it wouldn't be an issue for you personally, how much of an issue do you think it is for unenlightened Joe Public who may not spend his/her days trawling internet forums and being indoctrinated by Henry?
(I'm pretty sure I know which way I'm going to go so I'm posing the question more from interest than looking for guidance on a buying decision)
Edited by Lurking Lawyer on Wednesday 27th September 11:21
Edited by Lurking Lawyer on Wednesday 27th September 12:09
abarber said:
Don't get too hung up on the miles. 993s have a reputation as bullet proof.
Personally, I'm quite relaxed about it. I have no issue from a technical and reliability point of view with buying a car knocking on the door of 100K miles.
However, I've had the benefit of reading Henry's wisdom
I'm more interested to see whether you lot think I'm wide of the mark in believing that the "unenlightened" would consider it to be more an issue than, on the whole, people on here do. Edited by Lurking Lawyer on Wednesday 27th September 11:24
High mileage to me is not good..mechanically the car will be fine but how do you stop seat and carpet wear,shiny steering wheels and gear knobs and wobbly switch gear?It doesnt matter how hard you try to look after a car it will still pick-up stonechips,scratches,and minor scuffs..all can be rectified but then you lose 'originality'.Every car i have owned from a low mileage car and taken to reasonably high mileage before selling it(i.e family cars)has felt looser and 'less together' at the end.Also suspension components and gear linkages etc will be noticeably looser on a high mileage car unless they have been replaced/upgraded. I would go for an older car with low mileage than a higher mileage newer car ,imo of course.
Have you seen the ad for the manual targa Paul Mc has at www.gtclassics.co.uk
For the sake of a few £k I would be inclined to buy the car you really want, buy well and you should sell on well if you choose to.
For the sake of a few £k I would be inclined to buy the car you really want, buy well and you should sell on well if you choose to.
Consider this. You pay a premium to buy a 78k mile car over a 98k mile car.
What happens in 2 years time when you`ve put 20k miles on the car. Would you buy your own car off yourself !
Once the cars have done their 100k miles then it doesn`t really matter what the number is. There is no significant price differential between 117k miles and 147k miles. It`ll be a price range car selling on it`s condition.
It`s a big mistake I see people making and the source of much depreciation. If you do buy a car with a little number on the speedo you must not use it or you will rob the car of it`s premium.
Certainly between the 70k and 90k mile cars there will be no benefit in terms of wear, either one could have done the least work.
Henry
What happens in 2 years time when you`ve put 20k miles on the car. Would you buy your own car off yourself !
Once the cars have done their 100k miles then it doesn`t really matter what the number is. There is no significant price differential between 117k miles and 147k miles. It`ll be a price range car selling on it`s condition.
It`s a big mistake I see people making and the source of much depreciation. If you do buy a car with a little number on the speedo you must not use it or you will rob the car of it`s premium.
Certainly between the 70k and 90k mile cars there will be no benefit in terms of wear, either one could have done the least work.
Henry
I was in the same situation a couple of years ago and looked at loads and loads of 993's (I wanted a cab thought) to be honest the corrolation between condition of car and numbers on the speedo made no sense at all.
I looked at the following all described as mint !:
96 p with 19k on the clock which was an absoloute dog (tired interior curbed alloys dented bottom of doors etc teh owner described it as mint)
94 with 60k looked ok to start with but had been accident damaged and baddly repaired
97 p with 130k better than the above and drove very well sold before I could buy it for more than the other two
97p 71k small hole in roof tiny dent in front wing and a few stone chips on the bonnet, interior pretty good needed new steering wheel cover and gaiter but that was it
So I bought the last one its now done 91k with no issues (touch wood) and just regular servicing,tyres and a wheel refurb, it has two tiny dents that no one else but me would see and no scratches after th bonnet was resprayed by Porsche.
I am anal about where I park it etc but hey its in very very good condition for a 9 year old. So much the garage who services it have just offered to buy it !!!
So to summarise I would personally from my experience ignore the numbers on the dash and buy the best condition car you can for the money, just knock a bit of or keep ome money back for easyly replaceable items or ston chip re sprays
Phib
Can't believe I am agreeing with Henry !!!!
I looked at the following all described as mint !:
96 p with 19k on the clock which was an absoloute dog (tired interior curbed alloys dented bottom of doors etc teh owner described it as mint)
94 with 60k looked ok to start with but had been accident damaged and baddly repaired
97 p with 130k better than the above and drove very well sold before I could buy it for more than the other two
97p 71k small hole in roof tiny dent in front wing and a few stone chips on the bonnet, interior pretty good needed new steering wheel cover and gaiter but that was it
So I bought the last one its now done 91k with no issues (touch wood) and just regular servicing,tyres and a wheel refurb, it has two tiny dents that no one else but me would see and no scratches after th bonnet was resprayed by Porsche.
I am anal about where I park it etc but hey its in very very good condition for a 9 year old. So much the garage who services it have just offered to buy it !!!
So to summarise I would personally from my experience ignore the numbers on the dash and buy the best condition car you can for the money, just knock a bit of or keep ome money back for easyly replaceable items or ston chip re sprays
Phib
Can't believe I am agreeing with Henry !!!!
Edited by phib on Wednesday 27th September 11:44
Yes there is a barrier to climb when getting a layman to accept a 105k car is just as good if not better than an 85k car.
However, as 993's get older the type of people interested in the cars are more specialist buyers anyway and WILL buy on condition. For example is any current buyer of a late 1970's early 1980's 911 hung up on mileage at all? I very much doubt it.
And remember - as uncle H will attest every car is not necessarily what it seems and irrespective of the stamps in the books what it says on the odo is not always a true reflection of the individual car's history
However, as 993's get older the type of people interested in the cars are more specialist buyers anyway and WILL buy on condition. For example is any current buyer of a late 1970's early 1980's 911 hung up on mileage at all? I very much doubt it.
And remember - as uncle H will attest every car is not necessarily what it seems and irrespective of the stamps in the books what it says on the odo is not always a true reflection of the individual car's history
kayc said:
High mileage to me is not good..mechanically the car will be fine but how do you stop seat and carpet wear,shiny steering wheels and gear knobs and wobbly switch gear?
But that`s just the thing the interior wear is based on use, ie how many times you get in and out together with how many hours you are in the car. Sitting on the motorway 100 miles takes an hour and a half and one journey. Sitting in London that could be as much as 50 or even more hours and as many getting in and outs, not to mention gear lever wear, pedal wear etc.
A newer car with more miles will almost certainly have done fewer longer journeys than an older car with less miles which will have done more short journeys. Certainly its been alive longer and it`s interior has had longer to deteriorate.
We see some very tired city / small journey cars with relatively small numbers on the speedo. The condition of the interior is a general barometer of the condition of the oily buits.
Henry
Edited by henry-f on Wednesday 27th September 12:28
Mark
You would do well to arrange to view the Targa at GT Classics. Paul McLean is a Gent and having no PX you could possibly strike a deal that suits both of you. Midnight Blue is a stunning colour on a 993 especially when swirl free and Zymol'd up
Cheers
Allan
UK Trucks
Weltmeister
WRC Technologies
You would do well to arrange to view the Targa at GT Classics. Paul McLean is a Gent and having no PX you could possibly strike a deal that suits both of you. Midnight Blue is a stunning colour on a 993 especially when swirl free and Zymol'd up
Cheers
Allan
UK Trucks
Weltmeister
WRC Technologies
Lurking Lawyer said:
Perhaps more importantly, since we all know that mileage is only one factor in establishing value, even if it wouldn't be an issue for you personally, how much of an issue do you think it is for unenlightened Joe Public who may not spend his/her days trawling internet forums and being indoctrinated by Henry?
I think this debate has subtly moved off topic: everyone is onto the usual discussion about mileage vs condition etc, but wasn't the question really about what unenlightened buyers (i.e Joe Public) think?
henry-f said:
Once the cars have done their 100k miles then it doesn`t really matter what the number is. There is no significant price differential between 117k miles and 147k miles. It`ll be a price range car selling on it`s condition.
exactly - buy a 70k car or buy a 120k+ car for much less
buying a car on the cusp of 100k is worst of both worlds unless you buy it for 120k+ money
Good save, deutscher!
Clubsport, no, I had somehow managed to overlook GT Classics in my trawl of indie dealers. The Targa there looks spot on - shame it's up at £3K more than I've persuaded 'Er Indoors to let me spend
It's not exactly close to home to go and have a look on the off-chance either (nigh on 200 miles away) but I guess it wouldn't hurt to give Paul a call and see whether there's any flexibility at all in the price.
Clubsport, no, I had somehow managed to overlook GT Classics in my trawl of indie dealers. The Targa there looks spot on - shame it's up at £3K more than I've persuaded 'Er Indoors to let me spend
It's not exactly close to home to go and have a look on the off-chance either (nigh on 200 miles away) but I guess it wouldn't hurt to give Paul a call and see whether there's any flexibility at all in the price.My 993's have varied in mileage and condition, but even my current 98k mile C2 has no rattles, squeeks, or weird noises. It's as tight as a drum and feels that way to drive too. Sure it has a few stone chips which will need blowing over next spring, but that's life.
As henry has said, if you actually plan to drive it rather than look at it, you may do well to find a 100k+ car that has been looked after and had money spent on it (new clutch, new shocks, etc. etc.)
Any 993 will sell quickly if the price is right...
As henry has said, if you actually plan to drive it rather than look at it, you may do well to find a 100k+ car that has been looked after and had money spent on it (new clutch, new shocks, etc. etc.)
Any 993 will sell quickly if the price is right...
Personally and speaking entriely as an uninformed non performance car owning PH member, I'd be scared witless at buying a high mileage performance car, purely because it seems like a high risk in terms of ongoing costs.
To put it in context however I say this is as someone who could probably scrape up the readies for a £20k car but would then have nothing else available for contingency and ongoing costs.
If I have £30k available (assuming a £10k contingency fund), I probably wouldn't be looking at such high mileage cars as would feel that a much lower mileage car would cost less in the long run. (obviously debatable based on extra miles added and epreciation and also the argument re short journey/higher wear etc etc)
As I say this is a gut feel and may be similar to other un-enlightened folks out there. Henry's points are well made to be sure and if I was in the market and had seen the debate, they are points that I would consider, without seeing the "sensible-thinking" approach from Henry though I doubt I'd be splashing the readies on a 100k plus miler (or indeed an 80K+ miler!)
My 2p anyway
Cheers
Phil
To put it in context however I say this is as someone who could probably scrape up the readies for a £20k car but would then have nothing else available for contingency and ongoing costs.
If I have £30k available (assuming a £10k contingency fund), I probably wouldn't be looking at such high mileage cars as would feel that a much lower mileage car would cost less in the long run. (obviously debatable based on extra miles added and epreciation and also the argument re short journey/higher wear etc etc)
As I say this is a gut feel and may be similar to other un-enlightened folks out there. Henry's points are well made to be sure and if I was in the market and had seen the debate, they are points that I would consider, without seeing the "sensible-thinking" approach from Henry though I doubt I'd be splashing the readies on a 100k plus miler (or indeed an 80K+ miler!)
My 2p anyway
Cheers
Phil
The only thing with low milage cars imho and from a little experience (excluding the depreciation) is that they can cost the same if not more to maintain than regularly used examples i.e.
Many of the seals, hoses gaskets can dry out a close friend has a low milage 996 which gets used once a month for a couple of days ( as he works away) and probably does about 4k pa.
Its cost a fortune in aircon seals, new hoses, batterys and loads of other bits and bobs from memory about £3k Pa in bit excluding servicing !!!
You pays your money and takes your chances !!!
Many of the seals, hoses gaskets can dry out a close friend has a low milage 996 which gets used once a month for a couple of days ( as he works away) and probably does about 4k pa.
Its cost a fortune in aircon seals, new hoses, batterys and loads of other bits and bobs from memory about £3k Pa in bit excluding servicing !!!
You pays your money and takes your chances !!!
Surely as time goes by it will only be specialists and enthusiasts who buy these cars.
Joe Public is always going to go for a 996 becuause its "newer".
So that leaves the men in the know, who know that mileage is not a factor. I for one would not pay a premium for a low milage car unless it was going to be a garage ornimante, then whats the point of having it.
Joe Public is always going to go for a 996 becuause its "newer".
So that leaves the men in the know, who know that mileage is not a factor. I for one would not pay a premium for a low milage car unless it was going to be a garage ornimante, then whats the point of having it.
A quick poll around the office - all non car enthusiasts - reveals they would be put off buying any car with more than 100k miles. Personally, I would disagree as I have had several with 150k or so which were in much better condition than lower mileage examples. Hope the office pole gives you a more Joe Public opinion, although most of these same people would think you were mad if you bought a car more than 3 to 4 years old!
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