965 3.6 turbo performance upgrade
Discussion
Hi guys,
I've owned my 965 3.6 turbo for 8 years and have hummed and harred about selling the various toys I have including the 3.6 and buying one serious supercar. The truth is the 3.6 for me just looks so damm sexy. A while back I came across a serious engine tuner not in this country and I am toying with the idea of forgetting the supercar and getting him to build a mega engine for the 3.6. For example he built a 965 3.6 twin turbo engine for a guy in the states who on road tyres runs sub 10's at 150mph.
This chap advises that the best engine to work with is the 3.3 turbo 2. I have just been offered such an engine that would suit. I would rather keep my original 3.6 turbo engine to maintain its originality and fit the 3.3 tubo 2. Above 750bhp you need to fit a flat fan style of engine but even making 1000 bhp we are talking of only running 1.2 bar of boost pressure. Yep I know other bits need looking at, i'd fit the 993 GT2 very big red calipers and discs and FVD suspension. A mate has driven an FVD built 965 turbo cabriolet and reckoned it was the best handling 911 he had ever driven. He has built numerous 911 race cars and he should know. What do you reckon guys. Sell the toys, buy a Diablo GT, Zonda etc or keep the 3.6 and make it into a monster ?.
I've owned my 965 3.6 turbo for 8 years and have hummed and harred about selling the various toys I have including the 3.6 and buying one serious supercar. The truth is the 3.6 for me just looks so damm sexy. A while back I came across a serious engine tuner not in this country and I am toying with the idea of forgetting the supercar and getting him to build a mega engine for the 3.6. For example he built a 965 3.6 twin turbo engine for a guy in the states who on road tyres runs sub 10's at 150mph.
This chap advises that the best engine to work with is the 3.3 turbo 2. I have just been offered such an engine that would suit. I would rather keep my original 3.6 turbo engine to maintain its originality and fit the 3.3 tubo 2. Above 750bhp you need to fit a flat fan style of engine but even making 1000 bhp we are talking of only running 1.2 bar of boost pressure. Yep I know other bits need looking at, i'd fit the 993 GT2 very big red calipers and discs and FVD suspension. A mate has driven an FVD built 965 turbo cabriolet and reckoned it was the best handling 911 he had ever driven. He has built numerous 911 race cars and he should know. What do you reckon guys. Sell the toys, buy a Diablo GT, Zonda etc or keep the 3.6 and make it into a monster ?.
Hi Graeme,
There is lots of good info on 965 mods on www.rennlist.com, check out the 964turbo forum where lots of us lurk...
Where do you 965 guys hide? These are so rare at the various meets.
I am also building a small contact group in the London/counties area. Feel free to drop me a line.
There is lots of good info on 965 mods on www.rennlist.com, check out the 964turbo forum where lots of us lurk...
Where do you 965 guys hide? These are so rare at the various meets.
I am also building a small contact group in the London/counties area. Feel free to drop me a line.
Edited by 911addict on Monday 2nd October 22:58
Hi Graeme,
I am a great fan of the 965 3.6 Turbo, the last but one of the great air cooled RWD turbos, which in turbo s guise is very much in the 993 GT2 league.
If you are serious about reinventing your car, then I would suggest you consider
converting it to a 965 Turbo S.You can get the full spec easy enough from the web.
You can get the engine upgrade from Porsche in 3.6 turbo guise, ie bigger turbo, different cams, cylinder heads etc.FVD or Cargraphic could no doubt oblige.450-500 BHP is possible with every modification available.
Bodywork is the full RS treatment along with the trademark airscoops.
The car would end up weighing around 1300kg, and be in the GT2 performance class.
Can't quite see the point of turning it into a 700bhp monster;the car was never meant to be a drag strip King unless you want the ultimate Q car.Keep it honest and near original!
I am a great fan of the 965 3.6 Turbo, the last but one of the great air cooled RWD turbos, which in turbo s guise is very much in the 993 GT2 league.
If you are serious about reinventing your car, then I would suggest you consider
converting it to a 965 Turbo S.You can get the full spec easy enough from the web.
You can get the engine upgrade from Porsche in 3.6 turbo guise, ie bigger turbo, different cams, cylinder heads etc.FVD or Cargraphic could no doubt oblige.450-500 BHP is possible with every modification available.
Bodywork is the full RS treatment along with the trademark airscoops.
The car would end up weighing around 1300kg, and be in the GT2 performance class.
Can't quite see the point of turning it into a 700bhp monster;the car was never meant to be a drag strip King unless you want the ultimate Q car.Keep it honest and near original!
Wasn't there also a rare 3.3S version?
Graeme,
How far do you really want to go? Bolt-on goodies, like exhaust, w/g spring, turbo, headers will give you well over 400hp. Rebuild, cams, fuel will give you 500(?), before you get into serious custom work...
Ninemeister are the UK gurus to talk to, I believe. What about Ruf? Then there's the yanks....
Graeme,
How far do you really want to go? Bolt-on goodies, like exhaust, w/g spring, turbo, headers will give you well over 400hp. Rebuild, cams, fuel will give you 500(?), before you get into serious custom work...
Ninemeister are the UK gurus to talk to, I believe. What about Ruf? Then there's the yanks....
As someone else has mentioned, Ultraviolent has/is going down this road already and has a raft of experience regarding what works with these engines and we are helping him to put it all together.
What I can tell you is that for a genuine 700+bhp, your shopping list for parts will have to include:
Engine management system
Fuel system
Intake manifolds
Intercooler
Camshafts
Pistons
Connecting rods
Heads
Twin plug Ignition system
Headers
Turbocharger
Wastegate
Silencer
etc.....
If you need more info, I think it may be easier if you just call me.
What I can tell you is that for a genuine 700+bhp, your shopping list for parts will have to include:
Engine management system
Fuel system
Intake manifolds
Intercooler
Camshafts
Pistons
Connecting rods
Heads
Twin plug Ignition system
Headers
Turbocharger
Wastegate
Silencer
etc.....
If you need more info, I think it may be easier if you just call me.
Thanks for the feedback. As these cars are pretty rare I would not want to chop it about as it would be criminal to do so. The mate I mentioned earlier bought a 965 3.6 turbo S from a guy in Aberdeen a couple of months back. Some of you may have seen or know the car. It is not flat fronted and is in Ferrari Yellow. I went with him to collect the car and we shared the drive back. The interior is bog standard unlike the 3.3 turbo S with the lightweight RS interior and I think they made around 408 bhp. Lovely car apart from the bezels of the gauges being covered in yellow vinyl/leather. In truth the car did not feel any quicker than mine but it is a while since I've driven her.
I wouldn't touch the interior which is in excellent condition, you still get the leather smell when you open the door. Mod wise she has a Rook modified timing pick up sensor, 0.95 bar waste gate spring, no silencer and a Zukspeed air box assembly. She's done 49,000 miles. I had two trains of thought as to fitting a 3.3 turbo 2 engine. First was to keep the 3.6 turbo engine pretty stock for originality and second was that I believe they are far easier to tune for big horsepower. I'll look at what you guys suggest and send a pm to ultraviolet. Thanks once again, Graeme
I wouldn't touch the interior which is in excellent condition, you still get the leather smell when you open the door. Mod wise she has a Rook modified timing pick up sensor, 0.95 bar waste gate spring, no silencer and a Zukspeed air box assembly. She's done 49,000 miles. I had two trains of thought as to fitting a 3.3 turbo 2 engine. First was to keep the 3.6 turbo engine pretty stock for originality and second was that I believe they are far easier to tune for big horsepower. I'll look at what you guys suggest and send a pm to ultraviolet. Thanks once again, Graeme
Now what a wonderful idea...
I'm close to the end of trying to achieve exactly what you describe with Colin/9M. As Colin has already said you will have to design this from the ground up and fortunately I/9M can help you avoid some of the issues. You'd be surprised how many things that work at 500bhp don't at 600+ BHP.
We also converted to RS spec interior for good measure.
I'm close to the end of trying to achieve exactly what you describe with Colin/9M. As Colin has already said you will have to design this from the ground up and fortunately I/9M can help you avoid some of the issues. You'd be surprised how many things that work at 500bhp don't at 600+ BHP.
We also converted to RS spec interior for good measure.
Graeme, take it from me, 750 + brake is very difficult and very expensive! I have seen close to 700 at 1.2 bar on the dyno but the engine is soooo close to its thermal limit that its not funny. Maybe it would last on a road car were you are not in the throttle long but for any track work you are looking at a short engine life. I have run the only set of "screw in barrels" in order to solve the head to barrel sealing issue but unfortunately these have their own problems! In all honesty, stick to 500 brake and you might even get a gearbox to last!
Cheers,
Richard.
Cheers,
Richard.
Been doing Britcar this year with mixed results. been on pole and fastest lap every time out but have finished none!!!! Ho hum, thats racing butyou know all aboutthat. I did a 1 hour at Croft in the Open and won that but its no compensation really. Rupert is still out there but has had an equally bad year with a big blow up and a crash. His engines are supposidly over 750 brake but they arethe state of the art water cooled things and very expensive. As for driving ability....just look at the results!!! What about you? Its about time you did something again otherwise how else can youspend your money????.
Richard
Richard
IMHO because of the lack of 3.6 turbos around it would be a shame to basically use it's bodyshell and ditch the mechanicals, maybe you could could find a tired turbo2 with 3.3 engine (which I know from experience is pretty bomb proof) and work with that. Whatever you do sounds like a great project and I agree that the 965 is sex on a stick, I really miss my old 3.3 turbo 2.
Well despite several mutterings from various indivduals my motorsport activities for the year 2005 and 2006 have so far has amounted to sweet F.A. I think the harsh reality is unless you have your own toy to go and play with as and when you wish it ain't going to happen. There is a rumour of what was a mint low mileage 3.3 turbo 2 that has had a front end shunt for sale in France for around 10,000 Euros. Chap was OK just went over instead of around the roundabout. That could make a nice race car. Hang on just let me slap myself around the face for a while. That reminds me whatever happened to Dave (sorry I missed the brake pedal again)Lees.
p.s. I wouldn't want water running through my barrels unless it's because I washed the car
p.s. I wouldn't want water running through my barrels unless it's because I washed the car
Edited by graeme73s on Tuesday 3rd October 10:27
Don't know what happened to David Lees. Shame as he was quite a character!! I agree with you about having your own car. It just gets too expensive and difficult using other peoples as there are always bound to be hassles.
Are you serious about building a "sensible" turbo engine? If so give me a ring as I can recommend a few people who can help. One thing to remember though - it will be expensive!
Richard.
Are you serious about building a "sensible" turbo engine? If so give me a ring as I can recommend a few people who can help. One thing to remember though - it will be expensive!
Richard.
Like tricky has said, 500bhp from a 3.3 is a cinch in comparison to 700, especially if you can prise yourself away from the almost prehistoric KKK turbos and fit a more suitable modern design. Cams, headers, turbo, 1.0bar boost and extra fuelling should suffice on a 3.3 engine, but if the budget allows it on a 965 you must also consider engine management as an essential ingredient in the pie.
The ripping out the interior route would be a no no. I want a supercar that you can drive with creature comforts. I've owned a number of race Porsche's and in the old days used to drive them to the circuit, race them and drive them home again. Even Zandvoort in Holland with the missus back in 94 in a 3.2 carrera supersport. I will have a chat with my old mate Richard and of course Colin at ninemeister. Then decide which route to take. Perhaps I could persuade a friend of mine to sell me his 964 supercup car. Its one of the 80 cars that were built and road registered. Imagine that with a 500bhp twin turbo conversion stuck up its backside and weighing 1100 kg.
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