How to identify if a Porker's clocked
Discussion
I went to see a 996 TT a chap local to me is selling - year 2000 model, and a good price.
The car has had a couple of reg changes in its life and according to the V5 document has had 4 keepers, but in the bundle of papers that accompanied it I could only find bills in the names of two of them. Vehicle check has already been done and has not turned up any problems either, BUT the mileage on one MOT certificate is much higher and different numbers (ie not just an extra zero) than on the subsequent two. Either the engineer made a mistake, or something more sinister is going on...
Is the mileage reading easy to tamper with on these, and if so what are the signs I should check for - without being obvious to the seller of course!
The car has had a couple of reg changes in its life and according to the V5 document has had 4 keepers, but in the bundle of papers that accompanied it I could only find bills in the names of two of them. Vehicle check has already been done and has not turned up any problems either, BUT the mileage on one MOT certificate is much higher and different numbers (ie not just an extra zero) than on the subsequent two. Either the engineer made a mistake, or something more sinister is going on...
Is the mileage reading easy to tamper with on these, and if so what are the signs I should check for - without being obvious to the seller of course!
On my 993TT, was trying to sort out an airbag problem. The mechanic plugged in his Bosch tester into the socket on the centre console and pulled up the data off the ECU. Amongst other things it does give running hours, not average speed though. I used my own average speed from the OBC and they gave some credibility to the mileage.
Of course its easy to change an ECU but its another check to make sure it all verifies like docs and chips and pedal rubbers etc.
Of course its easy to change an ECU but its another check to make sure it all verifies like docs and chips and pedal rubbers etc.
Very easy is your answer
On models with the old style clocks which all new Porsche's had up to circa 2001 its a simple case of plugging a mobile into the socket under the glove box takes 20 seconds to type in any number you like.
For models after that you need to change the chip in the back of the speed IE take the clocks out its a bit of a piss on but no real problem for the pro clocker.
As for the 997s more of the same I'm told.
You would be amazed how many one owner cars there are out there that have covered 7k miles which really in reality are somewhere nearer 27k.
On models with the old style clocks which all new Porsche's had up to circa 2001 its a simple case of plugging a mobile into the socket under the glove box takes 20 seconds to type in any number you like.
For models after that you need to change the chip in the back of the speed IE take the clocks out its a bit of a piss on but no real problem for the pro clocker.
As for the 997s more of the same I'm told.
You would be amazed how many one owner cars there are out there that have covered 7k miles which really in reality are somewhere nearer 27k.
Sorry for posting here as well but after posting on the other thread I saw this one which is quite appropriate for my post:
Both the clock and the ECU can be played with but the hour meter can't (it can but but its highly incripted. Porsche dealers use a rule of thumb to determine mileage, each 1000hours work correspond approximately to 40 000km.
Both the clock and the ECU can be played with but the hour meter can't (it can but but its highly incripted. Porsche dealers use a rule of thumb to determine mileage, each 1000hours work correspond approximately to 40 000km.
Edited by kiko on Saturday 21st October 00:24
GENUINE MILEAGE = A NIGHTMARE
Going back to slightly older cars, we had many instances where a car came in for service or repair and we could tell roughly that the mileage was say 100K (from general wear, gearbox noise, camshaft sprocket wear etc) and the clock said say 40K. The owners had had them from new (or a long time) and when challenged admitted they disconnect the speedo (having worked out and remembered the revs in say 4th or 5th that equate to the main speed limits) for perhaps 10 months of the year and that our estimate of mileage is about right.
One such case involved a buyer from another local dealer having found a very low mileage 944 (apparently the dealer knew the last owner well and he was "apparently totally trustworthy"?.
When it came in it has obviously covered about 60K more and there underneath - where the wires go from the gearbox speed sensor to the instruments was a retro fitted in line fuse - enabling an owner to simply pull it out to stop the speedo clocking up the miles.
In these cases all the service history's appear genuine as do the Mot's etc. If an investigation was then launched - Hpi apparently write to previous owners and accept their word - so no solution there and the mileage would then be confirmed as checked and genuine!.
When we started out we had no trade contacts and it was difficult to find stock so we sometimes used auctions (very rare now) and we bought a low mileage car with "fsh" at auction but upon inspection later we thought it had been clocked and after close scrutiny found a problem with the history thinking some must be missing and where. We advertised it as such and sold it for a lower price guessing and stating what we thought was the true mileage and the missing history. The buyer vowed to trace the previous owners and managed to and not only found our mileage estimate within 2K but amazingly traced the missing history - which it actually had and was therefore fsh once the true mileage had been adjusted. It was also a superb car that we bought and sold a few times over the years - to a lot of very happy owners.
Did you also know that - on top of all these problems - recent legislation means it is not illegal to clock your own car - only to claim the recorded mileage is then genuine and dealers are supposed to put a disclaimer on the car that they do not guarantee the mileage - then use that to wriggle out of responsibility later if found out (we do not and are prepared to stand by our assessment of the reliability of the recorded figures for cars we sell).
When we found all this out (shortly after starting our business) we then looked at the average mileages covered by genuine mileage cars from new and found that a very high proportion of new Porsche's cover very high mileages in the first few years - often as much as it also claimed for the average for Porsche's for sale that are 10 years older!
So it is a nightmare situation and frankly the best solution is to enlist the help of an expert who knows the cars and inspects them - they can usually get within 10K even on a high mileage car from its general condition.
Newer electronic digital speedo's can help (they are more difficult to tamper with) and the diagnostics do provide some back up to first impressions - but still a check of the vehicle is the best guide. It is also interesting for us to note that since the introduction of the latest digital speedo types - the average mileage our computer price checking system records from cars advertised for sale - of up to 3 year old Porsche's - has increased quite a lot.
It is also a known practice that contract hire cars can have the high mileage engines/gearboxes swapped with one low mileage one bought in an auction and sold back after the swap (with all the documents and fitted with the worn out engine or gearbox) for roughly break even prices - experiencing little or no loss - but leaving the hire car with a new lower mileage engine - good for many more miles. In these cases however the eventual buyer of this high mielage car gets a bargain - because the engine/transmission is better than the mileage indicates.
To add to confusion new replacement engines come without any numbers - so easy to fiddle with.
We use the expresion that a car we may be inspecting is "typical of this model if it had covered "XXX" K miles. So a genuine low mileage car that has been abused or a higher mileage car that has been driven carefully may be in the same condition - but that it really what is the most important issue anyway - not the mileage but what it the car like right now - what typical mileage would be fair to associate with it.
So you need to be very very careful and it is always best - if not sure - to seek help from an expert in the model.
It is a wicked world
Baz Hartech
Going back to slightly older cars, we had many instances where a car came in for service or repair and we could tell roughly that the mileage was say 100K (from general wear, gearbox noise, camshaft sprocket wear etc) and the clock said say 40K. The owners had had them from new (or a long time) and when challenged admitted they disconnect the speedo (having worked out and remembered the revs in say 4th or 5th that equate to the main speed limits) for perhaps 10 months of the year and that our estimate of mileage is about right.
One such case involved a buyer from another local dealer having found a very low mileage 944 (apparently the dealer knew the last owner well and he was "apparently totally trustworthy"?.
When it came in it has obviously covered about 60K more and there underneath - where the wires go from the gearbox speed sensor to the instruments was a retro fitted in line fuse - enabling an owner to simply pull it out to stop the speedo clocking up the miles.
In these cases all the service history's appear genuine as do the Mot's etc. If an investigation was then launched - Hpi apparently write to previous owners and accept their word - so no solution there and the mileage would then be confirmed as checked and genuine!.
When we started out we had no trade contacts and it was difficult to find stock so we sometimes used auctions (very rare now) and we bought a low mileage car with "fsh" at auction but upon inspection later we thought it had been clocked and after close scrutiny found a problem with the history thinking some must be missing and where. We advertised it as such and sold it for a lower price guessing and stating what we thought was the true mileage and the missing history. The buyer vowed to trace the previous owners and managed to and not only found our mileage estimate within 2K but amazingly traced the missing history - which it actually had and was therefore fsh once the true mileage had been adjusted. It was also a superb car that we bought and sold a few times over the years - to a lot of very happy owners.
Did you also know that - on top of all these problems - recent legislation means it is not illegal to clock your own car - only to claim the recorded mileage is then genuine and dealers are supposed to put a disclaimer on the car that they do not guarantee the mileage - then use that to wriggle out of responsibility later if found out (we do not and are prepared to stand by our assessment of the reliability of the recorded figures for cars we sell).
When we found all this out (shortly after starting our business) we then looked at the average mileages covered by genuine mileage cars from new and found that a very high proportion of new Porsche's cover very high mileages in the first few years - often as much as it also claimed for the average for Porsche's for sale that are 10 years older!
So it is a nightmare situation and frankly the best solution is to enlist the help of an expert who knows the cars and inspects them - they can usually get within 10K even on a high mileage car from its general condition.
Newer electronic digital speedo's can help (they are more difficult to tamper with) and the diagnostics do provide some back up to first impressions - but still a check of the vehicle is the best guide. It is also interesting for us to note that since the introduction of the latest digital speedo types - the average mileage our computer price checking system records from cars advertised for sale - of up to 3 year old Porsche's - has increased quite a lot.
It is also a known practice that contract hire cars can have the high mileage engines/gearboxes swapped with one low mileage one bought in an auction and sold back after the swap (with all the documents and fitted with the worn out engine or gearbox) for roughly break even prices - experiencing little or no loss - but leaving the hire car with a new lower mileage engine - good for many more miles. In these cases however the eventual buyer of this high mielage car gets a bargain - because the engine/transmission is better than the mileage indicates.
To add to confusion new replacement engines come without any numbers - so easy to fiddle with.
We use the expresion that a car we may be inspecting is "typical of this model if it had covered "XXX" K miles. So a genuine low mileage car that has been abused or a higher mileage car that has been driven carefully may be in the same condition - but that it really what is the most important issue anyway - not the mileage but what it the car like right now - what typical mileage would be fair to associate with it.
So you need to be very very careful and it is always best - if not sure - to seek help from an expert in the model.
It is a wicked world
Baz Hartech
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