Air And Water .. An American's Views
Discussion
I spotted this in an american Porsche mag yesterday .. I have no interest in churlish schoolboy jibes so lets refrain from them. I just thought this guy has some interesting points .. I've done some slight editing to make it easier and quicker to type .
It's basically a techie (called Bruce!) answering a question sent to him asking his view on the best Porsche to get for a budget of $40k.
Mods , if I'm not supposed to be posting stuff from mags , apologies , please feel free to delete....
"Buy the newest , best car you can afford" has been my advice ever since the 911 SC was introduced in 1978. While this advice was never intended for enthusiasts who are after a specific model or a model from a specific period, I feel it probably still applies for people like you. And for $40,000 it will come down to a car from the late 1990's or early 2000's. That means 993, 996 or Boxster- and there isn't a loser in the bunch.
Your friend should be able to find a wonderful example of any of these models .as much as I've always loved 911's I'd probably buy the newest Boxter S I could find for $40k . With Boxster resale values being what they are, you can probably find a very new one - possibly even a new base Boxster.
My recommendation reminds me of 'the great controversy ', which which has been raging over the various problems with both the last of the aircooled cars , the 993 and the new watercooled 986, 996 , 987 , 997's.Everyone has their views on whether the final aircooled cars are better, but I keep thinking about an e-mail exchange I had with a friend in the porsche repair and racing business recently , someone for whom I have great respect.
I tell everyone looking to buy a 993, that they're probably the best car that Porsche has ever built, but to plan on spending $20,000 to make it a great car, he wrote . This includes a valve job, a flywheel , a spark-plug wire set , an alternator pulley set , a major service , new shocks , front arms due to a bushing issue that can make the steering wheel shake , a fix for the vacuum port in the engine , a new rear wing accordian and -sometimes- it's drive mechanism, the windscreen outer seals , a steering rack when it leaks , the cooling-fan resistors , and possibly the climate head control unit. I think that covers the main items. At the end of the day , it's a pretty damn good car.
He went on to say that he feels the GT3 is great because it has the good engine , like the GT2 and turbo , and that he'll buy one some day. His views on the M96/97 motors are extreme. You know , Porsche never allowed us to race with that junk engine in the boxster and 996.. with it's flat oil pan.
I responded that there are a lot of us out there with Porsches with those 'junk' engines who are enjoying the hell out of them. No less than eight people writing for the magazine have purchased the modern cars- both new and used- withM 96/97 motors for daily use. None of us have experienced engine failures, though some of us have had serious oil leaks. There are also a lot of people using M96 flat sixes on race tracks- for everything from DE to track days to Grand-Am pro racing.Personally , I feel the new Porsches are like other cars, having "engines like all cars' engines"- and that the original , split case 911 engine was something really special.
Well Bruce , we've gone around and around about this from the beginning, ever since you bought that blue Boxster, responded my friend. I agree that the 996 abd Boxster are the best handling cars out there. I'm just not used to all the Porsche engine problems- but I'll concede that cost of the 996 engine replacement versus the 993 valve job work out to a similar number. I looked at it that way. I tell everyone , with the choices out there , I would pick Porsche over everything else ,too ...
You should look at , sit in and drive a 993 , 996 and Boxster to see what you like. Whatever you choose , be ready for some potentially hefty bills down the road. If the prospect of big bills scare you , I'd strongly recommend buying a late-model Porsche with a warranty , or maybe even a new Boxster if you can get a discount....
It's basically a techie (called Bruce!) answering a question sent to him asking his view on the best Porsche to get for a budget of $40k.
Mods , if I'm not supposed to be posting stuff from mags , apologies , please feel free to delete....
"Buy the newest , best car you can afford" has been my advice ever since the 911 SC was introduced in 1978. While this advice was never intended for enthusiasts who are after a specific model or a model from a specific period, I feel it probably still applies for people like you. And for $40,000 it will come down to a car from the late 1990's or early 2000's. That means 993, 996 or Boxster- and there isn't a loser in the bunch.
Your friend should be able to find a wonderful example of any of these models .as much as I've always loved 911's I'd probably buy the newest Boxter S I could find for $40k . With Boxster resale values being what they are, you can probably find a very new one - possibly even a new base Boxster.
My recommendation reminds me of 'the great controversy ', which which has been raging over the various problems with both the last of the aircooled cars , the 993 and the new watercooled 986, 996 , 987 , 997's.Everyone has their views on whether the final aircooled cars are better, but I keep thinking about an e-mail exchange I had with a friend in the porsche repair and racing business recently , someone for whom I have great respect.
I tell everyone looking to buy a 993, that they're probably the best car that Porsche has ever built, but to plan on spending $20,000 to make it a great car, he wrote . This includes a valve job, a flywheel , a spark-plug wire set , an alternator pulley set , a major service , new shocks , front arms due to a bushing issue that can make the steering wheel shake , a fix for the vacuum port in the engine , a new rear wing accordian and -sometimes- it's drive mechanism, the windscreen outer seals , a steering rack when it leaks , the cooling-fan resistors , and possibly the climate head control unit. I think that covers the main items. At the end of the day , it's a pretty damn good car.
He went on to say that he feels the GT3 is great because it has the good engine , like the GT2 and turbo , and that he'll buy one some day. His views on the M96/97 motors are extreme. You know , Porsche never allowed us to race with that junk engine in the boxster and 996.. with it's flat oil pan.
I responded that there are a lot of us out there with Porsches with those 'junk' engines who are enjoying the hell out of them. No less than eight people writing for the magazine have purchased the modern cars- both new and used- withM 96/97 motors for daily use. None of us have experienced engine failures, though some of us have had serious oil leaks. There are also a lot of people using M96 flat sixes on race tracks- for everything from DE to track days to Grand-Am pro racing.Personally , I feel the new Porsches are like other cars, having "engines like all cars' engines"- and that the original , split case 911 engine was something really special.
Well Bruce , we've gone around and around about this from the beginning, ever since you bought that blue Boxster, responded my friend. I agree that the 996 abd Boxster are the best handling cars out there. I'm just not used to all the Porsche engine problems- but I'll concede that cost of the 996 engine replacement versus the 993 valve job work out to a similar number. I looked at it that way. I tell everyone , with the choices out there , I would pick Porsche over everything else ,too ...
You should look at , sit in and drive a 993 , 996 and Boxster to see what you like. Whatever you choose , be ready for some potentially hefty bills down the road. If the prospect of big bills scare you , I'd strongly recommend buying a late-model Porsche with a warranty , or maybe even a new Boxster if you can get a discount....
ballcock said:
I have no interest in churlish schoolboy jibes so lets refrain from them.
LIAR! Spoiler
Edited by DucatiGary on Friday 10th November 12:20
I suspect that Bruce is Bruce Anderson. See www.amazon.co.uk/Porsche-911-Performance-Handbook-Handbooks/dp/076030033X/sr=8-1/qid=1163163561/ref=sr_1_1/202-0207719-7391861?ie=UTF8&s=books
would it be pedantic of me to mention at this point that technically neither of these engines were ever air cooled. Im pretty sure the 911 was *oil cooled*, rather than water - the air just provided the heat exchange mechanism.
Please tell me if im horribly wrong, but its Friday afternoon, ive had a couple of pints at lunch and this always irks me when the "air cooled" jibes are levvied.
R.
Please tell me if im horribly wrong, but its Friday afternoon, ive had a couple of pints at lunch and this always irks me when the "air cooled" jibes are levvied.
R.
muzaa said:
Doesnt the air cool the oil?
Yup. But this is where my confusion/ultimate point lies. If a 996 uses a block with water channels cut into it, through which cooling water is circulated - thus cooling the engine and the water is ultimately passed through a rad which via heat exchange cools said cooling water.
And the 996 is "water cooled"
Then, given that the 993 et al use oil channels rather than water to cool the engine and that oil is cooled by air circulated over heat sinks via air exchange which cools said cooling oil.
Why is the 993 "air cooled", rather than "oil cooled".
Its pedantic in the extreme i know. But come on it confuses me, much like Peter Andre's re-release of "Mysterious Girl" confused me. If anyone could explain it, i will pay them in Beer.
R.
Edited by M@verick on Friday 10th November 14:35
M@verick said:
technically neither of these engines were ever air cooled.
im no porsche expert at all but yes they are. air cooled means the block/head (hotbits) are cooled by air flowing over them. the air fan is pretty obvious on the back of the engine. yes these cars also have oil coolers. the later water cooled cars (like most cars) will have coolant in a jacket around the hotbits which is cooled by the radiator. some of the later cars (if not all i dont know) will also have oil coolers.
francisb said:
M@verick said:
technically neither of these engines were ever air cooled.
im no porsche expert at all but yes they are. air cooled means the block/head (hotbits) are cooled by air flowing over them. the air fan is pretty obvious on the back of the engine. yes these cars also have oil coolers. the later water cooled cars (like most cars) will have coolant in a jacket around the hotbits which is cooled by the radiator. some of the later cars (if not all i dont know) will also have oil coolers.
Hmmm. Ill ponder this one - im not sure youve won me over yet. A Friday afternoon pub lunch has rendered me unable to focus on my argument / non argument currently.
R.
M@verick said:
Hmmm. Ill ponder this one - im not sure youve won me over yet. A Friday afternoon pub lunch has rendered me unable to focus on my argument / non argument currently.
R.
9m air cooled head (like a go cart engine) (there arnt internal jackets circulating cooling oil which i think you might imagine ?)
water cooled looks like any other engine - the water channels are on the inside
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