Why do GT3s get thrashed in sports car racing?
Discussion
Watched the Dubai round of the FIA GT championship yesterday, and once again was left confused as to the rules of each class.
What really confuses me is the fact that GT3s on public track days and amateur competitions tend to leave everything bar Radicals and high-powered Caterhams standing (Ferraris, Astons and Corvettes included), so how come they occupy the lowest division of sports car racing?
I assume the reason is the racing Astons, Ferraris and Corvettes are not true to their road going likenesses, whereas the GT3s are?
What really confuses me is the fact that GT3s on public track days and amateur competitions tend to leave everything bar Radicals and high-powered Caterhams standing (Ferraris, Astons and Corvettes included), so how come they occupy the lowest division of sports car racing?
I assume the reason is the racing Astons, Ferraris and Corvettes are not true to their road going likenesses, whereas the GT3s are?
.. Shows you all I know .. I thought GT1 was the class that 911 ran in ..Truckosaurus said:
The Astons, 'vettes and big Ferraris are running in GT1 and the 911s are in GT2.
The GT2 are much similar to the roadcars on which they are based, whereas the GT1 cars are purpose built racing cars.
The 911s classmates are the Ferrari F430 and things like the Panoz Esperante.
The GT2 are much similar to the roadcars on which they are based, whereas the GT1 cars are purpose built racing cars.
The 911s classmates are the Ferrari F430 and things like the Panoz Esperante.
Nope. Still don't get it. If the 430 is in the same class as the GT3, how come they're so far ahead in the standings?
My experience on non-competitive track days against 430s is they just get in the way. Same goes for any Ferrrari - granted, the drivers may not have been that experienced, but even when the driving ability is evenly matched, I have not been troubled. Still confused...
I think the simple answer is that the F430 is a faster car at the moment, though some RSRs did finish ahead of some F430s in the last race so it isn't that big a difference.
www.fiagt.com/results.php?event=10&season=2006&session=Race%20Result
www.fiagt.com/results.php?event=10&season=2006&session=Race%20Result
Truckosaurus said:
The Astons, 'vettes and big Ferraris are running in GT1 and the 911s are in GT2.
The GT2 are much similar to the roadcars on which they are based, whereas the GT1 cars are purpose built racing cars.
The 911s classmates are the Ferrari F430 and things like the Panoz Esperante.
The GT2 are much similar to the roadcars on which they are based, whereas the GT1 cars are purpose built racing cars.
The 911s classmates are the Ferrari F430 and things like the Panoz Esperante.
hmm.. not really an expert in FIA GT racing either but I thought there is a GT1, GT2 and GT3 category...
Edited by Ghibli Cup on Monday 20th November 10:16
The 430 used in GT racing this year is Ferrari's latest offering, whereas the Porsche is about to be replaced, i.e. next year there will be a new 997 RSR as was tested in this year's Spa 24 hr. Currently the 430 has a performace advantage over the now quite old, apart from upgrades over the years, 996 RSR.
It is believed/hoped by Porsche and Porsche fans alike that the new RSR will have that extra performance to take on its rivals. The 996 RSR was a race winner many times over the years, only now in its final year losing a little of its competetive edge.
However, although the GT2 class is more like its road going equivilent than the GT1 cars, they are still proper race cars. So the Ferrari you seeing winning on track is nothing like the 430 you see at track days. I don't know the techincal differences, but for one the race car has a conventional LSD instead of the electronic diff found on the road car.
Edited by spb2 on Monday 20th November 15:51
I think the F430 racing in the series is simply a quicker car than the outgoing 996 variant. The 996 dominated for what, 6-7 years? During that same time span, it was both outgoing F355s and the F360 that was the competition, and they got regularly beaten year in, year out. I think this is the first year for the F430? It should be a quicker car given the resource F can give to that car as a new contender. Next year will be more interesting with the 997 vs F430.
Ghibli Cup said:
hmm.. not really an expert in FIA GT racing either but I thought there is a GT1, GT2 and GT3 category...
I does, although GT3 has been racing separately this season, and the cars are much more strictly controlled to equalise performance. (Interestingly, the 997 is the baseline vehicle...)
There hasn't been a Porsche top-level GT class entry in major international GT racing since the death of the air-cooled 911GT2s and the semi-prototype GT1s of the early nineties.
The shear numbers of 996 in every GT race worldwide shows it is still very much the car to beat.
Truckosaurus said:
The shear numbers of 996 in every GT race worldwide shows it is still very much the car to beat.
At that time the 430 was the more developed car.
The question is how much progress Porsche will make over the winter.
In addition to its half-litre bigger engine, the 430 has got inherently more effective aero.
The other stuff you can work around, but those two factors are tougher to overcome.
So, flemke, are we saying that an adequately skilled track day punter would be quicker round a big circuit in a 430 than a GT3 (even a 997), assuming same tyres? Or is there in fact little relationship between the road version and the GT2 version (of either car)?
And extending the point, I notice that the GT1 cars (Astons and Corvettes) are substantially quicker than either the Porsches or Ferraris. Presumably these are nothing like their road going brethren? (And again, I have been on track with Z06s and others - whilst undeniably quick, the GT3s are still the weapon of choice for the amateur pedaller).
And extending the point, I notice that the GT1 cars (Astons and Corvettes) are substantially quicker than either the Porsches or Ferraris. Presumably these are nothing like their road going brethren? (And again, I have been on track with Z06s and others - whilst undeniably quick, the GT3s are still the weapon of choice for the amateur pedaller).
Harris_I said:
Truckosaurus said:
The Astons, 'vettes and big Ferraris are running in GT1 and the 911s are in GT2.
The GT2 are much similar to the roadcars on which they are based, whereas the GT1 cars are purpose built racing cars.
The 911s classmates are the Ferrari F430 and things like the Panoz Esperante.
The GT2 are much similar to the roadcars on which they are based, whereas the GT1 cars are purpose built racing cars.
The 911s classmates are the Ferrari F430 and things like the Panoz Esperante.
Nope. Still don't get it. If the 430 is in the same class as the GT3, how come they're so far ahead in the standings?
My experience on non-competitive track days against 430s is they just get in the way. Same goes for any Ferrrari - granted, the drivers may not have been that experienced, but even when the driving ability is evenly matched, I have not been troubled. Still confused...
How new is the F430 GT2? How old is the 996 GT3 RSR? And FWIW, the RSRs have been holding their own in the ALMS this year, despite their age.
Wait for next season and the introduction of the 997 GT3 RSR and things will return to their natural order.
Harris_I said:
So, flemke, are we saying that an adequately skilled track day punter would be quicker round a big circuit in a 430 than a GT3 (even a 997), assuming same tyres? Or is there in fact little relationship between the road version and the GT2 version (of either car)?
And extending the point, I notice that the GT1 cars (Astons and Corvettes) are substantially quicker than either the Porsches or Ferraris. Presumably these are nothing like their road going brethren? (And again, I have been on track with Z06s and others - whilst undeniably quick, the GT3s are still the weapon of choice for the amateur pedaller).
No, the GT1s are quite different from the road cars. To start with, the driver sits probably half a metre farther back than what is standard in the road car equivalent. All body parts are carbon, fewer restrictions on the engines - which are much bigger, fewer aero restrictions, bigger tyres, carbon/carbon brakes. They're proper racing cars. And extending the point, I notice that the GT1 cars (Astons and Corvettes) are substantially quicker than either the Porsches or Ferraris. Presumably these are nothing like their road going brethren? (And again, I have been on track with Z06s and others - whilst undeniably quick, the GT3s are still the weapon of choice for the amateur pedaller).
As for 430/GT3, the recorded times around the 'ring or Hockenheim are roughly 10/1.5 seconds apart. However, the faster GT3 times were achieved with Mich. PSCs, whilst the 430, IINM, would have run on fairly normal Pirelli road tyres. Balance the tyre difference and I'd guess that there is not a lot in it for the average punter.
In the race cars, the 430 has more scope for diffuser effectiveness and is also less likely to understeer, at least at higher speeds. Then you have the extra half-litre of displacement.
I hope that the Porsches kick the Ferrari ass's ass, but the fact is that at Spa the 430 was the quicker car.
flemke said:
Harris_I said:
So, flemke, are we saying that an adequately skilled track day punter would be quicker round a big circuit in a 430 than a GT3 (even a 997), assuming same tyres? Or is there in fact little relationship between the road version and the GT2 version (of either car)?
And extending the point, I notice that the GT1 cars (Astons and Corvettes) are substantially quicker than either the Porsches or Ferraris. Presumably these are nothing like their road going brethren? (And again, I have been on track with Z06s and others - whilst undeniably quick, the GT3s are still the weapon of choice for the amateur pedaller).
No, the GT1s are quite different from the road cars. To start with, the driver sits probably half a metre farther back than what is standard in the road car equivalent. All body parts are carbon, fewer restrictions on the engines - which are much bigger, fewer aero restrictions, bigger tyres, carbon/carbon brakes. They're proper racing cars. And extending the point, I notice that the GT1 cars (Astons and Corvettes) are substantially quicker than either the Porsches or Ferraris. Presumably these are nothing like their road going brethren? (And again, I have been on track with Z06s and others - whilst undeniably quick, the GT3s are still the weapon of choice for the amateur pedaller).
As for 430/GT3, the recorded times around the 'ring or Hockenheim are roughly 10/1.5 seconds apart. However, the faster GT3 times were achieved with Mich. PSCs, whilst the 430, IINM, would have run on fairly normal Pirelli road tyres. Balance the tyre difference and I'd guess that there is not a lot in it for the average punter.
In the race cars, the 430 has more scope for diffuser effectiveness and is also less likely to understeer, at least at higher speeds. Then you have the extra half-litre of displacement.
I hope that the Porsches kick the Ferrari ass's ass, but the fact is that at Spa the 430 was the quicker car.
But as Le Mans, and the Petit (iirc) shows, at least you can change the wheels on the Porsche without resorting to a chisel!
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