new or repaired 996 engine - increases or decreases value?
Discussion
I would value your input on what difference in value you would place on a 996 original car (say 2000 car 70K covered), fitted with a rebuilt engine, a used engine and a new engine (and we have done several of each option).
You see - once again we are preparing options for the owner of a 996 with engine problems. This can be quite difficult, because if the damage is relatively minor, it is initially worth stripping it down for further investigation. But if after weighing up all the options a new engine is still being considered - then the old engine has to be re-assembled again (taking many hours that someone must pay for) to return to Porsche or a hefty surcharge (around £2500) is made to add to the costs. This is why - with Porsche's hourly rate - they often condemn an engine at an early stage (whereas we can still rebuild it) because that position makes good sense for them and their customer (and is not intended as a criticism).
However - due to our lower overhead costs, we can offer more options for our customers to consider. A typical example would be a low mileage 996 with a broken internal component and bits of metal floating around the engine - needing a complete strip down for rebuild. Just a minor problem requires some new parts, gasket sets, cleaning and inspecting every other part, a few small slightly damaged parts renewed and a full rebuild and get running again, road test etc. Some cars with the old intermediate shaft drive (for example) may need other parts (like a new crank @ £2500)just to be compatible with the only new spares offered. So a rebuild can still be quite expensive.
Another option is to replace other vulnerable parts (known to fail on these engines) at the same time - say all the chains, new big ends and mains, de-coke all valves, heads, pistons and recut valve seats etc. In addition - we may suggest modifications to prevent the bores getting bigger and eventually cracking (see notes at the end).
There is also the option of a good low mileage used engine (although obvious risks attached) and the option of a complete new Porsche engine - being the most expensive.
A customer then has to weigh up the benefits and dissadvantages of a range of costs - usually somewhere between about £4500 to £10,000 (+Vat) and their obvious response is to consider how spending more on a more expensive option may influence the eventual re-sale value - presenting me with a question I am unable to answer.
I would expect most people to realise that it is better to have a rebuilt or new engine than an old worn out one - but then I rebuild them so I see things differently as an engineer than the vast majority of owners - and my opinion is not therefore valuable. I realise that others may be uncomfotable about owning a car that had an engine fault and may be reluctant to buy it (even though it is probably better for the repair or replacement engine than one that has not gone wrong yet but may do in the future) - and even I find that my enthusiasm wanes a bit when offered a car with a rebuilt or new engine - even though that reaction is illogical.
So it is time for a survey - that will enable me to answer my customers questions.
How do you feel the different engine options would influence you?
Finally - just adding to a previous discussion - having completed a very comprehensive study of the problem of cylinders cracking (resulting in a 45 page report) I think I now understand the problems better and can see why some engines are more vulnerable than others and what to do about it. As a result - I do now expect an increasing number of engines to eventually fail through a cracked liner or too much piston clearance - but I do not yet know the mileage, age or numbers that will become the norm (only time will confirm eventually).
For various reasons - I am not prepared to make the report public - but the conclusion is not as bad as many may assume - because most Porsche engines previously needed a rebuild of some sorts around 80K-150K (rings on 3.2 Carerra's. oil leaks on 964's, cams on 968's etc, head gaskets 944's etc) - and in this case something may have to be done about the cylinder bores as well as a few other typical weaknesses. With Porsche providing a warranty for up to 10 years and most engines lasting until over that age - it simply becomes part of the cost/value equation for values and depreciation for older Porsche's.
Previously, rebuilt engines on older cars were a benefit that was valued on purchase - perhaps with slightly older cars. However - if I am right about my expectations - then this exercise will become more important as time goes by and more customers are being forced to consider these issues and asking the same questions.
Thanks in advance,
Baz Hartech
You see - once again we are preparing options for the owner of a 996 with engine problems. This can be quite difficult, because if the damage is relatively minor, it is initially worth stripping it down for further investigation. But if after weighing up all the options a new engine is still being considered - then the old engine has to be re-assembled again (taking many hours that someone must pay for) to return to Porsche or a hefty surcharge (around £2500) is made to add to the costs. This is why - with Porsche's hourly rate - they often condemn an engine at an early stage (whereas we can still rebuild it) because that position makes good sense for them and their customer (and is not intended as a criticism).
However - due to our lower overhead costs, we can offer more options for our customers to consider. A typical example would be a low mileage 996 with a broken internal component and bits of metal floating around the engine - needing a complete strip down for rebuild. Just a minor problem requires some new parts, gasket sets, cleaning and inspecting every other part, a few small slightly damaged parts renewed and a full rebuild and get running again, road test etc. Some cars with the old intermediate shaft drive (for example) may need other parts (like a new crank @ £2500)just to be compatible with the only new spares offered. So a rebuild can still be quite expensive.
Another option is to replace other vulnerable parts (known to fail on these engines) at the same time - say all the chains, new big ends and mains, de-coke all valves, heads, pistons and recut valve seats etc. In addition - we may suggest modifications to prevent the bores getting bigger and eventually cracking (see notes at the end).
There is also the option of a good low mileage used engine (although obvious risks attached) and the option of a complete new Porsche engine - being the most expensive.
A customer then has to weigh up the benefits and dissadvantages of a range of costs - usually somewhere between about £4500 to £10,000 (+Vat) and their obvious response is to consider how spending more on a more expensive option may influence the eventual re-sale value - presenting me with a question I am unable to answer.
I would expect most people to realise that it is better to have a rebuilt or new engine than an old worn out one - but then I rebuild them so I see things differently as an engineer than the vast majority of owners - and my opinion is not therefore valuable. I realise that others may be uncomfotable about owning a car that had an engine fault and may be reluctant to buy it (even though it is probably better for the repair or replacement engine than one that has not gone wrong yet but may do in the future) - and even I find that my enthusiasm wanes a bit when offered a car with a rebuilt or new engine - even though that reaction is illogical.
So it is time for a survey - that will enable me to answer my customers questions.
How do you feel the different engine options would influence you?
Finally - just adding to a previous discussion - having completed a very comprehensive study of the problem of cylinders cracking (resulting in a 45 page report) I think I now understand the problems better and can see why some engines are more vulnerable than others and what to do about it. As a result - I do now expect an increasing number of engines to eventually fail through a cracked liner or too much piston clearance - but I do not yet know the mileage, age or numbers that will become the norm (only time will confirm eventually).
For various reasons - I am not prepared to make the report public - but the conclusion is not as bad as many may assume - because most Porsche engines previously needed a rebuild of some sorts around 80K-150K (rings on 3.2 Carerra's. oil leaks on 964's, cams on 968's etc, head gaskets 944's etc) - and in this case something may have to be done about the cylinder bores as well as a few other typical weaknesses. With Porsche providing a warranty for up to 10 years and most engines lasting until over that age - it simply becomes part of the cost/value equation for values and depreciation for older Porsche's.
Previously, rebuilt engines on older cars were a benefit that was valued on purchase - perhaps with slightly older cars. However - if I am right about my expectations - then this exercise will become more important as time goes by and more customers are being forced to consider these issues and asking the same questions.
Thanks in advance,
Baz Hartech
Certainly a rebuilt or a new engine would make the car more attractive to me as a purchaser.
Would I pay any more for it though? Probably not.
If you ask more money for the car, you're then competing with newer models. Buyers, rightly or wrongly, may assume a newer car is less likely to have issues than an older one. Plus, the newer the car, the more years of OPC warranty that is available to it.
Jamie
magic torch said:
Certainly a rebuilt or a new engine would make the car more attractive to me as a purchaser.
Would I pay any more for it though? Probably not.
agree with the above..
From my perspective, i dont know how i would feel with the 'used engine replacement'...
By the way, my car is heading for 84k... should i be worried?
very interesting topic
Based purely on gut instinct rather than any engineering logic (you have provided all of that above and are far more qualified than me to do so), and as a relatively well-informed PH member who has the utmost respect for Hartech (this has a big effect on my views) my thoughts are:
Ideal - a car which has had a minor engine fault, eg. stuttering/cold start issue - Hartech strip engine down, done a full clean-up and inspection, replaced vulnerable parts - car now runs perfect and Hartech cover their work with warranty
Next best - engine never missed a beat, never had issues
Either I would buy at market price (say £30k for comparison), certainly no premium though
Next best - brand new engine
To me car is unoriginal and I would fear over other componentry (suspicion is previous owner not sympathetic / car had a hard life even though might just have ben bad luck)
Would buy but would expect £3-5k discount
Next - rebuilt after big issue eg with new intermediate shaft etc or low mileage used engine replacement
Both of these I would be wary of, would either avoid and would only buy for significant discount say £22k ish
Also I would be reluctant to buy from a garage that had not done the repairs v a private punter even if they had the recipts from your good selves - unless I could get a letter from Hartech TO ME guaranteeing as such, so there was a legal relationship direct between garage and me - if you see what I mean.
Based purely on gut instinct rather than any engineering logic (you have provided all of that above and are far more qualified than me to do so), and as a relatively well-informed PH member who has the utmost respect for Hartech (this has a big effect on my views) my thoughts are:
Ideal - a car which has had a minor engine fault, eg. stuttering/cold start issue - Hartech strip engine down, done a full clean-up and inspection, replaced vulnerable parts - car now runs perfect and Hartech cover their work with warranty
Next best - engine never missed a beat, never had issues
Either I would buy at market price (say £30k for comparison), certainly no premium though
Next best - brand new engine
To me car is unoriginal and I would fear over other componentry (suspicion is previous owner not sympathetic / car had a hard life even though might just have ben bad luck)
Would buy but would expect £3-5k discount
Next - rebuilt after big issue eg with new intermediate shaft etc or low mileage used engine replacement
Both of these I would be wary of, would either avoid and would only buy for significant discount say £22k ish
Also I would be reluctant to buy from a garage that had not done the repairs v a private punter even if they had the recipts from your good selves - unless I could get a letter from Hartech TO ME guaranteeing as such, so there was a legal relationship direct between garage and me - if you see what I mean.
Edited by Adam B on Wednesday 29th November 10:53
Rebuilt & warranted engine would be attractive. I would not pay more than ~£500-£750 for such a car though. Without a warranty on the engine I would want to know that the engine had been significantly re-worked with all the common/possible weakpoints replaced. Otherwise I'd treat the engine as being "patched up" rather than being truly over-hauled and trustworthy.
So, either it needs to be a warranted rebuilt, or a fairly "dramatic" rebuid. The problem with the latter of these two options is that most buyers would not be able to disern the extend of a rebuilt and know if it were now trustworthy. That said - neither would I- unless YOU told /explained the details to me! On this board you've earned a lot of credability, but for average Joe Bloggs you may not have that. So, I think an engine warranty is the only way to go.
A car with an engine that was replaced with an unmodified OLD standard one, would be a turn-off for me. I just be expecting the next bang.
If it were replaced with the later / evoled 996 engine design, then that would be OK.
Your comments/ insuations about your views developing towards the 996 likely needing a rebuild at some point - just like all previous models is interesting. The fact that rebuild options (rather than replace) are now appearing is re-assuring to me.
Cheers
Jon
So, either it needs to be a warranted rebuilt, or a fairly "dramatic" rebuid. The problem with the latter of these two options is that most buyers would not be able to disern the extend of a rebuilt and know if it were now trustworthy. That said - neither would I- unless YOU told /explained the details to me! On this board you've earned a lot of credability, but for average Joe Bloggs you may not have that. So, I think an engine warranty is the only way to go.
A car with an engine that was replaced with an unmodified OLD standard one, would be a turn-off for me. I just be expecting the next bang.
If it were replaced with the later / evoled 996 engine design, then that would be OK.
Your comments/ insuations about your views developing towards the 996 likely needing a rebuild at some point - just like all previous models is interesting. The fact that rebuild options (rather than replace) are now appearing is re-assuring to me.
Cheers
Jon
Edited by JonA on Wednesday 29th November 11:06
My take on it is that I would walk away from any Performance car thats had to have major engine work done, like a rebuild or even a new engine. I would be worried about what sort abuse the car has had to have left it in this state.
Thats probably an unwarranted concern I agree, but I would guess somewhere around that 8/10 punters would walk away from any potential purchase knowing that, thus decreasing the price.
Remember, most people who buy porkers don't even know about Pistonheads and aren't likely to care about the technical aspects of engine rebuilding. As far as they/I would be concerned, its damaged goods.
A
Thats probably an unwarranted concern I agree, but I would guess somewhere around that 8/10 punters would walk away from any potential purchase knowing that, thus decreasing the price.
Remember, most people who buy porkers don't even know about Pistonheads and aren't likely to care about the technical aspects of engine rebuilding. As far as they/I would be concerned, its damaged goods.
A
Hi Baz
Having owned an S2000 that needed to have a new engine I have to say that most people were turned off by it when I came to sell it. Most seemed to assume that I as an owner had blown it up and therefore must have in so doing mis-treated the car.
I would say that most people who have owned a performance vehice previously would not be afraid and in fact be happier with a car that has had a recent re-build (as I would). But most customers who are new to performance car ownership would find it all a bit off putting.
Hope that helps you...
Having owned an S2000 that needed to have a new engine I have to say that most people were turned off by it when I came to sell it. Most seemed to assume that I as an owner had blown it up and therefore must have in so doing mis-treated the car.
I would say that most people who have owned a performance vehice previously would not be afraid and in fact be happier with a car that has had a recent re-build (as I would). But most customers who are new to performance car ownership would find it all a bit off putting.
Hope that helps you...
A replacement engine from Porsche still under warranty is certainly an inducement to purchase and may attract a premium of around £1,000 but no more. If the engine has been replaced (new) but is not in warranty it is an inducement to purchase.
If a second hand engine has been fitted I would see that as a bad thing. Every single second hand engine I`ve ever seen regardless of age of car has done around 40k miles or less and yet we see very few 40k mile 10-20 year old cars so forgive my sceptism Re: how much work a used engine has done!
Repaired engines are a slightly harder one to make a call on. Up to now people have simply bitten the bullet & bought new engines (at quite reasonable prices) from Porsche. Porsche have subsequently increased the cost of a new engine and so we will see more units repaired rather than replaced. I certainly don`t thing a repaired engine will be viewed as a bad thing providing the work has been carried out by a recognised and reputable marque specialist. Possibly if steps are taken to beef up any potential weaknesses in the original design the repaired engine may also be afforded some form of small premium or at worst seen as an inducement to purchase.
If the cost saving (repair v new), to an owner is in the order of £4-5k then I would imagine repair is the way to go, certainly the owner won`t see £4-5k more back for their car. If the repair came with the same 2 year guarantee that a new engine comes with then it`s smiles all round.
Henry
If a second hand engine has been fitted I would see that as a bad thing. Every single second hand engine I`ve ever seen regardless of age of car has done around 40k miles or less and yet we see very few 40k mile 10-20 year old cars so forgive my sceptism Re: how much work a used engine has done!
Repaired engines are a slightly harder one to make a call on. Up to now people have simply bitten the bullet & bought new engines (at quite reasonable prices) from Porsche. Porsche have subsequently increased the cost of a new engine and so we will see more units repaired rather than replaced. I certainly don`t thing a repaired engine will be viewed as a bad thing providing the work has been carried out by a recognised and reputable marque specialist. Possibly if steps are taken to beef up any potential weaknesses in the original design the repaired engine may also be afforded some form of small premium or at worst seen as an inducement to purchase.
If the cost saving (repair v new), to an owner is in the order of £4-5k then I would imagine repair is the way to go, certainly the owner won`t see £4-5k more back for their car. If the repair came with the same 2 year guarantee that a new engine comes with then it`s smiles all round.
Henry
With my PH hat on , (i.e. having a little knowledge of the pitfalls) I would definitely buy a Hartech recon'd engine with ALL the bits done (.. It'd have to include the intermediate and the cylinders) BEFORE I'd buy a used 70k engine or a 70k car with a new engine. I'd personally feel that most , if not all of the weaknesses had been ironed out , and I was getting a very sorted motor.
However ,(hat off again!!) 996 buyers with (even a little) technical knowledge are IMHO in the minority , and would be turned off by the thoughts of buying a car with a new or reconditioned engine.
I'm sure Baz , that you've already figured out when posting this that you're really only surveying less than 1% of 996 owners , all of whom (unusually enough!!) are quite enthusiastic about their cars, so I don't know how useful or otherwise this survey is to you.
However ,(hat off again!!) 996 buyers with (even a little) technical knowledge are IMHO in the minority , and would be turned off by the thoughts of buying a car with a new or reconditioned engine.
I'm sure Baz , that you've already figured out when posting this that you're really only surveying less than 1% of 996 owners , all of whom (unusually enough!!) are quite enthusiastic about their cars, so I don't know how useful or otherwise this survey is to you.
henry-f said:
I certainly don`t thing a repaired engine will be viewed as a bad thing providing the work has been carried out by a recognised and reputable marque specialist. Possibly if steps are taken to beef up any potential weaknesses in the original design the repaired engine may also be afforded some form of small premium or at worst seen as an inducement to purchase.
In addition, a comprehensive report of what was done and perhaps not done (eg recommended). Only with all the above would I pay a premium, warranty or not.
I had a similar decision to make recently. I took water into my engine and bent 2 con rods and ploughed skewed pistons through the aluminum cylinder liners, scoring the engine block on my 968.
Insurance confirmed I was covered or the damage, so my decision was what to do. I could take it to Porsche OPC who would fit a brand new short block engine, or have it rebuild by a specialist. The OPC option was quoted at about £12k plus whatever else they found needed replacing along the way (write off territory) and the rebuild from the specialist was circa £6k all in.
I went for the rebuild. This was based on the conclusion no mechanic at an OPC was likely to have done an oil change on a 968, let alone a full engine out rebuild from the ground up. And by going to a specialist I got a lot of "extras" too that weren't there when it was new and Porsche wouldn't have done for me.
When I phoned the garage up that ended up doing the work for me, I explained that I wasn't paying the bill, and if I came out if this with a lightened, balanced, fully blueprinted engine, I'd think that was a good thing. They asked if I'd like steel liners, race gaskets, balanced flywheel and clutch, rebored valve seats, new valve guides, new variocam tensioners and a custom engine map too? Needless to say, I knew I'd found the right place.
So IMHO, a rebuild is much better. But if someone else is paying, make sure you ask the right questions first!
Insurance confirmed I was covered or the damage, so my decision was what to do. I could take it to Porsche OPC who would fit a brand new short block engine, or have it rebuild by a specialist. The OPC option was quoted at about £12k plus whatever else they found needed replacing along the way (write off territory) and the rebuild from the specialist was circa £6k all in.
I went for the rebuild. This was based on the conclusion no mechanic at an OPC was likely to have done an oil change on a 968, let alone a full engine out rebuild from the ground up. And by going to a specialist I got a lot of "extras" too that weren't there when it was new and Porsche wouldn't have done for me.
When I phoned the garage up that ended up doing the work for me, I explained that I wasn't paying the bill, and if I came out if this with a lightened, balanced, fully blueprinted engine, I'd think that was a good thing. They asked if I'd like steel liners, race gaskets, balanced flywheel and clutch, rebored valve seats, new valve guides, new variocam tensioners and a custom engine map too? Needless to say, I knew I'd found the right place.
So IMHO, a rebuild is much better. But if someone else is paying, make sure you ask the right questions first!
Edited by willdew on Wednesday 29th November 13:32
henry-f said:
A replacement engine from Porsche still under warranty is certainly an inducement to purchase and may attract a premium of around £1,000 but no more. If the engine has been replaced (new) but is not in warranty it is an inducement to purchase.
I'll make sure I come to you when I'm looking for a swap then Henry!
Thank you all for really sensible and very helpful responses.
The warranty situation (that most of you want) for a rebuilt engine is complex because whereas we always guarantee our workmanship and stand by anything we have done that may prove to be the cause of a failure (so far there havn't been any) - where rebuild options are concerned and the owner decides upon only some of them - the parts they declined to have replaced (or the modifications they declined to have undertaken) - if they are then the cause of a failure would be entirely unfair to expect us to cover the subsequent rebuild cost.
You see some owners will only want the bare minimum to repair the car and probably will then sell it. Although we may not like that outcome - we cannot tell in advance what is actually wrong or what they may decide to do - so I don't think it would be possible to weed these all out in advance and we probably just have to live with it because we cannot force them into a solution that we may prefer - when it involves replacing parts that are actually OK at that time.
Others want a better job doing so they can keep it - but then how far do we go with our reccomendations? If a cylinder liner is already stretched a little and we offer to fit restraining rings to try and prevent it going any further - how responsible should we be if they still stretched or cracked some years later? After all if Porsche with all their resources built an engine with this problem - why should we - in attempting to modify it to imporove it - carry the full can if it eventually fails? We could offer instead - new crankcases (@ around £2000 to £2500 depending upon the model) but then if we also recommended replacing the intermediate shaft (which may have to include a crankshaft) the cost would get close to a new engine anyway.
If - to protect our interests - we just offered new engines - customers would be stuck with a very expensive option that most respondents say would not or would hardly affect their valuation and be stuck with a serious financial problem.
So far the "used" engines we have fitted have all been reliable (recently one with 20K and documents but it was a later engine from a newer car and we had to change all the wiring loom, throttle body etc to use it). We have also had to change wiring looms when fitting new engines - as there is not a stock of every variant imediately available (for example early tiptronic and manual looms were different). So we often have to cover the cost to strip new and old top ends down anyway (to swap).
Bearing in mind that the vast majority of engines are perfectly OK up to 100K at least (just a very small number fail) - and lets say it turns out in the fulness of time that the average predictable failure becomes 130K - then a used engine having covered say 50K has a very good statistical chance of reaching 130K before it is a problem. But you do need reliable used engine suppliers (which we have had to date).
This argument seems to apply to all the failures - none seem to affect most cars - just the odd failure here and there of one of perhaps 6 typical weaknesses, chains, big ends, cylinder liners, valve springs, tensioner pads and intermediate shaft bearings.
What we actually need from Porsche is short engines. We don't need all the new wiring looms, power steering pump, alternator, inlet manifolds etc, etc because we are not dealing with customers in the first few years of a car's life anymore - but increasingly older cars and more impecunious owners. So a short engine with new crankcases, crank, rods, pistons, intermediate shaft, chains etc would solve most of the problems and priced at say £3K (or sudsidised even lower) would enable most of the problems to be solved for a long time (or remain outside of the main crankcase and therefore be much less expensive to repair if and when they do crop up).
Perhaps an intermedite short engine including heads and cams etc could also be offered - but we don't want all those auxiliaries (which we often have to swap around anyway = more cost).
Short engines would also standardise supply and allow minimal stocking to supply all needs - very good for Porsche.
I can understand why full complete engines were all that was available in the early days and perhaps Porsche plan this next step anyway - as part of the supply for ageing cars. I hope so because it would help so many owners and would not actually cost them anything.
Meanwhile we will continue to try and find ways to help those owners who simply cannot afford a new replacement engine and didn't have a warranty or the car is now too old. In doing so we are prepared to take some risk (as in all business dealings) and warrant what we do - but I think there is still a limit to what we should be expected to cover in some situations - or if not we would have to add an amount to each engine price to cover potential future failures (which we have not done yet). Yes there is no free lunch and anyone offering anything by way of cover - gets the customer to pay for it somewhere or somehow.
Remember that customer cars on our Lifetime Maintenance Plan do not pay labour for repairs (unless it is for a very small number of exclusions - or a very common fault that afflicts most cars in time) - so there is an element of warranty for our permanent customers.
This - coupled with our "sensible" approach to business - makes it unlikely that we would fall out with anyone if a failure of a rebuilt engine did occur - but we would seek a sensible, fair and reasonable solution - in all the circumstances. It's either that or don't help people really.
What do you think?
Baz Haretch
The warranty situation (that most of you want) for a rebuilt engine is complex because whereas we always guarantee our workmanship and stand by anything we have done that may prove to be the cause of a failure (so far there havn't been any) - where rebuild options are concerned and the owner decides upon only some of them - the parts they declined to have replaced (or the modifications they declined to have undertaken) - if they are then the cause of a failure would be entirely unfair to expect us to cover the subsequent rebuild cost.
You see some owners will only want the bare minimum to repair the car and probably will then sell it. Although we may not like that outcome - we cannot tell in advance what is actually wrong or what they may decide to do - so I don't think it would be possible to weed these all out in advance and we probably just have to live with it because we cannot force them into a solution that we may prefer - when it involves replacing parts that are actually OK at that time.
Others want a better job doing so they can keep it - but then how far do we go with our reccomendations? If a cylinder liner is already stretched a little and we offer to fit restraining rings to try and prevent it going any further - how responsible should we be if they still stretched or cracked some years later? After all if Porsche with all their resources built an engine with this problem - why should we - in attempting to modify it to imporove it - carry the full can if it eventually fails? We could offer instead - new crankcases (@ around £2000 to £2500 depending upon the model) but then if we also recommended replacing the intermediate shaft (which may have to include a crankshaft) the cost would get close to a new engine anyway.
If - to protect our interests - we just offered new engines - customers would be stuck with a very expensive option that most respondents say would not or would hardly affect their valuation and be stuck with a serious financial problem.
So far the "used" engines we have fitted have all been reliable (recently one with 20K and documents but it was a later engine from a newer car and we had to change all the wiring loom, throttle body etc to use it). We have also had to change wiring looms when fitting new engines - as there is not a stock of every variant imediately available (for example early tiptronic and manual looms were different). So we often have to cover the cost to strip new and old top ends down anyway (to swap).
Bearing in mind that the vast majority of engines are perfectly OK up to 100K at least (just a very small number fail) - and lets say it turns out in the fulness of time that the average predictable failure becomes 130K - then a used engine having covered say 50K has a very good statistical chance of reaching 130K before it is a problem. But you do need reliable used engine suppliers (which we have had to date).
This argument seems to apply to all the failures - none seem to affect most cars - just the odd failure here and there of one of perhaps 6 typical weaknesses, chains, big ends, cylinder liners, valve springs, tensioner pads and intermediate shaft bearings.
What we actually need from Porsche is short engines. We don't need all the new wiring looms, power steering pump, alternator, inlet manifolds etc, etc because we are not dealing with customers in the first few years of a car's life anymore - but increasingly older cars and more impecunious owners. So a short engine with new crankcases, crank, rods, pistons, intermediate shaft, chains etc would solve most of the problems and priced at say £3K (or sudsidised even lower) would enable most of the problems to be solved for a long time (or remain outside of the main crankcase and therefore be much less expensive to repair if and when they do crop up).
Perhaps an intermedite short engine including heads and cams etc could also be offered - but we don't want all those auxiliaries (which we often have to swap around anyway = more cost).
Short engines would also standardise supply and allow minimal stocking to supply all needs - very good for Porsche.
I can understand why full complete engines were all that was available in the early days and perhaps Porsche plan this next step anyway - as part of the supply for ageing cars. I hope so because it would help so many owners and would not actually cost them anything.
Meanwhile we will continue to try and find ways to help those owners who simply cannot afford a new replacement engine and didn't have a warranty or the car is now too old. In doing so we are prepared to take some risk (as in all business dealings) and warrant what we do - but I think there is still a limit to what we should be expected to cover in some situations - or if not we would have to add an amount to each engine price to cover potential future failures (which we have not done yet). Yes there is no free lunch and anyone offering anything by way of cover - gets the customer to pay for it somewhere or somehow.
Remember that customer cars on our Lifetime Maintenance Plan do not pay labour for repairs (unless it is for a very small number of exclusions - or a very common fault that afflicts most cars in time) - so there is an element of warranty for our permanent customers.
This - coupled with our "sensible" approach to business - makes it unlikely that we would fall out with anyone if a failure of a rebuilt engine did occur - but we would seek a sensible, fair and reasonable solution - in all the circumstances. It's either that or don't help people really.
What do you think?
Baz Haretch
Baz,
If I owned an '00 996 with 70K miles, I think my repair/replace decision might be based on how long I had owned the car and how long I intended to keep it afterwards.
If the owner is particularly attached to the car and intends to keep it for several years afterwards, a new engine might be worth the £10k 'investment' to him - but it is unlikely, in my opinion, that a '70k miles car' with a factory fresh engine will ever be worth more than 110% of the value of an equivalent car with an otherwise healthy original engine (ie. £27.5k versus £25k).
However, I believe that this £2.5k premium is likely to stay with the car for at least a few more years..... Consider what you might expect to pay for an 8 year old car with 20,000miles on a 2 year old factory supplied engine?? Ie. you might be prepared to pay £23.5k versus £21k for the same car with 90,000miles on its original engine (especially if it had a new clutch done at the same time.)
Personally, I would go in favour of saving money up front and would choose one of your rebuilds. You have a great reputation and potentially, you could provide some kind of transferrable warranty if the customer was inclined to sell the car within a particular time period.
I would not expect a discount on a car that had been subject to a comprehensive rebuild by someone like you but then again, I wouldn't pay a premium for it either - unless there was some kind of transferrable warranty.
Saying that, I might be tempted to pay a small premium if there was a proven performance gain following the rebuild.... I am not sure if you do this kind of thing yourself but I would assume that having major work done on an engine is an 'opportunity' to consider upgrading internally and then bolting something on (such as a Supercharger!) just like RUF do!
If I owned an '00 996 with 70K miles, I think my repair/replace decision might be based on how long I had owned the car and how long I intended to keep it afterwards.
If the owner is particularly attached to the car and intends to keep it for several years afterwards, a new engine might be worth the £10k 'investment' to him - but it is unlikely, in my opinion, that a '70k miles car' with a factory fresh engine will ever be worth more than 110% of the value of an equivalent car with an otherwise healthy original engine (ie. £27.5k versus £25k).
However, I believe that this £2.5k premium is likely to stay with the car for at least a few more years..... Consider what you might expect to pay for an 8 year old car with 20,000miles on a 2 year old factory supplied engine?? Ie. you might be prepared to pay £23.5k versus £21k for the same car with 90,000miles on its original engine (especially if it had a new clutch done at the same time.)
Personally, I would go in favour of saving money up front and would choose one of your rebuilds. You have a great reputation and potentially, you could provide some kind of transferrable warranty if the customer was inclined to sell the car within a particular time period.
I would not expect a discount on a car that had been subject to a comprehensive rebuild by someone like you but then again, I wouldn't pay a premium for it either - unless there was some kind of transferrable warranty.
Saying that, I might be tempted to pay a small premium if there was a proven performance gain following the rebuild.... I am not sure if you do this kind of thing yourself but I would assume that having major work done on an engine is an 'opportunity' to consider upgrading internally and then bolting something on (such as a Supercharger!) just like RUF do!
Edited by Mogulboy on Wednesday 29th November 15:39
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