ever had doubts about Porsches?
Discussion
Try reading this tale of woe and misery -
www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=33033&f=23&h=0
My God how can a company that makes things so badly and for a hefty price still be in business ?
I'll never moan again about things going wrong on my 993. (of course I reserve the right to do exactly this... but it sounds good)
www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=33033&f=23&h=0
My God how can a company that makes things so badly and for a hefty price still be in business ?
I'll never moan again about things going wrong on my 993. (of course I reserve the right to do exactly this... but it sounds good)
I haven't owned a TVR due to much the same sentiment, however charismatic the cars undoubtedly are.
However it's apples / oranges here since the new speed 6 engines are exactly that - new designs. Comparing the reliability of the motor with the 993 engine, which has decades of development by a much bigger company behind it, is pretty unfair to TVR.
I do remember rumours about unexpected grenading of the first water-cooled boxster and 996 engines, with subsequent hush-ups by Porsche. There doesn't seem to be any substitute for development where engines are concerned, though I am no engineer...
I drove a T350C yesterday and however great it looked, it felt agricultural. Reminded me of the Triumph GT6 though - not a bad thing!
However it's apples / oranges here since the new speed 6 engines are exactly that - new designs. Comparing the reliability of the motor with the 993 engine, which has decades of development by a much bigger company behind it, is pretty unfair to TVR.
I do remember rumours about unexpected grenading of the first water-cooled boxster and 996 engines, with subsequent hush-ups by Porsche. There doesn't seem to be any substitute for development where engines are concerned, though I am no engineer...
I drove a T350C yesterday and however great it looked, it felt agricultural. Reminded me of the Triumph GT6 though - not a bad thing!
Autocar, 26 March 2003, cheap fast cars, £20k and over section:
"Last of the over-engineered Porsches, last of the air-cooled cars and already a legend. Blend of speed, tactile thrills, and reliability still a match for any car on sale. Smaller than the current version; easier to thread down B-roads and better built. Strong residuals and Porsche's age-related servicing menu keep it relatively cheap to run.
The only problem is, once you've owned a 993, nothing else will do."
'Nuff said.
VS
"Last of the over-engineered Porsches, last of the air-cooled cars and already a legend. Blend of speed, tactile thrills, and reliability still a match for any car on sale. Smaller than the current version; easier to thread down B-roads and better built. Strong residuals and Porsche's age-related servicing menu keep it relatively cheap to run.
The only problem is, once you've owned a 993, nothing else will do."
'Nuff said.
VS
Just to add my twopenneth.
Over the past four years I have owned a Chim 400, followed by a Cerbie 6 and latterly a Tuscan.
The Chim was fairly reliable i.e. only niggles, the cerbie 6 which I bought as a six month old demo car had three engines in 11 months (and 9000 miles).
I fell in love with the Tuscan's looks and assumed that the S6's engine problems would have been ironed out by Jan 2001 and took the plunge and bought a new one.
Bearing in mind the car cost £42k, the build quality was appalling, i.e. sqeaks/rattles, trim falling off and whilst the engine didn't require major surgery it went out of tune every 1000 miles or so, necessitating a trip to the dealers for warranty work at least every month.
In the end after 11 months I had totally lost confidence with the car and ended up taking a £12k loss just to get rid.
I now drive a 2000 996 C2, which whilst not as raw/exciting or as drop dead gorgeous as the Tuscan is ten times better 95% of the time.
My point is that there is no excuse for poor quality and I fear that there will come a point when the majority of TVR's customers realise that there is a lot of quality and exciting new or nearly new motors that can be bought for £40k, without the trauma of TVR ownership - this is now being reflected in their poor residuals.
Owning a TVR was my childhood dream - I lived 300 yards from the TVR factory for 17 years !. I was fortunate enough to realise that dream, I persevered and would love a T350 but never again !
Over the past four years I have owned a Chim 400, followed by a Cerbie 6 and latterly a Tuscan.
The Chim was fairly reliable i.e. only niggles, the cerbie 6 which I bought as a six month old demo car had three engines in 11 months (and 9000 miles).
I fell in love with the Tuscan's looks and assumed that the S6's engine problems would have been ironed out by Jan 2001 and took the plunge and bought a new one.
Bearing in mind the car cost £42k, the build quality was appalling, i.e. sqeaks/rattles, trim falling off and whilst the engine didn't require major surgery it went out of tune every 1000 miles or so, necessitating a trip to the dealers for warranty work at least every month.
In the end after 11 months I had totally lost confidence with the car and ended up taking a £12k loss just to get rid.
I now drive a 2000 996 C2, which whilst not as raw/exciting or as drop dead gorgeous as the Tuscan is ten times better 95% of the time.
My point is that there is no excuse for poor quality and I fear that there will come a point when the majority of TVR's customers realise that there is a lot of quality and exciting new or nearly new motors that can be bought for £40k, without the trauma of TVR ownership - this is now being reflected in their poor residuals.
Owning a TVR was my childhood dream - I lived 300 yards from the TVR factory for 17 years !. I was fortunate enough to realise that dream, I persevered and would love a T350 but never again !
I know of 993 engines that have grenaded, and everyone knows that there are the odd problem with Porsches.
Whilst carefully trying to keep this thread along the lines of a more interesting/sophisticated TVR vs Porsche comparison than normal (lest I would have locked it), the big problem with Tivs doesn't seem to be build quality... it's build CONSISTENCY.
I'm sure many hand built poroducts are similarly affected, but only this can explain why TVR owners are so militant when the reliability card is played... the fact is, for some, TVRs are beautifully reliable and a treasure to own.
But like I mentioned with the roulette wheel earlier, what proportion peaches to lemons?
If I was getting a new TVR, I would pay a friendly tech to go over the car with a fine tooth comb and rebuild as necessary. It may cost an extra 15k on top but it would be worth it. To be honest, the prospect of a Tuscan with a BMW M3 vanos straight six, Stack instrument pod and sensible window switches appeals. I'd give the other bits back to the factory
Whilst carefully trying to keep this thread along the lines of a more interesting/sophisticated TVR vs Porsche comparison than normal (lest I would have locked it), the big problem with Tivs doesn't seem to be build quality... it's build CONSISTENCY.
I'm sure many hand built poroducts are similarly affected, but only this can explain why TVR owners are so militant when the reliability card is played... the fact is, for some, TVRs are beautifully reliable and a treasure to own.
But like I mentioned with the roulette wheel earlier, what proportion peaches to lemons?
If I was getting a new TVR, I would pay a friendly tech to go over the car with a fine tooth comb and rebuild as necessary. It may cost an extra 15k on top but it would be worth it. To be honest, the prospect of a Tuscan with a BMW M3 vanos straight six, Stack instrument pod and sensible window switches appeals. I'd give the other bits back to the factory
An interesting debate...I'll add my experiences. I had a TVR Griff 500 for a couple of years which was a lot of fun and luckily reliable - however, I put this down to the fact that it had the old Rover V8 and being a 1998 model was better built than earlier cars.
Personally I couldn't justify spending £50k on a Tuscan when a 996 is only £5k more - no comparison in my opinion. However, in the sub £30k bracket TVR's offer good value for money and a lot of fun if you don't mind a few niggles.
Its amazing how poor the build is on some expensive cars. I own an early Diablo and for a car that was £150k new its has very poor build (worse even than the Countach I had before). I think they must have traded on the name here.
I'n now chopping this in for a new GT3 which represents fantastic value for money IMHO. Why would anyone spend the same money on a Tuscan R is beyond me, as it would lose £20k as soon as you picked it up.
This will be my first Porsche - having visited the showroom I was stunned at the quality of the products. I just think they are unbeatable at any price.
Personally I couldn't justify spending £50k on a Tuscan when a 996 is only £5k more - no comparison in my opinion. However, in the sub £30k bracket TVR's offer good value for money and a lot of fun if you don't mind a few niggles.
Its amazing how poor the build is on some expensive cars. I own an early Diablo and for a car that was £150k new its has very poor build (worse even than the Countach I had before). I think they must have traded on the name here.
I'n now chopping this in for a new GT3 which represents fantastic value for money IMHO. Why would anyone spend the same money on a Tuscan R is beyond me, as it would lose £20k as soon as you picked it up.
This will be my first Porsche - having visited the showroom I was stunned at the quality of the products. I just think they are unbeatable at any price.
OK, I admit it, I thought I'd post a teaser to generate a bit of life... Hmmm not too much reaction but then this is the Porsche forum. Perhaps I should try one of the TVR forums ? Non ? perhaps not.
I did read that particular post with horror though. Of course any product can go wrong, eg wiring looms, DMEs etc, but what bothered me especially about this chap's story was the lack of support he got from the manufacturer/dealer. Gulp.
I did read that particular post with horror though. Of course any product can go wrong, eg wiring looms, DMEs etc, but what bothered me especially about this chap's story was the lack of support he got from the manufacturer/dealer. Gulp.
OK, I'll bite. Well not really.
I've owned 3 TVR's, all Cerberas. In 50,000 miles I've had one breakdown which was resolved by AA in 20 minutes (broken throttle cable bracket!). Zero returns to factory. I've always gone for the AJP8 as I felt after years in the Tuscan Challenge it ought to be reasonably sorted. This assumption seems to have paid off. From new there are a few niggles that need sorting but for something that has been built by hand this doesn't surprise or bother me. Beyond that they've been fairly straight forward to own. Also I just got 75% of the original purchase price back on my 2 year old Cerbera. I couldn't class that as bad depreciation!!
A friend owns a Boxster S. I think the car is great and on a recent track day found it to be huge fun. At another track event I got talking to a guy with a 2002 911 Turbo (excuse my using the wrong number is it 996?!) Fantastic car but he wouldn't drive it with the computer stability/traction stuff switched off! He admitted to me that the thought of driving the Cerbera on circuit without traction control or ABS was scary. I have a LOT of respect for Porsches but for me they are too good! Sounds daft I know but I like the fact that I have to work at getting the best out of my Cerbera.
Now watch my 2 week old Cerbera breakdown on me this weekend in spectacular fashion!!
I've owned 3 TVR's, all Cerberas. In 50,000 miles I've had one breakdown which was resolved by AA in 20 minutes (broken throttle cable bracket!). Zero returns to factory. I've always gone for the AJP8 as I felt after years in the Tuscan Challenge it ought to be reasonably sorted. This assumption seems to have paid off. From new there are a few niggles that need sorting but for something that has been built by hand this doesn't surprise or bother me. Beyond that they've been fairly straight forward to own. Also I just got 75% of the original purchase price back on my 2 year old Cerbera. I couldn't class that as bad depreciation!!
A friend owns a Boxster S. I think the car is great and on a recent track day found it to be huge fun. At another track event I got talking to a guy with a 2002 911 Turbo (excuse my using the wrong number is it 996?!) Fantastic car but he wouldn't drive it with the computer stability/traction stuff switched off! He admitted to me that the thought of driving the Cerbera on circuit without traction control or ABS was scary. I have a LOT of respect for Porsches but for me they are too good! Sounds daft I know but I like the fact that I have to work at getting the best out of my Cerbera.
Now watch my 2 week old Cerbera breakdown on me this weekend in spectacular fashion!!
Unfortunately it's been done to death many times.
911newbie said: OK, I admit it, I thought I'd post a teaser to generate a bit of life... Hmmm not too much reaction but then this is the Porsche forum. Perhaps I should try one of the TVR forums ? Non ? perhaps not.
I'm sure we all know cars of any make that have been a nightmare: M5 engines, Lancia/Fiat corrosion or electrics, 360F1 clutches....
The great thing about a like-minded group of people as on this forum is that everyone looks for something different from their cars: TVRs are for some, Porsches for others.
I'll let you know when something drops off my Porker estate and I have to use the Cerbera instead.
And whilst I'm here.....
What is the most common question that you Porker guys get asked when someone comes to admire your car in the petrol station?
Obviously for the TVR crew it is: "Isn't it unreliable?".
Oh sorry, I forgot: no-one feels suitable emotive to want to come over and talk about yours....
What is the most common question that you Porker guys get asked when someone comes to admire your car in the petrol station?
Obviously for the TVR crew it is: "Isn't it unreliable?".
Oh sorry, I forgot: no-one feels suitable emotive to want to come over and talk about yours....
jeremyc said: And whilst I'm here.....
What is the most common question that you Porker guys get asked when someone comes to admire your car in the petrol station?
Obviously for the TVR crew it is: "Isn't it unreliable?".
Oh sorry, I forgot: no-one feels suitable emotive to want to come over and talk about yours....
"Do you have a small penis?"
Or maybe that was just me
jeremyc said: And whilst I'm here.....
What is the most common question that you Porker guys get asked when someone comes to admire your car in the petrol station?
I tend to get attractive young ladies coming over to say what a lovely colour it is.
And no, i'm not kidding!
VS
Viola Metallic wide body 993. Gotta love the "fat ass".
Jeremy's previous point really emphasised that it's about Quality Consistency with TVRs... as much as I'd like to rib him about Y158 MPH, it has performed faultlessly from a reliability point of view. A peach, if you like.
However, TVR tend to use their warranty as a 'Get Out of Jail Free' card, and rely on it too heavily. You never expect to use a warranty when you buy a Sony TV, but people renew them religiously on Tivs, perhaps because the factory would rather have a problem later on for themsleves and their dealers, rather than invest a bit more care earlier on in the build process?
ie 'not our problem once it's out of the gates, and if it comes back, we'll deal with it'
>> Edited by domster (moderator) on Friday 28th March 15:46
However, TVR tend to use their warranty as a 'Get Out of Jail Free' card, and rely on it too heavily. You never expect to use a warranty when you buy a Sony TV, but people renew them religiously on Tivs, perhaps because the factory would rather have a problem later on for themsleves and their dealers, rather than invest a bit more care earlier on in the build process?
ie 'not our problem once it's out of the gates, and if it comes back, we'll deal with it'
>> Edited by domster (moderator) on Friday 28th March 15:46
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