Sorry, another PCCB failure question
Discussion
Apologies for the long post
Prior to purchasing my current steed, (2002 996 GT2) I had the car inspected by Porsche Centre Reading.
Primarily this was to ensure there were no defects which would preclude me putting an Official Porsche Warranty on the car.
Two other secondry concerns were addressed by my request that they should carefully inspect and report on the condition of the PCCBs, and that they carry out a thorough road test to ensure there were no second gear pop-out faults with the transmission.
Having carried out the inspection, Reading rang me to report the following : -
The only work required to allow the issue of a warranty was one of the horns "tones" would need replacing.
Apart from that there were no further issues with the car apart from the tyres being close to the recommended wear limits and the front brake pads being 70 % worn.
At this point I specifically enquired as to the condition of the PCCBs and the transmission.
I was given the following answers.
The PCCBs are fine apart from one front disc has a small chip on its edge which will not be detrimental to either its performance or longevity.
We don't normally test the transmissions on these cars for second gear pop put issues as we normally concentrate on them being notchy going into second when cold. We have thoroughly road tested the vehicle and can find no sign of either of these complaints.
On this basis, I paid for the inspection over the phone and took out the warranty.
I collected the car on Monday 4th December and drove it back to N. Wales (approx 180 miles)
Whilst driving back I used a stretch of road that has three roundabouts all within 1/2 -3/4 mile of each other.
It being late at night I was able "to make considerable progress" between each roundabout.
As I approached the second roundabout I felt the force required on the brake pedal to slow the car was considerably more than that I had become used to on my MK1 GT3 (which had been fitted with new front and rear discs/pads within the last 5000 miles)
On the approach to the third roundabout I wondered if I'd get the car slowed down sufficiently to negotiate said island.
The following morning I inspected the discs and noticed there were several dark and very slightly "rough to the touch" patches on the NSF disc and to a lesser degree on the OSF disc.
I spoke to Steve McHale at JZM and discussed the problem. He was forthright and said the discs were scrap as the ceramic was obviously just starting to de-laminate thus leaving the silicon carbide exposed.
At this I booked the car in to have the JZM Alcon steel disc conversion fitted and thought no more about it.
I should point out I've read plenty of the horror stories about PCCB failures (both here and on Rennlist) on road and track, and had thus thought I'd pull the PCCBs off the car at the earliest opportunity for "safe" keeping.
Late last week I used the car to do a 120 mile round trip and found the performance of the brakes to be deteriorating rapidly. (so much so that I came close to getting very "intimate" with the rear of a Vauxhall Corsa on the approach to a roundabout)
Having had the car inspected and passed by OPC Reading I rang them and told them I was most displeased as it appeared that the PCCBs had failed prior to their inspection yet they had given them a clean bill of health.
There response was thus : - Hmmm strange, you specifically asked us to check them didn't you ?
I replied I had.
They suggested I take the car to my local OPC and get them to take pictures of the failed discs, which they'd then send off to Technical Services at Porsche GB................................
I took the car down to Solihull OPC this morning (approx 70 miles) and became aware the brakes were getting noisier by the mile................
On my arrival at Solihull I explained the situation fully, after which they inspected and photographed the discs.
They were shocked at the condition and said they had clearly failed. (By now the surface of the NSF disc was more akin to that of a broken brick in places.
If I'm honest I have no issue with replacing the PCCBs with Alcons (which I hope will be more reliable both in terms of there durability, pedal feel and stopping power when hot or cold)
The real issue is that having requested OPC Reading carry out a specific inspection of the discs, they passed them as being serviceable when clearly they weren't Now, less than 400 road miles later, they have failed totally.
It would be beneficial to have a brand new pair of PCCB discs in stock to put on the car should I ever wish to sell it.
Is it worth attempting to seek legal redress against Reading OPC for their apparent negligence in not inspecting and reporting the true condition of the discs prior to my purchase of the car ?
Prior to purchasing my current steed, (2002 996 GT2) I had the car inspected by Porsche Centre Reading.
Primarily this was to ensure there were no defects which would preclude me putting an Official Porsche Warranty on the car.
Two other secondry concerns were addressed by my request that they should carefully inspect and report on the condition of the PCCBs, and that they carry out a thorough road test to ensure there were no second gear pop-out faults with the transmission.
Having carried out the inspection, Reading rang me to report the following : -
The only work required to allow the issue of a warranty was one of the horns "tones" would need replacing.
Apart from that there were no further issues with the car apart from the tyres being close to the recommended wear limits and the front brake pads being 70 % worn.
At this point I specifically enquired as to the condition of the PCCBs and the transmission.
I was given the following answers.
The PCCBs are fine apart from one front disc has a small chip on its edge which will not be detrimental to either its performance or longevity.
We don't normally test the transmissions on these cars for second gear pop put issues as we normally concentrate on them being notchy going into second when cold. We have thoroughly road tested the vehicle and can find no sign of either of these complaints.
On this basis, I paid for the inspection over the phone and took out the warranty.
I collected the car on Monday 4th December and drove it back to N. Wales (approx 180 miles)
Whilst driving back I used a stretch of road that has three roundabouts all within 1/2 -3/4 mile of each other.
It being late at night I was able "to make considerable progress" between each roundabout.
As I approached the second roundabout I felt the force required on the brake pedal to slow the car was considerably more than that I had become used to on my MK1 GT3 (which had been fitted with new front and rear discs/pads within the last 5000 miles)
On the approach to the third roundabout I wondered if I'd get the car slowed down sufficiently to negotiate said island.
The following morning I inspected the discs and noticed there were several dark and very slightly "rough to the touch" patches on the NSF disc and to a lesser degree on the OSF disc.
I spoke to Steve McHale at JZM and discussed the problem. He was forthright and said the discs were scrap as the ceramic was obviously just starting to de-laminate thus leaving the silicon carbide exposed.
At this I booked the car in to have the JZM Alcon steel disc conversion fitted and thought no more about it.
I should point out I've read plenty of the horror stories about PCCB failures (both here and on Rennlist) on road and track, and had thus thought I'd pull the PCCBs off the car at the earliest opportunity for "safe" keeping.
Late last week I used the car to do a 120 mile round trip and found the performance of the brakes to be deteriorating rapidly. (so much so that I came close to getting very "intimate" with the rear of a Vauxhall Corsa on the approach to a roundabout)
Having had the car inspected and passed by OPC Reading I rang them and told them I was most displeased as it appeared that the PCCBs had failed prior to their inspection yet they had given them a clean bill of health.
There response was thus : - Hmmm strange, you specifically asked us to check them didn't you ?
I replied I had.
They suggested I take the car to my local OPC and get them to take pictures of the failed discs, which they'd then send off to Technical Services at Porsche GB................................
I took the car down to Solihull OPC this morning (approx 70 miles) and became aware the brakes were getting noisier by the mile................
On my arrival at Solihull I explained the situation fully, after which they inspected and photographed the discs.
They were shocked at the condition and said they had clearly failed. (By now the surface of the NSF disc was more akin to that of a broken brick in places.
If I'm honest I have no issue with replacing the PCCBs with Alcons (which I hope will be more reliable both in terms of there durability, pedal feel and stopping power when hot or cold)
The real issue is that having requested OPC Reading carry out a specific inspection of the discs, they passed them as being serviceable when clearly they weren't Now, less than 400 road miles later, they have failed totally.
It would be beneficial to have a brand new pair of PCCB discs in stock to put on the car should I ever wish to sell it.
Is it worth attempting to seek legal redress against Reading OPC for their apparent negligence in not inspecting and reporting the true condition of the discs prior to my purchase of the car ?
Edited by slippydiff on Thursday 14th December 23:39
slippydiff said:
Having carried out the inspection, Reading rang me to report the following : -
blah, blah
At this point I specifically enquired as to the condition of the PCCBs and the transmission.
I was given the following answers.
The PCCBs are fine apart from one front disc has a small chip on its edge which will not be detrimental to either its performance or longevity.
We don't normally test the transmissions on these cars for second gear pop put issues as we normally concentrate on them being notchy going into second when cold. We have thoroughly road tested the vehicle and can find no sign of either of these complaints.
more blah, blah
Is it worth attempting to seek legal redress against Reading OPC for their apparent negligence in not inspecting and reporting the true condition of the discs prior to my purchase of the car ?
blah, blah
At this point I specifically enquired as to the condition of the PCCBs and the transmission.
I was given the following answers.
The PCCBs are fine apart from one front disc has a small chip on its edge which will not be detrimental to either its performance or longevity.
We don't normally test the transmissions on these cars for second gear pop put issues as we normally concentrate on them being notchy going into second when cold. We have thoroughly road tested the vehicle and can find no sign of either of these complaints.
more blah, blah
Is it worth attempting to seek legal redress against Reading OPC for their apparent negligence in not inspecting and reporting the true condition of the discs prior to my purchase of the car ?
Personally, I'd make a right pain in the arse of myself to get at least the cost of the inspection back though ideally I'd want the disks swapped for new at no cost.
Reading about all the misery these carbon disks have caused I'd put them in a box and stick Alcons on.
Good luck!
is the gear pop out problem a common fault? Mine had this issue before I bought it and came to me with new gears 1 and 2 by OPC. If you have paid for an inspection and been informed that the brakes were ok and they weren't then whats the benefit of you having the inspection - I am thinking more from a legal stand point - they should pay for new ones surely? I think given that you paid them for a warranty too they should help you out, its unreasonable for you to be happy with the fact that you now need to spend 10k to replace the front ceramics (I know you will get alcons but you bought a car and paid a price that assumingly reflected the fact that it had ceramics).........it may be worth you having this conversation with them at Porsche Reading - not on the phone, as when you are sat in that showroom with a slightly raised voice of disappointment they REALLY will want to calm you down as any showroom customers will be put off by the fact that you are an upset customer...check out your home insurance - you often get free legal advise, I think you may have a case. Loads of people will tell you you don't have a leg to stand on but the fact is you paid them to check them which they did and they made a mistake - unacceptable, I wouldn't be happy at just a refund, worse case scenario go for something that doesnt cost them much but costs you alot - eg free next service. I bought a 964 from a garage which started dumping oil it wasnt covered by the warranty but I made them pay - sale of goods act 1979 - know your rights sir, goodluck!
did you get any paperwork with the 111 check confirming clean bill of health? Any specific notes re. checking PCCB on it? Just phone conversations I suspect which is the problem - do we really have to record our conversations with OPCs to get treate correctly?
Anyway I am jumping the gun, go to Reading sit with DP and explain what has happened and what you expect to be done (new set of PCCBs and refund of check cost). Keep calm and if no joy threaten SOGA and legal action, against the OPC and Porsche UK.
Really amazed at this incompetence as presumably any quick check would have revealed the problem and would have not cost Reading OPC anything to reveal to you.
Anyway I am jumping the gun, go to Reading sit with DP and explain what has happened and what you expect to be done (new set of PCCBs and refund of check cost). Keep calm and if no joy threaten SOGA and legal action, against the OPC and Porsche UK.
Really amazed at this incompetence as presumably any quick check would have revealed the problem and would have not cost Reading OPC anything to reveal to you.
francisb said:
the brakes failed on the way home! they owe you new brakes MINIMUM, i'd want a refund on the inspection too. as you present it; they either lied about doing an inspection and decided to wing it, carried out the inspection incompetently and sold goods unfit for purpose. IHMO
Im pretty sure slippy didnt actually buy the car from an OPC, merely had the 111 point inspection done for warranty purposes.
Nevertheless, I suspect he could argue that he would have never bought the car had the OPC told him of the brake problem. Either that or getting the sticker price reduced by £12k to cover the cost of the new PCCB's
WetWipe said:
francisb said:
the brakes failed on the way home! they owe you new brakes MINIMUM, i'd want a refund on the inspection too. as you present it; they either lied about doing an inspection and decided to wing it, carried out the inspection incompetently and sold goods unfit for purpose. IHMO
Im pretty sure slippy didnt actually buy the car from an OPC, merely had the 111 point inspection done for warranty purposes.
oh ok. they still sold an inspection unfit for purpose
Wet Wipe is totally correct, the car was not purchased from Reading OPC.
However as previously stated I made a specific request that they check the condition of the discs.
Either they did not carry out a thorough inspection (but the fact that they noted a small chip on one of discs edges would tend to indicate to the contrary)
My guess is it was clear to them the discs were failed (or in the early stages of failure)
but knowing there have been "issues" with them, they chose to "wing it" so as to avoid any claims by the previous owner (who was days away from taking delivery of his new car from them
) or indeed myself.
Either way, it would appear they have either been negligent or economical with the truth as to the true condition of the discs.
Adam, I have an invoice for £246.75 for the inspection.
I have the inspection list which has crosses (defect noted) next to brake lines /hoses (I wasn't notified of any brake line or hose issues
)
Brake pads (min 50%)
Brake shoes/discs condition (less 1mm wear)
No mention is made on the invoice of my specific request for a thorough inspection of the PCCBs condition or a roadtest to establish if any faults existed with the transmission. Yet in a subsequent phonecall (when I highlighted the issue with the brakes) the gentleman made it clear he was aware I'd requested just such a specific inspection.
Furthermore there is no written summary highlighting the fault with the horn, the chip in the brake disc or the failure of the alarm siren. (All were notified verbally over the phone)
A visit to/word with the good people at trading standards called for perhaps ?
However as previously stated I made a specific request that they check the condition of the discs.
Either they did not carry out a thorough inspection (but the fact that they noted a small chip on one of discs edges would tend to indicate to the contrary)
My guess is it was clear to them the discs were failed (or in the early stages of failure)
but knowing there have been "issues" with them, they chose to "wing it" so as to avoid any claims by the previous owner (who was days away from taking delivery of his new car from them
) or indeed myself. Either way, it would appear they have either been negligent or economical with the truth as to the true condition of the discs.
Adam, I have an invoice for £246.75 for the inspection.
I have the inspection list which has crosses (defect noted) next to brake lines /hoses (I wasn't notified of any brake line or hose issues
) Brake pads (min 50%)
Brake shoes/discs condition (less 1mm wear)
No mention is made on the invoice of my specific request for a thorough inspection of the PCCBs condition or a roadtest to establish if any faults existed with the transmission. Yet in a subsequent phonecall (when I highlighted the issue with the brakes) the gentleman made it clear he was aware I'd requested just such a specific inspection.
Furthermore there is no written summary highlighting the fault with the horn, the chip in the brake disc or the failure of the alarm siren. (All were notified verbally over the phone)
A visit to/word with the good people at trading standards called for perhaps ?
Edited by slippydiff on Friday 15th December 12:35
OPC Solihull were kind enough to give my PCCB's an extra look over after I read your previous and having had a few further tootles around the local roads 
, I find them awesome in comparison to my previous Turbo brakes.
Particularly this morning as I went to overtake a lorry and he decided he'd pop onto the same side of the road as me; thought it was all over and that one week of GT2 ownership was done.
, I find them awesome in comparison to my previous Turbo brakes. Particularly this morning as I went to overtake a lorry and he decided he'd pop onto the same side of the road as me; thought it was all over and that one week of GT2 ownership was done.
ballast said:
OPC Solihull were kind enough to give my PCCB's an extra look over after I read your previous and having had a few further tootles around the local roads , I find them awesome in comparison to my previous Turbo brakes.
Particularly this morning as I went to overtake a lorry and he decided he'd pop onto the same side of the road as me; thought it was all over and that one week of GT2 ownership was done.
, I find them awesome in comparison to my previous Turbo brakes. Particularly this morning as I went to overtake a lorry and he decided he'd pop onto the same side of the road as me; thought it was all over and that one week of GT2 ownership was done.
Glad you're enjoying it, did you say tootles or hurtles ? I'd suggest it's more likely the latter
Much as I'm enjoying the accelerative capabilities of my steed, the lack of brakes does blunt the experiece somewhat
!
................... 
clubsport said:
Those PCCB's seviceable???? How far away were they standing when they certified them serviceable....they look totally shot and clearly breaking down in front of your eyes.
CS, they've deteriorated badly in the last 300 miles or so, but the series of holes at 12 O' clock shows what they looked like when the inspection was carried out (there were other darker areas away from the holes that had obviously failed, albeit not to the degree that can be seen now)
It would appear Porsche AG have given instructions to all their franchisees/importers to "bury their heads in the sand"
and deny everything which may be seen to incriminate them regarding the whole PCCB farce.
Personally Slippydiff I am totally disgusted with Porsche that the ceramic disc fault was not noted at the time of the inspection regardless of whether you specifically requested that they examine the brake discs or not. That said it does not suprise me as I have heard various stories about Porsche Reading that would make all Porsche owners blood boil that I really cannot print as I would be accused of telling stories.
They have pulled stunts that the indies would not dream of doing for fear of being sued, kneecapped or worse. IMHO a good indie is far better than an OPC as their livelyhood depends on their reputation. With an OPC they unfortunately have a captive audience. Go for new ceramics and a refund at the least, good luck, Graeme
They have pulled stunts that the indies would not dream of doing for fear of being sued, kneecapped or worse. IMHO a good indie is far better than an OPC as their livelyhood depends on their reputation. With an OPC they unfortunately have a captive audience. Go for new ceramics and a refund at the least, good luck, Graeme
sleep envy said:
slippydiff said:
It would appear Porsche AG have given instructions to all their franchisees/importers to "bury their heads in the sand" and deny everything which may be seen to incriminate them regarding the whole PCCB farce.
Do they sell PCCB in the States?
Yes, they've had similar issues there too I believe.
Standard denial procedure seems to be : - Take photos of the discs for submission to the importer. Importer studies pictures and responds with "the brakes have failed due to missuse" and thus there's no case to answer, (as they weren't designed for use you've subjected them to.....)
In the early days the discs were replaced as a "goodwill gesture" NOT I hasten to add, under warranty thus sidestepping any inferred acceptance that the failure was due to a fault with the product itself (or indeed that any claims made for it in Porsches publicity blurb were misleading.
Edited by slippydiff on Tuesday 19th December 21:56
slippydiff said:
sleep envy said:
slippydiff said:
It would appear Porsche AG have given instructions to all their franchisees/importers to "bury their heads in the sand" and deny everything which may be seen to incriminate them regarding the whole PCCB farce.
Do they sell PCCB in the States?
Yes, they've had similar issues there too I believe.
Standard denial procedure seems to be : - Take photos of the discs for submission to the importer. Importer studies pictures and responds with "the brakes have failed due to missuse" and thus there's no case to answer, (as they weren't designed for use you've subjected them to.....)
In the early days the discs were replaced as a "goodwill gesture" NOT I hasten to add, under warranty thus sidestepping any inferred acceptance that the failure was due to a fault with the product itself (or indeed that any claims made for it in Porsches publicity blurb were misleading.
very sneaky considering they'd be upagainst a class action before anyone could say 'lawsuit'
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