Bad Service Schedule Invalidates Warranty?
Discussion
Hi All,
I am in the process of buying a 6 year old 996 cab (private sale). 51k miles on clock.
To cut a long story short, in order to secure the car from being part exchanged by the owner to a dealer, I agreed a solid price and paid a deposit to give the guy security that I would go through with the deal (so he didn't lose out on his part ex for a 997). The agreement was that as long as the paperwork was as described, and dependent on a second visual inspection of the car, then I would go ahead with rest of the payment.
The car was described as having a full service history and a recent and currentPorsche Warranty. Having received all the paper work by fax - it appears that in the service history the last two services were done with specialists. This would not be a major problem, however, the last two services were only minor services including the service that was done at 47,888. From my understanding this service should have been the major 48k mile service (always a biggy from what I have read with the 996). It has not been serviced since then in Apr 06. Shortly after this service, in Aug 06 the owner carried out the 111 check and paid for the Porsche Warranty.
From my understanding though, Porsche will not honour this warranty in the event of a claim because the service schedule has not been kept up correctly - they will say it is missing its major 48k service. I have heard that Porsche do not necessarily check that the car conforms to these T's and C's at the point of issuing the warranty. Therefore you only get stung by this when you actually try and claim. Can anyone confirm this or have had similar experiences?
IMO - this goes against the description and I am looking to pull out of the deal. 1. It has a suspect warranty. 2. It is not a complete Full SH and I am going to have to shell out for the big 48k service... Not happy... The only thing I can think of is for Porsche to provide written confirmation that will still honour the warranty given the current service history.
Any views on this?
Thanks!
I am in the process of buying a 6 year old 996 cab (private sale). 51k miles on clock.
To cut a long story short, in order to secure the car from being part exchanged by the owner to a dealer, I agreed a solid price and paid a deposit to give the guy security that I would go through with the deal (so he didn't lose out on his part ex for a 997). The agreement was that as long as the paperwork was as described, and dependent on a second visual inspection of the car, then I would go ahead with rest of the payment.
The car was described as having a full service history and a recent and currentPorsche Warranty. Having received all the paper work by fax - it appears that in the service history the last two services were done with specialists. This would not be a major problem, however, the last two services were only minor services including the service that was done at 47,888. From my understanding this service should have been the major 48k mile service (always a biggy from what I have read with the 996). It has not been serviced since then in Apr 06. Shortly after this service, in Aug 06 the owner carried out the 111 check and paid for the Porsche Warranty.
From my understanding though, Porsche will not honour this warranty in the event of a claim because the service schedule has not been kept up correctly - they will say it is missing its major 48k service. I have heard that Porsche do not necessarily check that the car conforms to these T's and C's at the point of issuing the warranty. Therefore you only get stung by this when you actually try and claim. Can anyone confirm this or have had similar experiences?
IMO - this goes against the description and I am looking to pull out of the deal. 1. It has a suspect warranty. 2. It is not a complete Full SH and I am going to have to shell out for the big 48k service... Not happy... The only thing I can think of is for Porsche to provide written confirmation that will still honour the warranty given the current service history.
Any views on this?
Thanks!
Its 48k or 4 years, quite often the big 48k service is done sooner as many Porsches don't do 12k per annum. The service book should have the stamps which state which service was done.
from memory, my old BoxsterS had its medium 24k service at 2 years on 10k due to the miles covered being so low
from memory, my old BoxsterS had its medium 24k service at 2 years on 10k due to the miles covered being so low
Edited by Adam B on Wednesday 3rd January 14:02
If porsche issued the warranty I think you're fine.
I had a similar situation on my 996 - once they sell you the warranty you have to keep servicing up to date with porsche parts (not main dealer), but it doesn't amtter what's happened up to that point.
Anything untoward should have been seen at the 111 point check. They're (supposed to be) pretty thorough.
I had a similar situation on my 996 - once they sell you the warranty you have to keep servicing up to date with porsche parts (not main dealer), but it doesn't amtter what's happened up to that point.
Anything untoward should have been seen at the 111 point check. They're (supposed to be) pretty thorough.
I know exactly where you are coming from and on principle you should either back out of the deal and expect a full refund of your deposit or adjust the purchase price of the car on the grounds that the car does not have a Full Service History and therefore not as described. You agreed to buy a car with FSH which means that it has been serviced according to Porsche schedules and although it has had services they have not been the required full services required at the relevant mileages. The service history issue is in addition to the warranty issue and I would get it in writing from the OPC warranty people that the warranty will be honoured in the event of a claim given its actual service history. I would let the seller sort all the above out. He's skimped on the servicing so let him sort the mess out.
Edited by elex on Wednesday 3rd January 01:27
My understanding is the same as Ragtop's. i.e if the servicing does not conform to Porsche's recommendations AFTER the 111 point check, it is invalidated. Doesn't matter what happens before as that's the point of them checking it. But best to confirm with your OPC.
Of course, irrespective of the warrantee, you may not want to pay the previously agreed price as it doesn't have the full and correct service history.
Of course, irrespective of the warrantee, you may not want to pay the previously agreed price as it doesn't have the full and correct service history.
diesel130 said:
My understanding is the same as Ragtop's. i.e if the servicing does not conform to Porsche's recommendations AFTER the 111 point check, it is invalidated. Doesn't matter what happens before as that's the point of them checking it. But best to confirm with your OPC.
Of course, irrespective of the warrantee, you may not want to pay the previously agreed price as it doesn't have the full and correct service history.
Of course, irrespective of the warrantee, you may not want to pay the previously agreed price as it doesn't have the full and correct service history.
Wot he sed.
If the warranty is issued then as long as the servicing is kept up to date following that, then you're fine. For example Lonman's famous CPU 1 GT2 had (allegedly) not been serviced at all for years - and if you took it to OPC and they passed it on the 111 pointer you could then have the warranty from then on.
That said, it is surpirsing how many 996s I have seen have been described as Full Porsche History by dealers (notably a well known Ferrari main dealer!!!) and when you check the book they're either (a) serviced very late or (b) are missing stamps on the airbag check/lifetime guarantee stamps/brake fluid change stamp.
I'd leave it if I were you. There are still a good number of 996s with full and I MEAN full OPC histories, all stamped up early. My own car, for example, was owned by a very wealthy bloke and serviced annually (but the full service NOT the Annual Check) for the first five years with mileage increments of 5,000 each year (i.e. 12k @ 5k, 24k @ 10k, 36k @ 15k, 48k @20k etc etc) and thereafter by me every 10,000 miles rather than every 12,000 just to know that it's serviced MORE than necessary.
Many naysayers on here pillory me for having a full set of OPC stamps, claiming that specialists are better, but I am tentatively selling the car and the average punter looking to buy a decent used Porsche (as opposed to the enthusiast market you find on PH) are only interested in OPC stamps.
So, I'll get flamed again for this, but you could do a lot worse than search the OPC website for an over serviced car from OPC with a fgreash 12 month warranty. You'd be surprised how cheap they are sometimes.
Good luck with the search, just make sure you are 101% comfortable with the car before you buy - it's a WHOLE lot of money!!!
Edited by Vesuvius 996 on Wednesday 3rd January 09:26
elex said:
I know exactly where you are coming from and on principle you should either back out of the deal and expect a full refund of your deposit or adjust the purchase price of the car on the grounds that the car does not have a Full Service History and therefore not as described. You agreed to buy a car with FSH which means that it has been serviced according to Porsche schedules and although it has had services they have not been the required full services required at the relevant mileages. The service history issue is in addition to the warranty issue and I would get it in writing from the OPC warranty people that the warranty will be honoured in the event of a claim given its actual service history. I would let the seller sort all the above out. He's skimped on the servicing so let him sort the mess out.
Edited by elex on Wednesday 3rd January 01:27
Wot he sed as well.
Amazes me that people spend all their money on their car so that they have to scrimp on servicing.
Thanks for all the feedback.
I think I am going to pull out unless he gets written confirmation from Porsche about the warranty and he does the major service immediately and pays for it.
Not looking forward to trying to get back my deposit which wasn't a small amount of money - but he is in the wrong here. Could be messy. Will keep you posted.
Thanks!
I think I am going to pull out unless he gets written confirmation from Porsche about the warranty and he does the major service immediately and pays for it.
Not looking forward to trying to get back my deposit which wasn't a small amount of money - but he is in the wrong here. Could be messy. Will keep you posted.
Thanks!
If he hasn`t picked up his 997 yet then simply back the deal & let him p/x as agreed with the main dealer. Whilst he will be upset to lose the extra money (not sure how much extra he was getting for all the hassle), he won`t want the bother of protracted arguments & if he`s got any sense cut his losses & move on.
If he has already picked up the 997 and forgone the chance to p/x his car based on your agreeing to purchase / placement of deposit, then you have a bit more of a problem. Before you start handing over your hard earned cash you need to make absolutely sure you are happy with the car, and that includes checking any service history. It`s no good trying to bolt the stable door after the horse has fled.
The problem you`re going to have is that if you want your money back based on lack of service history your man will argue that the car does have service history, the book is stamped up and so what`s the problem (he`ll argue). I have a horrible feeling that if he has already picked up his new car you will have a hell of a fight on your hands.
Henry
If he has already picked up the 997 and forgone the chance to p/x his car based on your agreeing to purchase / placement of deposit, then you have a bit more of a problem. Before you start handing over your hard earned cash you need to make absolutely sure you are happy with the car, and that includes checking any service history. It`s no good trying to bolt the stable door after the horse has fled.
The problem you`re going to have is that if you want your money back based on lack of service history your man will argue that the car does have service history, the book is stamped up and so what`s the problem (he`ll argue). I have a horrible feeling that if he has already picked up his new car you will have a hell of a fight on your hands.
Henry
Unfortunately full service history can mean different things to different people.
Seperately if you took your car to the OPC every year and got the service they recommended, you would claim to have a FPSH. I am not convinced you would always end up with all the services proscribed in the owners manual though, especially on a lower mileage car.
Just read your post re: services carried out. You are a little vague as to what was carried out when but it looks like the service you are moaning about was caried out in `06 at circa 48K miles. That should not necessarily be a major 48k service, that service should have been carried out when the car was 4 years old ie in `04 or `05 depending on when the car was first registered. The service intervals are 12kmls or yearly. So major services are carried out every 48k miles or 4 years which ever is the sooner.
From your post it doesn`t look like the chap has done anything wrong.
Henry
From your post it doesn`t look like the chap has done anything wrong.
Henry
henry-f said:
Just read your post re: services carried out. You are a little vague as to what was carried out when but it looks like the service you are moaning about was caried out in `06 at circa 48K miles. That should not necessarily be a major 48k service, that service should have been carried out when the car was 4 years old ie in `04 or `05 depending on when the car was first registered. The service intervals are 12kmls or yearly. So major services are carried out every 48k miles or 4 years which ever is the sooner.
From your post it doesn`t look like the chap has done anything wrong.
Henry
From your post it doesn`t look like the chap has done anything wrong.
Henry
Are my posts invisible?
Didn`t mean to trample on your very valid (& correct) post Adam. The thread seemed to wander off on it`s own though ignoring fact & I wanted to make sure any advice proffered was valid.
But yes, you were indeed in there before me and its a shame no one read it. Advice to back the car or aspersions cast on the owner`s ablity to look after his car properly seem rather odd if (as may well be the case), there is nothing wrong with the service history.
Just go steady James, particularly if your man has turned away the chance of part exchanging his car on the strength of your promise to purchase. Some of the advice contained in this thread looks like it`s foundations might be on rather rocky ground.
Henry
But yes, you were indeed in there before me and its a shame no one read it. Advice to back the car or aspersions cast on the owner`s ablity to look after his car properly seem rather odd if (as may well be the case), there is nothing wrong with the service history.
Just go steady James, particularly if your man has turned away the chance of part exchanging his car on the strength of your promise to purchase. Some of the advice contained in this thread looks like it`s foundations might be on rather rocky ground.
Henry
Great responses again. Just for your info, here is the exact breakdown:
05/2000 - Car Bought
02/2001 - Minor Service (Assumed this - there is no tick) AFN Reading - 4757 miles
01/2002 - Major Service Tick - AFN West London - 13476 miles
03/2003 - Minor Service Tick - AFN West London - 26549 miles
03/2004 - Major Service Tick - Porsche Reading - 36185 miles
04/2005 - Minor Service Tick - Hamilton Cars Bristol - 42474 miles
04/2006 - Yearly Maintenance Tick - Charles Ivey Fulham - 47596 miles
08/2006 - 111 point check done, various bits spent (minor parts), Porche Warranty issued by Porche East London.
From my understanding the 04/2006 should have been a major service. And that Porsche do not necessarily check the schedule when issuing the warranty. They just catch you out when you make a claim. Or do you think I am being paranoid?
Thanks!
05/2000 - Car Bought
02/2001 - Minor Service (Assumed this - there is no tick) AFN Reading - 4757 miles
01/2002 - Major Service Tick - AFN West London - 13476 miles
03/2003 - Minor Service Tick - AFN West London - 26549 miles
03/2004 - Major Service Tick - Porsche Reading - 36185 miles
04/2005 - Minor Service Tick - Hamilton Cars Bristol - 42474 miles
04/2006 - Yearly Maintenance Tick - Charles Ivey Fulham - 47596 miles
08/2006 - 111 point check done, various bits spent (minor parts), Porche Warranty issued by Porche East London.
From my understanding the 04/2006 should have been a major service. And that Porsche do not necessarily check the schedule when issuing the warranty. They just catch you out when you make a claim. Or do you think I am being paranoid?
Thanks!
If you like the car (which you must do given deposit) I would check with OPC what should have been done at service and with Ivy as what there annual stamp means was done (my previous experience with indi's for my Audi was they often do a bigger service that straight oil change. Then get quote for additional work and knock that off the price and get ther service items done.
Ahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa 
The car only did 5122 miles in the year 05-06. This means it got an "Annual Check" rather than the next due Service. An Annual check does not include an oil change. It is basically a safety check to make sure everything works, and costs about £100 at OPC. It's aimed at people who have loads of cars and just use the 911 for weekends, for example. They can get the car serviced every TWO years with a quick once over in between.
Which I think might just be above board, BUT be warned this car is due a BIG ONE. A Major Service, and the first one for two years as well. Be afraid, very afraid.
Negotiate accordingly (it might be too late of course if you've agreed a price
)
By way of explanation, if you only do a small mileage (less than 6k [??]) in a year you can have an "Annual Check" rather than the next due Service. As I said below in my previous post, my car had the full Services despite the low mileage, he COULD have got away with Annual Checks here and there but he decided to have the next Service done instead.
Seems the warranty has been issued so you should be OK, but I'd take OPC advice on when the next proper Service (the one the previous owner wanted to avoid!!!!) is due.
It seems likely to be at 54,474 miles OR 04/07 whichever is sooner (i.e there is a MAHOOSIVE bill coming in three months time.....go figure!)
I reckon you might be looking at a minimum of £1500 - £2000 if it needs brake pads, more if it needs new discs, plugs and brake fluid as well. There is a bill in my folder of documents for a 48k service which is well over £4k
and that was without any work other than the service, brake pads and discs, tyres, fluids, plugs and consumables!!
I can't help thinking that there is an obvious story here - that the OPC told him last time that it needed brakes, tyres, discs, fluids, plugs and he was looking at a massive bill, so he had the Annual Check done to keep the car's history up to date, with a view to flogging it (here's where you come in, mate!!!) before the MAHOOSIVE bill becomes an imperative rather than something which can be put off for another year......
BEWARE - this car MAY have a nasty sting in the tail in three months
The car only did 5122 miles in the year 05-06. This means it got an "Annual Check" rather than the next due Service. An Annual check does not include an oil change. It is basically a safety check to make sure everything works, and costs about £100 at OPC. It's aimed at people who have loads of cars and just use the 911 for weekends, for example. They can get the car serviced every TWO years with a quick once over in between.
Which I think might just be above board, BUT be warned this car is due a BIG ONE. A Major Service, and the first one for two years as well. Be afraid, very afraid.
Negotiate accordingly (it might be too late of course if you've agreed a price
) By way of explanation, if you only do a small mileage (less than 6k [??]) in a year you can have an "Annual Check" rather than the next due Service. As I said below in my previous post, my car had the full Services despite the low mileage, he COULD have got away with Annual Checks here and there but he decided to have the next Service done instead.
Seems the warranty has been issued so you should be OK, but I'd take OPC advice on when the next proper Service (the one the previous owner wanted to avoid!!!!) is due.
It seems likely to be at 54,474 miles OR 04/07 whichever is sooner (i.e there is a MAHOOSIVE bill coming in three months time.....go figure!)
I reckon you might be looking at a minimum of £1500 - £2000 if it needs brake pads, more if it needs new discs, plugs and brake fluid as well. There is a bill in my folder of documents for a 48k service which is well over £4k
and that was without any work other than the service, brake pads and discs, tyres, fluids, plugs and consumables!! I can't help thinking that there is an obvious story here - that the OPC told him last time that it needed brakes, tyres, discs, fluids, plugs and he was looking at a massive bill, so he had the Annual Check done to keep the car's history up to date, with a view to flogging it (here's where you come in, mate!!!) before the MAHOOSIVE bill becomes an imperative rather than something which can be put off for another year......
BEWARE - this car MAY have a nasty sting in the tail in three months
Edited by Vesuvius 996 on Wednesday 3rd January 15:26
Vesuvius has a good point and don't forget the wear on the tyres. If you get the price of a major service off (say £500 for arguments sake) you *might* still end up paying £2k+ on other stuff before the end of the year.
edited to add:
Henry has a good point, the servicing looks fine and you said you'd take it. The advice on consumables is a bit "after the event".
Remember the OPC would try and sell it for p/x +7-10k, so if you were unlucky and had to spend 3k on servicing/consumables/warranty it still doesn't look too bad.
edited to add:
Henry has a good point, the servicing looks fine and you said you'd take it. The advice on consumables is a bit "after the event".
Remember the OPC would try and sell it for p/x +7-10k, so if you were unlucky and had to spend 3k on servicing/consumables/warranty it still doesn't look too bad.
Edited by 2something on Wednesday 3rd January 15:46
Am I missing something here. Chap has given a deposit for a car & said I`ll have it. People are talking about negotiating now.
Just for the record has the chap forgone the p/x against his 997 on the strength of your saying you`ll buy his car or could he still p/x it & return your depo ?
Henry
Just for the record has the chap forgone the p/x against his 997 on the strength of your saying you`ll buy his car or could he still p/x it & return your depo ?
Henry
The chap has had the car independantly inspected. If it needs new discs and pads,this would have been picked up.
A major service, with plugs and fluid (why are they not included) is just over £800. If it needed discs and/or pads, they are cheaper from an Indy and aren't covered by OPC warranty anyway.
A major service, with plugs and fluid (why are they not included) is just over £800. If it needed discs and/or pads, they are cheaper from an Indy and aren't covered by OPC warranty anyway.
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