Just to clear the air.. a bit.
Discussion
A small tear-up yesterday on the forum and i apologise to Henry if i offended him(my jibes were not aimed at him or his company specifically).My comments re dealers are clearly designed to cause a bit of a reaction however i feel that there are still people (especially new Porsche owners)that are being hoodwinked by the professionals with unfair pricing.In the last 2 weeks alone i have had 2 friends selling 2 Porsches...both bids on the cars were scandalous compared to the cars being sold on the dealers websites...im not mentioning names as that is against Pistonhead rules but one of the cars is for sale at 15k at present ...one 'specialist' bid 8k for that car!I know there is a mark-up but i think most people would find that a tad excessive!I think if i was new to Porsche cars and scanning Porsche forums i would be pleased to see comments like mine from someone who has been stung regularly before and probably wouldnt have done so if i had checked a forum like this first.Everyone's got to make a living but some integrity would be nice..btw theres are really cheap 99 plate 996 for £35k at an OPC 
I wonder where the bid for a car like that is at the moment?
I wonder where the bid for a car like that is at the moment? Edited by kayc on Thursday 4th January 10:04
Its like anything, if you don't like/agree then don't do it ! I don't think anyone minds a moan, but I suspect your rantings are becoming a tad to bitchy...
We all know that dealers will make money out of a deal, its their living, if you don't agree don't do it, they would prob. prefer it this way...
We all know that dealers will make money out of a deal, its their living, if you don't agree don't do it, they would prob. prefer it this way...
kayc said:
A small tear-up yesterday on the forum and i apologise to Henry if i offended him(my jibes were not aimed at him or his company specifically).My comments re dealers are clearly designed to cause a bit of a reaction however i feel that there are still people (especially new Porsche owners)that are being hoodwinked by the professionals with unfair pricing.In the last 2 weeks alone i have had 2 friends selling 2 Porsches...both bids on the cars were scandalous compared to the cars being sold on the dealers websites...im not mentioning names as that is against Pistonhead rules but one of the cars is for sale at 15k at present ...one 'specialist' bid 8k for that car!I know there is a mark-up but i think most people would find that a tad excessive!I think if i was new to Porsche cars and scanning Porsche forums i would be pleased to see comments like mine from someone who has been stung regularly before and probably wouldnt have done so if i had checked a forum like this first.Everyone's got to make a living but some integrity would be nice..btw theres are really cheap 99 plate 996 for £35k at an OPC I wonder where the bid for a car like that is at the moment?
I wonder where the bid for a car like that is at the moment?That "cease and desist" letter worked then did it?
Edited by Vesuvius 996 on Thursday 4th January 10:43
I think that the point that you make is valid, if sometimes made in a slightly combative manner. It seems to me that you have made a persona for yourself on here, you tell it how you see it.
Personally i don't have a problem with that, even if i do not always agree with what you write.After all these forums would be far less interesting if we all agreed with each other all of the time.
As for the humour, i find your posts far funnier than the back slapping crap that is becoming more prevalent on here.
Personally i don't have a problem with that, even if i do not always agree with what you write.After all these forums would be far less interesting if we all agreed with each other all of the time.
As for the humour, i find your posts far funnier than the back slapping crap that is becoming more prevalent on here.
Vesuvius 996 said:
kayc said:
A small tear-up yesterday on the forum and i apologise to Henry if i offended him(my jibes were not aimed at him or his company specifically).My comments re dealers are clearly designed to cause a bit of a reaction however i feel that there are still people (especially new Porsche owners)that are being hoodwinked by the professionals with unfair pricing.In the last 2 weeks alone i have had 2 friends selling 2 Porsches...both bids on the cars were scandalous compared to the cars being sold on the dealers websites...im not mentioning names as that is against Pistonhead rules but one of the cars is for sale at 15k at present ...one 'specialist' bid 8k for that car!I know there is a mark-up but i think most people would find that a tad excessive!I think if i was new to Porsche cars and scanning Porsche forums i would be pleased to see comments like mine from someone who has been stung regularly before and probably wouldnt have done so if i had checked a forum like this first.Everyone's got to make a living but some integrity would be nice..btw theres are really cheap 99 plate 996 for £35k at an OPC I wonder where the bid for a car like that is at the moment?
I wonder where the bid for a car like that is at the moment?That "cease and desist" letter worked then did it?
Edited by Vesuvius 996 on Thursday 4th January 10:43
kayc said:
Vesuvius 996 said:
kayc said:
A small tear-up yesterday on the forum and i apologise to Henry if i offended him(my jibes were not aimed at him or his company specifically).My comments re dealers are clearly designed to cause a bit of a reaction however i feel that there are still people (especially new Porsche owners)that are being hoodwinked by the professionals with unfair pricing.In the last 2 weeks alone i have had 2 friends selling 2 Porsches...both bids on the cars were scandalous compared to the cars being sold on the dealers websites...im not mentioning names as that is against Pistonhead rules but one of the cars is for sale at 15k at present ...one 'specialist' bid 8k for that car!I know there is a mark-up but i think most people would find that a tad excessive!I think if i was new to Porsche cars and scanning Porsche forums i would be pleased to see comments like mine from someone who has been stung regularly before and probably wouldnt have done so if i had checked a forum like this first.Everyone's got to make a living but some integrity would be nice..btw theres are really cheap 99 plate 996 for £35k at an OPC I wonder where the bid for a car like that is at the moment?
I wonder where the bid for a car like that is at the moment?That "cease and desist" letter worked then did it?
Edited by Vesuvius 996 on Thursday 4th January 10:43
A cease and desist letter is a communication normally received from a libelled person's solicitor, administering a b0llocking and demanding that no further libel be committed.
Vesuvius 996 said:
kayc said:
Vesuvius 996 said:
kayc said:
A small tear-up yesterday on the forum and i apologise to Henry if i offended him(my jibes were not aimed at him or his company specifically).My comments re dealers are clearly designed to cause a bit of a reaction however i feel that there are still people (especially new Porsche owners)that are being hoodwinked by the professionals with unfair pricing.In the last 2 weeks alone i have had 2 friends selling 2 Porsches...both bids on the cars were scandalous compared to the cars being sold on the dealers websites...im not mentioning names as that is against Pistonhead rules but one of the cars is for sale at 15k at present ...one 'specialist' bid 8k for that car!I know there is a mark-up but i think most people would find that a tad excessive!I think if i was new to Porsche cars and scanning Porsche forums i would be pleased to see comments like mine from someone who has been stung regularly before and probably wouldnt have done so if i had checked a forum like this first.Everyone's got to make a living but some integrity would be nice..btw theres are really cheap 99 plate 996 for £35k at an OPC I wonder where the bid for a car like that is at the moment?
I wonder where the bid for a car like that is at the moment?That "cease and desist" letter worked then did it?
Edited by Vesuvius 996 on Thursday 4th January 10:43
A cease and desist letter is a communication normally received from a libelled person's solicitor, administering a b0llocking and demanding that no further libel be committed.
Didn't say anything at the time. I don't know you or henry but when someone is running a business i believe you should show respect after all he has at least one hungry daughter to feed.
porsche owners are adults, we live in a free market for buying Porsches, yes i have been caught for enough over the years to have bought a Boxster outright having just sold two and bought three porsche's, but that is the game, its not their fault its yours because you are the guys who won't buy them as private purchases because you (and I) are afraid of a big bill here and been thrashed there and warranty etc, etc.
How you can blame a profession for existing baffles me, they are meeting a demand created by its customers.
porsche owners are adults, we live in a free market for buying Porsches, yes i have been caught for enough over the years to have bought a Boxster outright having just sold two and bought three porsche's, but that is the game, its not their fault its yours because you are the guys who won't buy them as private purchases because you (and I) are afraid of a big bill here and been thrashed there and warranty etc, etc.
How you can blame a profession for existing baffles me, they are meeting a demand created by its customers.
kayc said:
Vesuvius 996 said:
kayc said:
Vesuvius 996 said:
kayc said:
A small tear-up yesterday on the forum and i apologise to Henry if i offended him(my jibes were not aimed at him or his company specifically).My comments re dealers are clearly designed to cause a bit of a reaction however i feel that there are still people (especially new Porsche owners)that are being hoodwinked by the professionals with unfair pricing.In the last 2 weeks alone i have had 2 friends selling 2 Porsches...both bids on the cars were scandalous compared to the cars being sold on the dealers websites...im not mentioning names as that is against Pistonhead rules but one of the cars is for sale at 15k at present ...one 'specialist' bid 8k for that car!I know there is a mark-up but i think most people would find that a tad excessive!I think if i was new to Porsche cars and scanning Porsche forums i would be pleased to see comments like mine from someone who has been stung regularly before and probably wouldnt have done so if i had checked a forum like this first.Everyone's got to make a living but some integrity would be nice..btw theres are really cheap 99 plate 996 for £35k at an OPC I wonder where the bid for a car like that is at the moment?
I wonder where the bid for a car like that is at the moment?That "cease and desist" letter worked then did it?
Edited by Vesuvius 996 on Thursday 4th January 10:43
A cease and desist letter is a communication normally received from a libelled person's solicitor, administering a b0llocking and demanding that no further libel be committed.
Libel claims are interesting. The allegation is made by the offended person, and then the burden of proof is on the other party to convince a jury it's NOT libel.
Edited by Vesuvius 996 on Thursday 4th January 11:01
porsche4life said:
Didn't say anything at the time. I don't know you or henry but when someone is running a business i believe you should show respect after all he has at least one hungry daughter to feed.
porsche owners are adults, we live in a free market for buying Porsches, yes i have been caught for enough over the years to have bought a Boxster outright having just sold two and bought three porsche's, but that is the game, its not their fault its yours because you are the guys who won't buy them as private purchases because you (and I) are afraid of a big bill here and been thrashed there and warranty etc, etc.
How you can blame a profession for existing baffles me, they are meeting a demand created by its customers.
I agree it is down to individuals to do as they please.If you read my original post i am merely trying to offer some advice to potentially new owners to what they are getting into.Most new owners think they are buying an exclusive expensive car with rock-solid residuals and a dealer back-up service justifying the costs involved.Nearly every person i know that has bought a Porsche from a main dealer or specialist then tried to sell it back to them has been in a state of shock at how much money the dealer has taken off of them.As you say people who wont buy privately for warranty issues etc support this game..hence i buy and sell privately now to avoid the desire to throttle the dealer. porsche owners are adults, we live in a free market for buying Porsches, yes i have been caught for enough over the years to have bought a Boxster outright having just sold two and bought three porsche's, but that is the game, its not their fault its yours because you are the guys who won't buy them as private purchases because you (and I) are afraid of a big bill here and been thrashed there and warranty etc, etc.
How you can blame a profession for existing baffles me, they are meeting a demand created by its customers.
Edited by kayc on Thursday 4th January 11:26
kayc said:
i am merely trying to offer some advice to potentially new owners to what they are getting into.Most new owners think they are buying an exclusive expensive car with rock-bottom residuals
do you mean rock-solid? or maybe you didn't
your complaints at excess margins are sometimes legitinmate, I share your frustration but Henry seems to run a good business so not fair to cast aspersions as to his honesty in a way new PHers may not interpret as in jest. But good for you for "clearing the air"
Edited by Adam B on Thursday 4th January 11:25
Im still not sure about what your beef is with dealers
Its not like its ground breaking news that dealers try and make big margins. End of the day, the reason they make such big margins is because people cant be bothered with private sales.
Perhaps then the issue is more with the number of time wasters and test pilots you have to contend with when trying a private sale - if there weren't so many of these, then private sales would be a whole lot easier, and the dealers may have to sharpen up a bit. But as long as people arent willing to try a private sale, the dealers will always be there to offer us a quick way out, but never at the right price.
Thats just life im afraid.
Its not like its ground breaking news that dealers try and make big margins. End of the day, the reason they make such big margins is because people cant be bothered with private sales.
Perhaps then the issue is more with the number of time wasters and test pilots you have to contend with when trying a private sale - if there weren't so many of these, then private sales would be a whole lot easier, and the dealers may have to sharpen up a bit. But as long as people arent willing to try a private sale, the dealers will always be there to offer us a quick way out, but never at the right price.
Thats just life im afraid.
bermyandy said:
Im still not sure about what your beef is with dealers
Its not like its ground breaking news that dealers try and make big margins. End of the day, the reason they make such big margins is because people cant be bothered with private sales.
Perhaps then the issue is more with the number of time wasters and test pilots you have to contend with when trying a private sale - if there weren't so many of these, then private sales would be a whole lot easier, and the dealers may have to sharpen up a bit. But as long as people arent willing to try a private sale, the dealers will always be there to offer us a quick way out, but never at the right price.
Thats just life im afraid.
Quite right.... The dealers a merely filling the void that is left there by the Punters. Its not like its ground breaking news that dealers try and make big margins. End of the day, the reason they make such big margins is because people cant be bothered with private sales.
Perhaps then the issue is more with the number of time wasters and test pilots you have to contend with when trying a private sale - if there weren't so many of these, then private sales would be a whole lot easier, and the dealers may have to sharpen up a bit. But as long as people arent willing to try a private sale, the dealers will always be there to offer us a quick way out, but never at the right price.
Thats just life im afraid.
I have pretty much the same view as Kayc with regard to margins etc, but for me that's just the tip of the Iceberg. As a 'car enthusiast', I have had my enthusiasm eroded away over the past years by the market that has been created as a whole. No ones fault - it's just happened. I have always endeavoured to buy the best possible example of any model that I'm looking for - I would expect to pay for this privilege. But, the crap that you get from Punters and dealers alike when you come to sell your P&J simply astounds me. It seems that to most people a car is just another commodity - people are buying these 'enthusiast' cars like they would buy a TV, and that has destroyed any 'koudos', 'exclusivity' (what ever you want to call it) that owning these cars used to be about.
All my previous cars (with some obvious exceptions!) have been cherished examples, and virtually everyone I have tried to sell, receives a barrage of e-mails/phonecalls from punters asking 'what's the cheapest price mate'... This kind of comment from guys buying GT2's, CSL's etc.
Fair play to Porsche for rising to this market, but it's only going one way from here, and it seems to be catering less and less for the enthusiastic owner/driver.
That's the reason why I'm off, back into a more classic market - wish me luck.....!
It's true to say that dealers do try it on.
I have tried three times to do a deal on a 997, trading my beloved 996.
I've been offered seven grand under the Trade Price by OPC!!! They have examples similar to mine up for £10,000 more than they offer me.
All this means is that I have just kept the car I have, and lavished a little love on it to make it shiny and new again, and I am much richer for it!!
If being a car dealer was an easy route to riches we'd all be doing it.
By the time you take into account their fixed costs of running a forecourt and the hassle which goes with running a business, and then factor in the numpty test drivers, it can't all be funtimes and money counting.
When I was looking for my 993 I went to 5 different specialist dealers and got 4 test drives. They even collected/dropped me off at stations etc. Then I bought one privately.
So good luck to them I say.
By the time you take into account their fixed costs of running a forecourt and the hassle which goes with running a business, and then factor in the numpty test drivers, it can't all be funtimes and money counting.
When I was looking for my 993 I went to 5 different specialist dealers and got 4 test drives. They even collected/dropped me off at stations etc. Then I bought one privately.
So good luck to them I say.
kayc said:
A small tear-up yesterday on the forum and i apologise to Henry if i offended him(my jibes were not aimed at him or his company specifically).My comments re dealers are clearly designed to cause a bit of a reaction however i feel that there are still people (especially new Porsche owners)that are being hoodwinked by the professionals with unfair pricing.In the last 2 weeks alone i have had 2 friends selling 2 Porsches...both bids on the cars were scandalous compared to the cars being sold on the dealers websites...im not mentioning names as that is against Pistonhead rules but one of the cars is for sale at 15k at present ...one 'specialist' bid 8k for that car!I know there is a mark-up but i think most people would find that a tad excessive!I think if i was new to Porsche cars and scanning Porsche forums i would be pleased to see comments like mine from someone who has been stung regularly before and probably wouldnt have done so if i had checked a forum like this first.Everyone's got to make a living but some integrity would be nice..btw theres are really cheap 99 plate 996 for £35k at an OPC I wonder where the bid for a car like that is at the moment?
I wonder where the bid for a car like that is at the moment? Edited by kayc on Thursday 4th January 10:04
I value your comments as I do the others. Have your say.
KayC I do like your posts as they are colourful, even thought they do often come down on a heavily opinionated side. I for one thought that you were a little harsh yesterday, but thought it was in line with your normal posts so didn't think anything of it.
Also I appreciate Henry's contributions and like the way he defends himself - it's always interesting to see the other side. A forum which just sees "all dealers are bad" doesn't have much value.
Now, about your overweight barge of a car designed to allow people who can't drive go really really fast.. you do secretly lust for a Cayman don't you?!
Also I appreciate Henry's contributions and like the way he defends himself - it's always interesting to see the other side. A forum which just sees "all dealers are bad" doesn't have much value.
Now, about your overweight barge of a car designed to allow people who can't drive go really really fast.. you do secretly lust for a Cayman don't you?!
pikey said:
KayC I do like your posts as they are colourful, even thought they do often come down on a heavily opinionated side. I for one thought that you were a little harsh yesterday, but thought it was in line with your normal posts so didn't think anything of it.
Also I appreciate Henry's contributions and like the way he defends himself - it's always interesting to see the other side. A forum which just sees "all dealers are bad" doesn't have much value.
Now, about your overweight barge of a car designed to allow people who can't drive go really really fast.. you do secretly lust for a Cayman don't you?!
Also I appreciate Henry's contributions and like the way he defends himself - it's always interesting to see the other side. A forum which just sees "all dealers are bad" doesn't have much value.
Now, about your overweight barge of a car designed to allow people who can't drive go really really fast.. you do secretly lust for a Cayman don't you?!
Did you buy the 997 Targa then, Ben?
Kayc, I don't feel you have too much to apologise for.
Although I normally disgree with 99% of your posts, this forum would be a very dull place without some occasional handbag waving and I respect the way you stick to your guns even when being harangued from all quarters for talking sh1te, which you generally do.
Henry, I always find your posts entertaining and informative. But as a regular contributor here who occasionally promotes his business through this site you should be able to take the rough with the smooth.
Complaining about Kayc's post to the moderators was a bit two bob IMHO.
Although I normally disgree with 99% of your posts, this forum would be a very dull place without some occasional handbag waving and I respect the way you stick to your guns even when being harangued from all quarters for talking sh1te, which you generally do.
Henry, I always find your posts entertaining and informative. But as a regular contributor here who occasionally promotes his business through this site you should be able to take the rough with the smooth.
Complaining about Kayc's post to the moderators was a bit two bob IMHO.
I didn't see the previous post that started this response - so I will not get involved in that but I would like to make a couple of points in defence of some dealers and their margins.
Remember that if a fault was later proved to be present when a dealer sold the car the law now makes him responsible for the repair.
We often have customers where we have pointed out serious faults growing on their cars who ask for a cheap repair so they can sell it while they have time and it is still running. Of course we refuse in all cases where we belive that a failure will occur soon afterwards - but not all service centres would do this and so many cars for sale are hiding iminent failures that the private seller knows all about but can get away with. We cannot force the customer to pay us for repairs before it all lets go if they don't want it repaired - so many get taken away - unrepaired - faults and all - and we cannot do anything about the fact that we know it will be up for sale shortly.
Private sellers are not then responsible as they are deemed not to have been expected to know there was a fault (not being qualified to assess it).
We have in the last 6 months seen and repaired 3 996's that had engines that failed within 3-6 weeks of the new owner buying it - 2 from dealers and 1 private - and although none of the faults that caused the complete failure could be said to have been present before (or it would not have been running) - I feel sure that often the signs would be there for someone who knew the car over the last couple of years, experienced a problem and were advised of potential iminent failure. We sometimes do this over the phone when a customer rings for advice and the symptoms sound serious or expensive and we have never even see the car.
We have advised private owners that metal in the oil filter may be the first signs of a big end - and it failed 2 weeks later, that smoke on start up and over pressured expansion tank may be a cracked liner - that failed a few weeks later etc etc.
Even, we may buy a car and find (for example) that a tyre deflates over 5 days because the rim is corroded and a new wheel is needed, or air con gas leaks out over a couple of days (just refilled before the sale to us) etc. Because of this we prefer a car brought to us nefore we consider buying it so at least it has gone through a warm up cycle and we road test it hot.
Two very nice 993's we have in at present have had the engines out for new clutches and in one case a dual mass flywheel - neither had a slipping clutch but both we knew would need one in the not too distant future and this is all included in the price - as well as all the other service and repair work we do before offering the car for sale - in all cases spending several thousand on the cars so the next owner doesn't have to. And there is no one better at sussing out a good and bad car than a dealer who knows them well - offering good protection by those who have good reputations and usually some form of warranty can be negotiated (but none with a private purchase).
Owners buying a 944, S2, turbo, 968 , 3.2 carrera, 964 or 993 somewhere else frequently have an initial repair cost of between £2K and £5K to make the cars reliable and to get everything working again (and we are not expensive it is just that people have to make a decision when a car they owned for some years has reached that stage where a specialist can tell expensive repair or maintenance is needed soon - should they pay for it when they were beginning to look for something different or sell it now and save the cost that they will never use the car enough in future to get back) - and usually they have bought a car that is not the most popular colour or specification - so will not be worth as much as other similar cars when they eventually sell it.
Buyers also often think their old part exchange car is worth more than it is and do deals with those sellers offering the highest part exchange - not realising that they paid for the difference in the inflated price of their new car. But if the dealer car was cheaper and he was more honest about the lower value of the part exchange the potential buyer walks away in disgust and he loses the sale - so sometimes you have to build in "part exchange allowances" as well. The dealer also takes a risk over the part exchange because often it is not a Porsche and he has to sell it on "in the trade" who know he is stuck with it and therefore have no incentive to offer a good price.
Dealers have a reputation to uphold, private sellers do not.
Although a dealer car may cost more initially, if the dealer is sound then usually - after a few years use and after selling it - the owner will be no worse off (usually better off) than the guy who bought cheaper privately, maintained it and then sold it privately.
Some exceptions of course don't make this always true (usually cars newer than 6 years old can be bought privately with care and result in a bargain) - but generally it is and those that tried to save money at the outset (and usually older cars) who are often no better off at the end - but the guy with the dealer car often enjoyed a better experience, a better car, less anxiety (being covered with some form of warranty) etc for eventually the same cost and finds it easy to eventually dispose of.
Of course there are dodgy dealers but the general public are just as bad and whereas a dealer can at least have a reputation to preserve, no such luck when Joe Blogs tries to sell you his car - he has nothing to loose!
So yes a good dealer car will cost you more to buy - and the margins may seem high - but the margins you refer to are not just the whole story. On cars above £30K (and newer than 6 years old) margins are usually about 8-12% of the sale price, between £15K and £30K (and up to 10 years old) fairly constant @ £20% and then as they get older (but cheaper) 15 years old+ say between £5K and £15K it rises perhaps as high as £40% reflecting the extra risk, pre-sales work needed and of course the lower actual profit figure for all the effort taken (and remember you must give 17.5% of that margin to the Vat making a 20% margin only 16.6% actually). These are not excessive margins and few businesses could survive if they were any lower. You pay far more margins for funiture etc and they need no maintenance.
But finally - if you don't like it - go private - but I can assure you I have far more customers taken for a ride and costing megga bucks to fix cars that they bought privately (and still losing a lot on the eventual sale) than I do for customers who bought from dealers - cars with proper history and properly looked after and maintained.
Baz Hartech
Remember that if a fault was later proved to be present when a dealer sold the car the law now makes him responsible for the repair.
We often have customers where we have pointed out serious faults growing on their cars who ask for a cheap repair so they can sell it while they have time and it is still running. Of course we refuse in all cases where we belive that a failure will occur soon afterwards - but not all service centres would do this and so many cars for sale are hiding iminent failures that the private seller knows all about but can get away with. We cannot force the customer to pay us for repairs before it all lets go if they don't want it repaired - so many get taken away - unrepaired - faults and all - and we cannot do anything about the fact that we know it will be up for sale shortly.
Private sellers are not then responsible as they are deemed not to have been expected to know there was a fault (not being qualified to assess it).
We have in the last 6 months seen and repaired 3 996's that had engines that failed within 3-6 weeks of the new owner buying it - 2 from dealers and 1 private - and although none of the faults that caused the complete failure could be said to have been present before (or it would not have been running) - I feel sure that often the signs would be there for someone who knew the car over the last couple of years, experienced a problem and were advised of potential iminent failure. We sometimes do this over the phone when a customer rings for advice and the symptoms sound serious or expensive and we have never even see the car.
We have advised private owners that metal in the oil filter may be the first signs of a big end - and it failed 2 weeks later, that smoke on start up and over pressured expansion tank may be a cracked liner - that failed a few weeks later etc etc.
Even, we may buy a car and find (for example) that a tyre deflates over 5 days because the rim is corroded and a new wheel is needed, or air con gas leaks out over a couple of days (just refilled before the sale to us) etc. Because of this we prefer a car brought to us nefore we consider buying it so at least it has gone through a warm up cycle and we road test it hot.
Two very nice 993's we have in at present have had the engines out for new clutches and in one case a dual mass flywheel - neither had a slipping clutch but both we knew would need one in the not too distant future and this is all included in the price - as well as all the other service and repair work we do before offering the car for sale - in all cases spending several thousand on the cars so the next owner doesn't have to. And there is no one better at sussing out a good and bad car than a dealer who knows them well - offering good protection by those who have good reputations and usually some form of warranty can be negotiated (but none with a private purchase).
Owners buying a 944, S2, turbo, 968 , 3.2 carrera, 964 or 993 somewhere else frequently have an initial repair cost of between £2K and £5K to make the cars reliable and to get everything working again (and we are not expensive it is just that people have to make a decision when a car they owned for some years has reached that stage where a specialist can tell expensive repair or maintenance is needed soon - should they pay for it when they were beginning to look for something different or sell it now and save the cost that they will never use the car enough in future to get back) - and usually they have bought a car that is not the most popular colour or specification - so will not be worth as much as other similar cars when they eventually sell it.
Buyers also often think their old part exchange car is worth more than it is and do deals with those sellers offering the highest part exchange - not realising that they paid for the difference in the inflated price of their new car. But if the dealer car was cheaper and he was more honest about the lower value of the part exchange the potential buyer walks away in disgust and he loses the sale - so sometimes you have to build in "part exchange allowances" as well. The dealer also takes a risk over the part exchange because often it is not a Porsche and he has to sell it on "in the trade" who know he is stuck with it and therefore have no incentive to offer a good price.
Dealers have a reputation to uphold, private sellers do not.
Although a dealer car may cost more initially, if the dealer is sound then usually - after a few years use and after selling it - the owner will be no worse off (usually better off) than the guy who bought cheaper privately, maintained it and then sold it privately.
Some exceptions of course don't make this always true (usually cars newer than 6 years old can be bought privately with care and result in a bargain) - but generally it is and those that tried to save money at the outset (and usually older cars) who are often no better off at the end - but the guy with the dealer car often enjoyed a better experience, a better car, less anxiety (being covered with some form of warranty) etc for eventually the same cost and finds it easy to eventually dispose of.
Of course there are dodgy dealers but the general public are just as bad and whereas a dealer can at least have a reputation to preserve, no such luck when Joe Blogs tries to sell you his car - he has nothing to loose!
So yes a good dealer car will cost you more to buy - and the margins may seem high - but the margins you refer to are not just the whole story. On cars above £30K (and newer than 6 years old) margins are usually about 8-12% of the sale price, between £15K and £30K (and up to 10 years old) fairly constant @ £20% and then as they get older (but cheaper) 15 years old+ say between £5K and £15K it rises perhaps as high as £40% reflecting the extra risk, pre-sales work needed and of course the lower actual profit figure for all the effort taken (and remember you must give 17.5% of that margin to the Vat making a 20% margin only 16.6% actually). These are not excessive margins and few businesses could survive if they were any lower. You pay far more margins for funiture etc and they need no maintenance.
But finally - if you don't like it - go private - but I can assure you I have far more customers taken for a ride and costing megga bucks to fix cars that they bought privately (and still losing a lot on the eventual sale) than I do for customers who bought from dealers - cars with proper history and properly looked after and maintained.
Baz Hartech
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