944S2 fornt brake upgrade
Discussion
As my brakes are pretty poor (well, they are crap actually) I'm thinking about upgrading the brakes and have heard about fitting 'big red' calipers from a 928.
There are a few 928S4 calipers on ebay and advertised on the internet, can anybody give me any idea as to what I need and what will fit.
Is it worth upgrading the discs as well?
my car has the standard design 90 alloys which are constantly running with black gunge from the brake pads, in the mean time what are the best (and cleanest) pads to use for normal/ fast road driving.
Thanks,
Andy
There are a few 928S4 calipers on ebay and advertised on the internet, can anybody give me any idea as to what I need and what will fit.
Is it worth upgrading the discs as well?
my car has the standard design 90 alloys which are constantly running with black gunge from the brake pads, in the mean time what are the best (and cleanest) pads to use for normal/ fast road driving.
Thanks,
Andy
Are your front brakes the same as the 964 fronts? I.E. large 4 pot black alloy calipers made by brembo with a quick release pad mechanism?
If so they really shouldn't be bad at all, I use my 964 on track and it gets used hard and never suffer from poor braking in fact the braking is excellent, the only time I will get fade is on very very hot days on short tracks.
If so they really shouldn't be bad at all, I use my 964 on track and it gets used hard and never suffer from poor braking in fact the braking is excellent, the only time I will get fade is on very very hot days on short tracks.
The calipers are the larger type aluminium brembos, but their performance is poor (no real initial bite and definitely not enough power to lock the wheels.
I've stripped them down and they do have a small amount of plate lift, and the pads and pistons are all free.
I think the pads that are in there may be either cheapo specials fitted by a previous owner or just too hard or old so I'm going to change them, what is the reccommended best fit for the S2?, I'm thinking of EBC green stuff.
Thanks for the advice.
Andy.
I've stripped them down and they do have a small amount of plate lift, and the pads and pistons are all free.
I think the pads that are in there may be either cheapo specials fitted by a previous owner or just too hard or old so I'm going to change them, what is the reccommended best fit for the S2?, I'm thinking of EBC green stuff.
Thanks for the advice.
Andy.
There are various things you can do that will improve the brakes you have before going the big black 928 caliper route (same is big reds only , well, black).
I would suggest:
1. fully overhaul the calipers including new seals and cleaning off the corrosion causing the plate lift - this is not cheap as its a lot of labour - not such a concern if you can do it yourself
2. replace the rubber hoses with braided hoses - cheap and a massive improvement in pedal feel
3. new good quality brake fluid and make sure any air is bled from the system
4. new pads and disks - I have no experience of any but the Porsche original pads on an S2 and they seemed pretty good to me
I did all of the above on my S2, plus caliper steam clean and repaint (all 4) and this produced stonking brakes but it wasn't cheap.
If you do want to go the big black route, Promax motorsport will sell you the front calipers and the adaptors you'll need to fit them to an S2. You also need 17" wheels.
I would suggest:
1. fully overhaul the calipers including new seals and cleaning off the corrosion causing the plate lift - this is not cheap as its a lot of labour - not such a concern if you can do it yourself
2. replace the rubber hoses with braided hoses - cheap and a massive improvement in pedal feel
3. new good quality brake fluid and make sure any air is bled from the system
4. new pads and disks - I have no experience of any but the Porsche original pads on an S2 and they seemed pretty good to me
I did all of the above on my S2, plus caliper steam clean and repaint (all 4) and this produced stonking brakes but it wasn't cheap.
If you do want to go the big black route, Promax motorsport will sell you the front calipers and the adaptors you'll need to fit them to an S2. You also need 17" wheels.
There is a photograph im our buyers guide on our web site www.hartech.org that shows calliper plate lift.
Baz
Baz
My advice would be the following.
Sort out the plate lift. My 964 had it and aside from making the brakes howl, and making the pads gits to fit the efficiency was reduced. PM me for a pair of exchange calipers if you want.
How old are the pipes? if they are original just change them as a matter of course when you do the calipers. Adds about an hour to the job and is good practice on a 15 year old car, I put goodridge braided ones on purely because they were cheaper than Porsche rubber ones!
New disks, if your old disks have bad wear ridges then efficiency will be reduced, these can be ground/skimmed out but if they are really grotty stick new ones on, £200 a set ish.
Pads, I must admit I use cheapo ones, (waits for the gasps) can supply if interested, they work fine, no overheating, although they only last about 12-15000 miles so not the worlds longest lasting but at the price they are well worth it.
While your doing all that then I would renew your brake pad sensors because you will break some getting them out, anti squeal shims are up to you, I've run without them and currently run with them and don't notice any difference.
Sort out the plate lift. My 964 had it and aside from making the brakes howl, and making the pads gits to fit the efficiency was reduced. PM me for a pair of exchange calipers if you want.
How old are the pipes? if they are original just change them as a matter of course when you do the calipers. Adds about an hour to the job and is good practice on a 15 year old car, I put goodridge braided ones on purely because they were cheaper than Porsche rubber ones!
New disks, if your old disks have bad wear ridges then efficiency will be reduced, these can be ground/skimmed out but if they are really grotty stick new ones on, £200 a set ish.
Pads, I must admit I use cheapo ones, (waits for the gasps) can supply if interested, they work fine, no overheating, although they only last about 12-15000 miles so not the worlds longest lasting but at the price they are well worth it.
While your doing all that then I would renew your brake pad sensors because you will break some getting them out, anti squeal shims are up to you, I've run without them and currently run with them and don't notice any difference.
tertius said:
There are various things you can do that will improve the brakes you have before going the big black 928 caliper route (same is big reds only , well, black).
I would suggest:
1. fully overhaul the calipers including new seals and cleaning off the corrosion causing the plate lift - this is not cheap as its a lot of labour - not such a concern if you can do it yourself
2. replace the rubber hoses with braided hoses - cheap and a massive improvement in pedal feel
3. new good quality brake fluid and make sure any air is bled from the system
4. new pads and disks - I have no experience of any but the Porsche original pads on an S2 and they seemed pretty good to me
I did all of the above on my S2, plus caliper steam clean and repaint (all 4) and this produced stonking brakes but it wasn't cheap.
If you do want to go the big black route, Promax motorsport will sell you the front calipers and the adaptors you'll need to fit them to an S2. You also need 17" wheels.
I would suggest:
1. fully overhaul the calipers including new seals and cleaning off the corrosion causing the plate lift - this is not cheap as its a lot of labour - not such a concern if you can do it yourself
2. replace the rubber hoses with braided hoses - cheap and a massive improvement in pedal feel
3. new good quality brake fluid and make sure any air is bled from the system
4. new pads and disks - I have no experience of any but the Porsche original pads on an S2 and they seemed pretty good to me
I did all of the above on my S2, plus caliper steam clean and repaint (all 4) and this produced stonking brakes but it wasn't cheap.
If you do want to go the big black route, Promax motorsport will sell you the front calipers and the adaptors you'll need to fit them to an S2. You also need 17" wheels.
Sensible advice. You certainly shouldn't need to upgrade the calipers on a 968, just make sure they're working properly. Overhauling the calipers is not a big job if done professionally. I have watched Johnny from Unit 11 Porsche (www.uniteleven.co.uk) remove both calipers, strip the spring plates off (including heating the retaining bolts to free them off), clean the corrosion off, then re-assemble with new SS bolts, new pads, re-fit to the car and bleed off the system. The whole job took under 90 mintues so was really good value - the advantage of using someone who knows the job and has everything to hand. If new seals are required this may add another 1/2 - 1 hour to the job, similar if new discs are needed I would guess. Even if it adds up to 3 hours for £120 it's well worth it IMO.
As for pads, I used standard Porsche items (which are Pagid re-boxed) on a couple of track days and had little problem with them, but otherwise try Porterfields - they are suitable for racing but work from cold and are kind to discs. You may not have heard of them but the name is well known within Porsche specialists that get involved in track car preparation.
Easiest and best upgrade by a country mile is to fit 968 brake ducts. The complete set is about 40 quid from your local OPC. This will stop your brakes from over heating. Apart from what the others have said you can also now get Sebro cross drilled disks for the S2. AFAIK these are much better then the zimmerman ones and ppl like Bert Gear sell them for about a tenner each more then the normal ones. On saturday I did a trackday at Bedford and suffered no problems at all with the brakes (also got ATE blue fluid, SS lines and BHP XPS pads). Currently the only thing that limits how long I can stay out is the tyres balloning from to much pressure / temperature build up. I got around 7 to 8 degrees C increase over 20 minutes (Hankook RS2 track day road legal tyres).
Thanks for all the advice, I'm not too keen on going up to 17" wheels as I want to keep the car as standard looking as I can so I guess the big reds (or blacks depending on the colour) are off the christmas list.
As my discs are pretty new I'm going to try and replace my calipers due to corrosion and plate lift, and get a set of braided hoses as well (ebay?).
I haven't got a clue of the pads so I'll get a replacement set whilst I'm in there, good working practice and all that, and see how it improves my (non existant) stopping power.
Andy.
As my discs are pretty new I'm going to try and replace my calipers due to corrosion and plate lift, and get a set of braided hoses as well (ebay?).
I haven't got a clue of the pads so I'll get a replacement set whilst I'm in there, good working practice and all that, and see how it improves my (non existant) stopping power.
Andy.
Thread resurrection ... no point in starting another one ...
The 944 failed the MoT on amongst some other minor stuff, the brakes ... last year it was the suspension which I renewed with some yellow Spax units - very good.
The brakes have been 'adequate' but I could tell over the last few months they were not the best, as I was getting judder, caused by a sticking piston(s) I think so when one of the Eurocarparts 50% off offers came via email I bought some new Brembo standard discs and some Pagid pads, and thought I would fit them sometime this summer. That time has arrived!
However, on taking the calipers off, the state of them ... ! Not wanting to spend daft money on some meaningless upgrade for a road car that only occasionally gets driven in anger, I'm having them rebuilt by a specialist - bored out and an oversize piston fitted in each etc. Couldn't fit new discs and pads and keep the calipers as they were. The old girl is 30 this year, so it's about time she was shown some love.
These are the calipers as removed. They have gone away now to be rebuilt and I'll update with some more pics when they return ... bought some new Goodridge braided hoses as well. The brake fluid hadn't been changed in the five years I've owned the car so about time I think ...
The rear ones don't look as bad, but in time ...
The 944 failed the MoT on amongst some other minor stuff, the brakes ... last year it was the suspension which I renewed with some yellow Spax units - very good.
The brakes have been 'adequate' but I could tell over the last few months they were not the best, as I was getting judder, caused by a sticking piston(s) I think so when one of the Eurocarparts 50% off offers came via email I bought some new Brembo standard discs and some Pagid pads, and thought I would fit them sometime this summer. That time has arrived!
However, on taking the calipers off, the state of them ... ! Not wanting to spend daft money on some meaningless upgrade for a road car that only occasionally gets driven in anger, I'm having them rebuilt by a specialist - bored out and an oversize piston fitted in each etc. Couldn't fit new discs and pads and keep the calipers as they were. The old girl is 30 this year, so it's about time she was shown some love.
These are the calipers as removed. They have gone away now to be rebuilt and I'll update with some more pics when they return ... bought some new Goodridge braided hoses as well. The brake fluid hadn't been changed in the five years I've owned the car so about time I think ...
The rear ones don't look as bad, but in time ...
They are away for refurb and the guy rang me on Friday and said he thinks so, they blast them and remove the piston and then rebore slightly overize, and fit a new oversize piston and new seals etc. Should be as good as new (nearly). New discs and pads, Goodridge hoses and some new fluid and the thing will stop on a sixpence, hopefully.
This car has inevitably suffered from living outside in all weathers but it is now having some of the tlc I should have been giving it over the last six years.
I think I'll get them back and fitted, do a few other things to get it through the MoT and then do the rear ones as well. Should be good for the next 20 years or so.
Of course one thing leads to another on old cars as we all know, and I rounded off the nut trying to get the old (and originalI think) brake hose off, so I had to cut the hard line and replace it, but I couldn't get the other end out of the ABS unit because f where the other end was situated (no chance to get a spanner on it), so I had to remove the ABS unit from the car (under the o/s front wing) - what a palarva.
Mind you, I'm repairing the bottom of the front wings due to rot and I'm now halfway through removing one of them (and I'd have needed to take the ABS unit out to do that anyway, so swings and roundabouts etc. How long a job is this - the thing is literally welded with the original underseal to the inner wing. All the bolts are out and I've cut through about 90% of the underseal joining the two but it is still holding firm ...
This car has inevitably suffered from living outside in all weathers but it is now having some of the tlc I should have been giving it over the last six years.
I think I'll get them back and fitted, do a few other things to get it through the MoT and then do the rear ones as well. Should be good for the next 20 years or so.
Of course one thing leads to another on old cars as we all know, and I rounded off the nut trying to get the old (and originalI think) brake hose off, so I had to cut the hard line and replace it, but I couldn't get the other end out of the ABS unit because f where the other end was situated (no chance to get a spanner on it), so I had to remove the ABS unit from the car (under the o/s front wing) - what a palarva.
Mind you, I'm repairing the bottom of the front wings due to rot and I'm now halfway through removing one of them (and I'd have needed to take the ABS unit out to do that anyway, so swings and roundabouts etc. How long a job is this - the thing is literally welded with the original underseal to the inner wing. All the bolts are out and I've cut through about 90% of the underseal joining the two but it is still holding firm ...
Edited by uk66fastback on Sunday 7th July 23:18
Edited by uk66fastback on Sunday 7th July 23:18
rufusgti said:
I'm not sure about the wing removal, but I'm interested to see as I have a 944 that's very old and at some point these jobs will need doing so keep us updated. 
I think it's just a case of working your way down the wing, separating the two ... very time consuming if you're the first owner to remove the wing since the car was new and i am! No wonder it takes a breakdown in the underseal for rust to penetrate, I can't see anything short of a nuclear explosion would get through this stuff if it remains as it is.Wing removal is easier on a non-ABS car as there is no unit sited behind the plastic shield under the wing and the three bolts at the rear of the wing are easily accessible, after you've dug the underseal away from the edges.
I think it might have been an option when new on my car (1989 2.7). There's a really good piece online about renewing the internals on them when they corrode with parts from a similar Bosch unit used on some Mercedes models from the same era - they thoughtfully put their unit under the bonnet and not in the inner wing so the units are always in much better condition. I can see why Porsche put it there though. There isn't a lot of space in the engine bay!
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