PCCB

[supermono]

Looking at the front brakes on this GT2 I've just bought () I see some darkish areas that look a bit worn in places. Fronts look a bit different to rears which have a more homegenous look. Now the guy selling it (OPC) said they wouldn't sell me a car with knackered disks.

Does anyone have any photographs of knackered disks? I'm not saying these ones are knackered but I'd like to see what knackered ones look like.

I was thinking of taking it straight round to someone to have them looked at when I collect it. Where's the best place in Bristol/Surrey/Norfolk?

SM

[911wise]

This should be of help www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&t=336134&hw=pccb

[freedman]

For Surrey try GT one

Edited by freedman on Tuesday 10th April 21:35

[Wetwipe]

first and foremost PM slippydiff - he will put you straight on the PCCB front

also, have you collected the car yet? if not, why not get the opc to replace them as part of the deal. if they refuse then gt a written undertaking from them that they if they are found not to be servicable.

as nice as the car is, if the Pccbs are ed then the car should either be sold with steels or it should be 10k cheaper

[slippydiff]

supermono said:

Looking at the front brakes on this GT2 I've just bought () I see some darkish areas that look a bit worn in places. Fronts look a bit different to rears which have a more homegenous look. Now the guy selling it (OPC) said they wouldn't sell me a car with knackered disks

Does anyone have any photographs of knackered disks? I'm not saying these ones are knackered but I'd like to see what knackered ones look like.

I was thinking of taking it straight round to someone to have them looked at when I collect it. Where's the best place in Bristol/Surrey/Norfolk?

SM

Right up there with "the cheque's in the post" and "I promise not to come in your mouth"........................

DO NOT accept reassurances from a shiny suited salesman who is only thinking of his commission when he makes comments such as this.
As for wheeling it around elsewhere to have it inspected as soon as you've collected it, forget it, once the car has left the confines of the dealer and you return it in a few hours,days, weeks time with the front discs in tatters, the usual spiel will be spouted about "driver abuse etc etc" By then it will be too late and you'll not see any redress.


I very much doubt you'll get the selling dealer or anybody at Reading to admit the discs on your car are unserviceable (if indeed they are) purely because it would remove a huge chunk of the profit from the car, but also open the floodgates for any other disgruntled owners to claim replacements.

I suggest you take some pictures of the discs in question and send them to the usual suspects JZM, Fearnsport, etc and ask them what they're views are.
I'd be willing to give you my totally unbiased opinion too

[cableguy]

Also remember that its the front brakes which do most of the work, meaning that there will be of course slightly more wear and visual discolouration compared to the rear.

As pointed out it would be very advisable to get something in writing from the OPC, as well as a second opinion from another experienced source prior to collection.

C.

[guyvert1]

supermono said:

Looking at the front brakes on this GT2 I've just bought ()
SM

WELL DONE!!

Did you part ex your TT with them?

[Rob_R]

Pay someone who knows what they are doing to go with you and take a look at the disks. The OPC should be honest with you however, I'd regret letting a car go with a couple of stone chips let alone buggered PCCBs.

[2something]

slippydiff said:

supermono said:

Looking at the front brakes on this GT2 I've just bought () I see some darkish areas that look a bit worn in places. Fronts look a bit different to rears which have a more homegenous look. Now the guy selling it (OPC) said they wouldn't sell me a car with knackered disks

Does anyone have any photographs of knackered disks? I'm not saying these ones are knackered but I'd like to see what knackered ones look like.

I was thinking of taking it straight round to someone to have them looked at when I collect it. Where's the best place in Bristol/Surrey/Norfolk?

SM

Right up there with "the cheque's in the post" and "I promise not to come in your mouth"........................

DO NOT accept reassurances from a shiny suited salesman who is only thinking of his commission when he makes comments such as this.
As for wheeling it around elsewhere to have it inspected as soon as you've collected it, forget it, once the car has left the confines of the dealer and you return it in a few hours,days, weeks time with the front discs in tatters, the usual spiel will be spouted about "driver abuse etc etc" By then it will be too late and you'll not see any redress.


I very much doubt you'll get the selling dealer or anybody at Reading to admit the discs on your car are unserviceable (if indeed they are) purely because it would remove a huge chunk of the profit from the car, but also open the floodgates for any other disgruntled owners to claim replacements.

I suggest you take some pictures of the discs in question and send them to the usual suspects JZM, Fearnsport, etc and ask them what they're views are.
I'd be willing to give you my totally unbiased opinion too

Wot he said, please don't take the "oh it will be alright, they'll look after me approach".
Some places might, others won't. Ask yourself, would you like to make say 8k on a deal and then lose most of it replacing the front disks ?

[anonymous-user]

supermono said:

Now the guy selling it (OPC) said they wouldn't sell me a car with knackered disks.

i would actually make a point of laughing at a salesman who said that to me

Edited by fbrs on Wednesday 11th April 08:27

[r1_jon]

If you are seeing darkish areas on the fronts it does sound like they are on their way out. As others have said, once they start to go it doesn't take long for them to be totally shot. I don't think they will put anything in writing to say they will replace them. You would probably be better getting them to knock £2.5k off the asking price and drive straight out of their shiny showroom down to JZM for some alcons.

Quick survey - how many GT2 owners on here have had to replace their PCCBs?

1 - r1_jon - opc inspected - disks given clean bill of health - 3000 miles later disks are shot and replaced with alcons.

[supermono]

I know those guys at reading from when the clutch broke due to manufacturing defect when half worn and with no signs of abuse (as confirmed by the experts at Cambridge OPC) and all the pricks kept repeating to me was that "clutches wear out sir". I wanted to reach down the phone and strangle them, so I'm under no illusions about their post sales attitude, but given the car was bought out of Porsche I thought that was contributary.

However... If I buy a car from an OPC, drive it 50 miles to a specialist who writes a report about the brakes saying they're knackered, I can't see how I could lose a case in court under the sales of goods act. I honestly don't see how Porsche would want to even fight that case...

Or am I naive?

SM

[guyvert1]

I know its hassle and you don't want to seem finicky with them, but in all truth I'd sort it out before you take it away, I'd call them up and mention it again, if they still give the usual shite then tell them you'll send down an expert to report, if they find they are faulty you'll expect them to be replaced along with the cost of the expert knocked off the price or walk away...

[2something]

If you've taken your car for a service and they point out the PCCBs are worn and might need replacing soon and the thought of selling had crossed your mind recently, then wouldn't now be a good time ?

[ballast]

SM - having read the various horror stories, I had Solihull check mine a number of times prior to buying the car - visually they looked 'marked' - assured all OK and have been for the last 4k miles.

Look at the pic on page 20 of Total911 (April) - you can see the state of my front disc - both fronts look the same.

Don't know if that's good or bad, they seem to stop the car pretty well though....

[slippydiff]

supermono said:

I know those guys at reading from when the clutch broke due to manufacturing defect when half worn and with no signs of abuse (as confirmed by the experts at Cambridge OPC) and all the pricks kept repeating to me was that "clutches wear out sir". I wanted to reach down the phone and strangle them, so I'm under no illusions about their post sales attitude, but given the car was bought out of Porsche I thought that was contributary.

However... If I buy a car from an OPC, drive it 50 miles to a specialist who writes a report about the brakes saying they're knackered, I can't see how I could lose a case in court under the sales of goods act. I honestly don't see how Porsche would want to even fight that case...

Or am I naive?

SM

Possibly so, I'd write to the DP stating you have concerns over the condition of the discs on the car.
Make it clear it is an issue which concerns you to the degree that you'll walk away from the deal if they won't give a WRITTEN undertaking that the discs are serviceable for the forseeable future (ie that they're not in the early stages of de-lamination) this if the brakes are treated sensibly and used only on the road.
I suggest that you MUST get photos of the discs in their current condition with a note of the date and the mileage.

When all is said and done, brake discs (no matter how expensive), are a consumable, which begs the question, how long is "serviceable for the forseeable future" ? ie can you expect them to last 6 months ?, a year ?, two years ? if used on the road (or if used on the track a couple of trackdays ?)

Herein lies the problem, a steel disc can easily be checked for cracks and measured for wear, the PCCBs have no such easy tell tales to indicate their imminent failure (apart from the surface deterioration) the problem with this surface deterioration seems to be that some people say it's normal and thus OK, whereas from personal experience I say it means the ceramic layer of the disc is already damaged.

To my knowledge, Porsche have never released any type of bulletin or information which gives a clear and concise method of establishing what is normal wear and tear and what is unserviceable. Thus there is nothing to which a techician can to refer to in order to categorically state a discs serviceability.

Edited by slippydiff on Wednesday 11th April 12:08

[supermono]

I've added some pictures of the disks... What do you think?

http://community.webshots.com/album/5

SM

[slippydiff]

supermono said:

I've added some pictures of the disks... What do you think?

http://community.webshots.com/album/5

SM

Excellent pictures.
In my very humble opinion ? they're absolutely f*cked. The ceramic layer has already failed. (The reason the car has been sold ?)
Seriously.
A weeks worth of hooning (of the type you do when you have a new toy) will kill them.
If I'm really honest they're in worse condition than mine when I bought the car.

If you want to discuss further PM me with a phone number.

Edited by slippydiff on Wednesday 11th April 12:43

[r1_jon]

slippydiff said:

supermono said:

I've added some pictures of the disks... What do you think?

http://community.webshots.com/album/5

SM

Excellent pictures.
In my very humble opinion ? they're absolutely f*cked. The ceramic layer has already failed. (The reason the car has been sold ?)
Seriously.
A weeks worth of hooning (of the type you do when you have a new toy) will kill them.
If I'm really honest they're in worse condition than mine when I bought the car.

If you want to discuss further PM me with a phone number.

Edited by slippydiff on Wednesday 11th April 12:43

Seconded. Without a shadow of a doubt they are well on their way to to being completely f*cked. Mine looked brand new compared to the state of those discs. How the OPC is telling you anything else is beyond me !

[slippydiff]

Picture of SMs' PCCB disc, the areas highlighted in red are as the ceramic layer should appear
The area highlighted in purple shows the carbon fibres which form the "body" of the disc exposed now that the ceramic layer has failed and been ground away by the brake pads.

Having spoken to someone with vast amounts of knowledge regarding "real" carbon/carbon brake discs, I'm told the ceramic layer isn't actually "formed" on the PCCB disc surface by some clever process, it's actually a very thin layer of ceramic that's stuck on to the face of the body of the disc using a very powerful adhesive.

The layer of cermic is only 15 'thou thick Thus if it's consistently abused/overheated (or indeed damaged by a stone during a trip in to a gravel trap), it's not ideally engineered.