944 Buying Advice Please
Discussion
I'm thinking of buying my first porsche and wondered if someone could give me some advice on whether on paper its a good deal?
It's a 1989 944S2 with 140,000 miles. The interior is in vgc and the exterior has just been resprayed (though I'm not worried as I know the person I'm buying it off and its just because the paint was faded). One lady owner (honestly) and bought as a demonstrator. FSH and always big work done at the dealership and little normal services done at a normal garage.
I've been to see it and it looks really good - but I don't really know what to look for. He just spent ~£6k replacing the brake system and he is the sort of guy that would have fixed any problems. He's selling it for personal reasons. (can you advise more things I should check)
He wants about £4,500 for it. Does this seem reasonable? The parkes guide etc seem so say about £3800 for a good car, Which makes me think this is a bit pricey. Please let me know if you can advise....
It's a 1989 944S2 with 140,000 miles. The interior is in vgc and the exterior has just been resprayed (though I'm not worried as I know the person I'm buying it off and its just because the paint was faded). One lady owner (honestly) and bought as a demonstrator. FSH and always big work done at the dealership and little normal services done at a normal garage.
I've been to see it and it looks really good - but I don't really know what to look for. He just spent ~£6k replacing the brake system and he is the sort of guy that would have fixed any problems. He's selling it for personal reasons. (can you advise more things I should check)
He wants about £4,500 for it. Does this seem reasonable? The parkes guide etc seem so say about £3800 for a good car, Which makes me think this is a bit pricey. Please let me know if you can advise....
first thing as i cant comment on the value, is get an independent inspection from a specialist. I had one done before buying my 968 and its well worth it for your own peace of mind. Also any problems highlighted can be used to negotiate price ...
i paid above average for the 968 cos its sooooo awesome
Good luk
i paid above average for the 968 cos its sooooo awesome
Good luk
Have a search around on the PCGB forum - you need to register (free), but don't have to join the club.
One thing worth mentioning before anyone else does, check the camshafts - one side is belt driven like the 8v, but the other is chain driven from the first, and chain / sprockets will wear eventually necessitating new cams - circa £800 parts plus labour, and that's if it doesn't go bang first! These aren't on the official Porsche service schedule, so even a full Service History isn't a guarantee.
Don't let that put you off though, fun reliable cars if you get a good one!
One thing worth mentioning before anyone else does, check the camshafts - one side is belt driven like the 8v, but the other is chain driven from the first, and chain / sprockets will wear eventually necessitating new cams - circa £800 parts plus labour, and that's if it doesn't go bang first! These aren't on the official Porsche service schedule, so even a full Service History isn't a guarantee.
Don't let that put you off though, fun reliable cars if you get a good one!
WillJ said:
Thanks all for the advice - I'll keep it in mind - especially the Cam Belt. Does anyone know where I could find a good porsche specialist in the bristol area for a check up?
Will
From my recent 944 hunting experience I would suggest that at that sort of mileage (140k) you will probably find it is using a substantial amount of oil. Or has it had a top-end rebuild recently?
Come to think of it, are you able to post up the service history sos we can all have a good butchers?
Best,
Adam
Also ask what oil he has been running it on.
If you can, take a look in the history to see what has been done recently. The price paid for these pales into insignificance if you buy a turkey - but good ones are ok running costs wise (27mpg, classic insurance). £4500 isn't a huge wad for a cherished S2.
Then just the normal stuff - tyres, alloys, originality, suspension wear, when was cluch replaced/ dinks in bumpers (as lady owner!)
To get a 6K bill for brakes I assume it now has GT3 ceramic jobbies!
If you can, take a look in the history to see what has been done recently. The price paid for these pales into insignificance if you buy a turkey - but good ones are ok running costs wise (27mpg, classic insurance). £4500 isn't a huge wad for a cherished S2.
Then just the normal stuff - tyres, alloys, originality, suspension wear, when was cluch replaced/ dinks in bumpers (as lady owner!)
To get a 6K bill for brakes I assume it now has GT3 ceramic jobbies!
WillJ said:
Thanks all for the advice - I'll keep it in mind - especially the Cam Belt. Does anyone know where I could find a good porsche specialist in the bristol area for a check up?
There's one or two. A place up towards Gloucester F of Dean way. Sorry not sure of names etc.
There is Porschtech in Bristol if they still exist or here
www.porschmode.clubporsche.com/index.html
which may be a part of old Porschtech if they are no longer.
Bit further afield are Steve Bull in Devizes or even Northway in Reading.
Agree with above, be worth becoming a member of TiPEC & going to a meet to chath to owners who'll give you the inside track on what to look for.
www.tipec.net
www.porsche-1.net
RO TiPEC SELNK Region!
www.tipec.net
www.porsche-1.net
RO TiPEC SELNK Region!
I'm no great expert on used values but I run a "nice" 1991 S2 with 83K on the clock, leather and full history. Its going to get the cam belts/ rollers etc, new water pump and ignition leads next month and I'd value it £5k tops for a private sale.
When it comes time to sell I like to put a realistic value on my cars so they sell and don't sit in the free add's for ages.
Go out and see some more cars, I think you could do better.
When it comes time to sell I like to put a realistic value on my cars so they sell and don't sit in the free add's for ages.
Go out and see some more cars, I think you could do better.
Much more info and pictures on www.hartech.org 150 page buyers guide and info pack.
Just got in today another S2, just bought without a specialist check over - got a broken valve spring, head gasket, water pump gone, camshafts worn - going to cost a lot to fix - but the car looks great and probably worth the money he paid - but research first - everywhere you can and see as many as possible before deciding.
Baz Hartech
Just got in today another S2, just bought without a specialist check over - got a broken valve spring, head gasket, water pump gone, camshafts worn - going to cost a lot to fix - but the car looks great and probably worth the money he paid - but research first - everywhere you can and see as many as possible before deciding.
Baz Hartech
Baz,
Can you put a life span on the cam chain, assuming its been well looked after ?
I gave mine a visual last year, the cam sprokets looked perfect but its hard the gauge the chain. In reality they could snap when new (if faulty) or last many years and miles.
Or is one of those "how long is a peice of string" questions ?
Can you put a life span on the cam chain, assuming its been well looked after ?
I gave mine a visual last year, the cam sprokets looked perfect but its hard the gauge the chain. In reality they could snap when new (if faulty) or last many years and miles.
Or is one of those "how long is a peice of string" questions ?
Yes cam chains last about 40K to 45K then are stretched too much and deteriorate more quickly - that is of course on new or good sprockets, but if the camshaft never received new chains at the first 45K and thereafter and so the sprockets are well worn then a new chain may need replacing after 30-35K to avoid damaging the sprockets and breaking the teeth off.
Baz
Baz
When I first saw the cam chain design on a 944S many years ago now I contacted Porsche for the service intervals for replacement only to be told that it was a service for life item.
Knowing how poor the general design was I started replacing chains on customer cars and informed/warned owners through publicity in various magazines, our buyers guide and the Internet that I thought they would fail and needed replacing. Many said then I was wrong because we had no instances of failure then as the cars were too new and had not covered enough miles. While we did the work we recorded the dimensions of those engine parts (including the stretch of the chain) and also of those that started to come in some months later having failed and those that had teeth missing but were still running etc and soon had a simple graph in which some sizes never failed, others always failed and there was as always a grey area in the middle. This resulted in being part of our service sheet resulting in a simple measuring check and resulting advice to change nothing, everything or just some parts which has proven foolproof since.
Despite our warnings, there followed many examples of owners having failures including cylinder heads cracking and at that time there was a denial that there was a problem with the design, despite having ordered, manufactured and supplied Worldwide hundreds if not thousands of replacement camshafts, tensioners, chains and a few cylinder heads etc. Now years later some customers are still unaware of the problem although frequent chain changes can minimise failures at modest cost. We even still occassionally get in a snapped cam belt!!!!
Those engines on which we changed chains before 50K and then at least every 45K never failed and ran up to over 200K on original camshafts and many with similar treatment at higher mileages similarly proved very reliable.
Some needed at least a new inlet cam - some both but it is a manageable problem as long as you know how to measure the wear on the camshaf sprockets and what the limits are and check and replace when the cam belt is changed. The chain is so cheap if ever it is off just change it!!
Porsche later altered the tooth design so that the replaced camshafts would last longer before teeth came off - good for them and everyone else.
I don't think it is a severe technical failure - only perhaps that Porsche did not request a change of cam chain when the cam belt was changed - as that would have rendered most cars 100% reliable in this area.
There are many other parts of all models that do not last as long as the rest of the design but usually that is not because those parts are crap but that by comparison the rest of the car is superb.
Main Agents expect to look after cars from New and relativley new and although this chain usually fails between 70 and 120K - that is not in my mind a bad lifespan - if only there had been better advice and less denial in the early stages, many more owners would have saved money and improved their opinion of the marque. I mean no one complains about changing a cam belt anymore because it is an accepted requirement - or a water pump after 5 years etc etc.
These typical problems continue today in a very small way on most models and are praxctically impossible to eradicate as testing would never allow enough time to replicate the continual heating and cooling of engines and deterioration of rubber, plastic and metals in use and over time (and are probably common in all very high performance Sports cars), but it seems that it is usually the Independent sector that are more open about the causes and willing to find affordable solutions - which is in my view a shame.
Baz
Knowing how poor the general design was I started replacing chains on customer cars and informed/warned owners through publicity in various magazines, our buyers guide and the Internet that I thought they would fail and needed replacing. Many said then I was wrong because we had no instances of failure then as the cars were too new and had not covered enough miles. While we did the work we recorded the dimensions of those engine parts (including the stretch of the chain) and also of those that started to come in some months later having failed and those that had teeth missing but were still running etc and soon had a simple graph in which some sizes never failed, others always failed and there was as always a grey area in the middle. This resulted in being part of our service sheet resulting in a simple measuring check and resulting advice to change nothing, everything or just some parts which has proven foolproof since.
Despite our warnings, there followed many examples of owners having failures including cylinder heads cracking and at that time there was a denial that there was a problem with the design, despite having ordered, manufactured and supplied Worldwide hundreds if not thousands of replacement camshafts, tensioners, chains and a few cylinder heads etc. Now years later some customers are still unaware of the problem although frequent chain changes can minimise failures at modest cost. We even still occassionally get in a snapped cam belt!!!!
Those engines on which we changed chains before 50K and then at least every 45K never failed and ran up to over 200K on original camshafts and many with similar treatment at higher mileages similarly proved very reliable.
Some needed at least a new inlet cam - some both but it is a manageable problem as long as you know how to measure the wear on the camshaf sprockets and what the limits are and check and replace when the cam belt is changed. The chain is so cheap if ever it is off just change it!!
Porsche later altered the tooth design so that the replaced camshafts would last longer before teeth came off - good for them and everyone else.
I don't think it is a severe technical failure - only perhaps that Porsche did not request a change of cam chain when the cam belt was changed - as that would have rendered most cars 100% reliable in this area.
There are many other parts of all models that do not last as long as the rest of the design but usually that is not because those parts are crap but that by comparison the rest of the car is superb.
Main Agents expect to look after cars from New and relativley new and although this chain usually fails between 70 and 120K - that is not in my mind a bad lifespan - if only there had been better advice and less denial in the early stages, many more owners would have saved money and improved their opinion of the marque. I mean no one complains about changing a cam belt anymore because it is an accepted requirement - or a water pump after 5 years etc etc.
These typical problems continue today in a very small way on most models and are praxctically impossible to eradicate as testing would never allow enough time to replicate the continual heating and cooling of engines and deterioration of rubber, plastic and metals in use and over time (and are probably common in all very high performance Sports cars), but it seems that it is usually the Independent sector that are more open about the causes and willing to find affordable solutions - which is in my view a shame.
Baz
Gassing Station | Porsche General | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff