Stolen Porsche - legal/moral position
Discussion
Am in the process of purchasing a donor car to compete in a local race championship. Have located a much unloved 996 (1998) which has been sitting outdoors in a public space for a year as the owner has returned to the UK.
It transpires the car was legally registered in his name in Dubai about 3 years ago and subsequently discovered to have been stolen (am told in Europe but no further details). What I understand from the local police is that he is entitled to legal ownership of the car (in this country) but cannot transfer to anyone else to be registered for use on the road. Nor can he ship it back home. In other words, it's his for life.
As an unliquidated and depreciating asset, the guy just wants to get rid but no-one will buy. Seems like an ideal opportunity for someone (me!) to buy it for the sole purpose of banging panels on a track.
The question is, given that no-one here will buy, and he won't ship it overseas (presumably its rightful owner would be an insurance company somewhere else in the world), should I make the effort to locate the rightful owner first, and come to some agreement?
If so, how? I have the VIN - will try the main dealer tomorrow and see how these things work. Any other route? Am thinking out loud here, so maybe I'll get more clarity after speaking with the dealer...
Harris
It transpires the car was legally registered in his name in Dubai about 3 years ago and subsequently discovered to have been stolen (am told in Europe but no further details). What I understand from the local police is that he is entitled to legal ownership of the car (in this country) but cannot transfer to anyone else to be registered for use on the road. Nor can he ship it back home. In other words, it's his for life.
As an unliquidated and depreciating asset, the guy just wants to get rid but no-one will buy. Seems like an ideal opportunity for someone (me!) to buy it for the sole purpose of banging panels on a track.
The question is, given that no-one here will buy, and he won't ship it overseas (presumably its rightful owner would be an insurance company somewhere else in the world), should I make the effort to locate the rightful owner first, and come to some agreement?
If so, how? I have the VIN - will try the main dealer tomorrow and see how these things work. Any other route? Am thinking out loud here, so maybe I'll get more clarity after speaking with the dealer...
Harris
I would make a fair attempt at locating the true owner, should be simple enough by finding out country of origin and hpi or equivalent, then if you find it's "owner" is an insurance company you have a choice to make..........
Could all end up a bit messy though, depends how much it is.
Could all end up a bit messy though, depends how much it is.
From what you've written, I am understanding this:
1) Current owner cannot export or sell on locally for road use
2) You don't want to export it, or use it on road
In which case, it sounds like an ideal opportunity for you. The more info you discover, the more chance of the car having a wider potential market.
At the moment, the owner can either keep it where it is (not being used and either valueless or depreciating, depends which way you look at it), or sell to someone local who's not going to use it on the road. If there's only you wanting to do this, you should get a really good price.
1) Current owner cannot export or sell on locally for road use
2) You don't want to export it, or use it on road
In which case, it sounds like an ideal opportunity for you. The more info you discover, the more chance of the car having a wider potential market.
At the moment, the owner can either keep it where it is (not being used and either valueless or depreciating, depends which way you look at it), or sell to someone local who's not going to use it on the road. If there's only you wanting to do this, you should get a really good price.
wildoliver said:
I would make a fair attempt at locating the true owner
thegoose said:
At the moment, the owner can either keep it where it is (not being used and either valueless or depreciating, depends which way you look at it), or sell to someone local who's not going to use it on the road.
My thinking as well. Has taken me a while to respond as I've been trying to get more info from the local traffic police but haven't had the time.
Anyway, normally, the next step would be this: the British owner (no longer in the country) would have to explain to the local CID in person that he bought the car in good faith, had it correctly registered, and that subsequent to this the car was discovered as stolen. However, since he's obviously not going to make a trip to do that (with no guarantee that he could transfer ownership), I'm left with a dilemma: I really want the car, but don't want to be dealing in stolen goods. Therefore I would feel much better if I made a reasonable attempt at locating the owner and coming to some agreement (highly unlikely they would be interested in recovering this car).
Despite the potential for it to get messy, is there any way to locate the legal owner (ie most likely an insurance company)? The service manual is stamped with an Italian dealership, but the language barrier prevents me from trying to trace the car via this route (imagine the complexity of the many different telephone calls!).
Is there any way I can provide a VIN to a Europe-wide organisation who can tell me the name of the owner? Any Italian Porsche owners out there?
Needless to say, I would like to do this the right way. Besides, it will help to keep all your insurance costs down!
Cheers,
Harris
Porsche AG will know to what dealer it was originally sold; the trail would start there. PCGB in Reading would liaise for you, I'm sure.
Assuming that the person from whom it was stolen were located, your friend is being told that that person or his insurer has no claim - even though the theft appears to have taken place in the EU?
If the original ower were located, and if he or insurer did have a claim, then the car's non-transferability to another road registration would be resolved.
In that case, its value would be greater than it is now with its non-transferable status.
flemke said:
Assuming that the person from whom it was stolen were located, your friend is being told that that person or his insurer has no claim - even though the theft appears to have taken place in the EU?
Well, UAE law can be a funny old thing. I have some information from a knowledgeable source: a local who is well connected with the main dealer, (though he could of course be wrong as he is not a lawyer), and also from a local independent franchise who have passed on this car's details to me (which in itself may be an inherent conflict of interest). They say that provided the first registration took place in good faith (ie the car's VIN did not at that time generate a red flag in the local systems), that a subsequent transfer of a car which
is discovered afterwards to be stolen "merely" requires one to explain oneself to the local plod, who are likely to seek redress against the importing dealer but not the legally registered owner. Hence any onward transfer would be legit, and a foreign insurance company would not be able to enforce its security under UAE law. However this is not necessarily the morally correct position, so I would like to delve a little further.
I may be shooting myself in the foot here, but if I do find the insurance company, then I suspect they will probably already by now have written off the asset (the theft probably took place three years ago since that's how long the car's been here). In addition, the car's history and general aesthetic appearance makes it good only for breaking into parts, and one has to question from a cost/benefit standpoint whether they would be prepared to send someone out to recover the car. Hence if I come to some arrangement with them as well as the existing owner simultaneously (you can see this all ending in tears and disappointment, right?
), then I will be on the right side of legal and my conscience is clear. On the other hand, if I use reasonable endeavours, but cannot locate the legal owner, then my conscience is clear and I can transact with the current owner, albeit without any legal transfer of ownership. However this means the car cannot be registered for road use, which of course is no issue for me, it just means the car is legally ambiguous.
Next step: Porsche GB.
I would not know which jurisdiction trumps the other, although I would think that the car's presence in the UK, and the fact that it was stolen within the EU (it seems), would weigh on the side of European jurisdiction.
IINM, in the EU, stolen property does not belong to the person who possesses it at the time of discovery, even if that person acquired it in a way that was completely legal in and of itself.
IINM, in the EU, stolen property does not belong to the person who possesses it at the time of discovery, even if that person acquired it in a way that was completely legal in and of itself.
I think you need to check the legal situation here. You say, "What I understand from the local police is that he is entitled to legal ownership of the car (in this country) but cannot transfer to anyone else to be registered for use on the road. Nor can he ship it back home." but I can't see how that fits with English law. It's a while since I studied this area so don't take my word for it but from my memory you either have title or you don't. I don't know of any situation where the law says you have title but you can't transfer it nor where you have title but there is some sort of export restriction. Are you certain that is the true story?
flemke said:
I would not know which jurisdiction trumps the other, although I would think that the car's presence in the UK, and the fact that it was stolen within the EU (it seems), would weigh on the side of European jurisdiction.
IINM, in the EU, stolen property does not belong to the person who possesses it at the time of discovery, even if that person acquired it in a way that was completely legal in and of itself.
IINM, in the EU, stolen property does not belong to the person who possesses it at the time of discovery, even if that person acquired it in a way that was completely legal in and of itself.
Not sure I follow: the car is in the UAE so I believe enforcement over an asset would have to take place under local jurisdiction.
Agree with your second point, but UAE property ownership laws are still fairly undeveloped so I'm fairly certain the same would not apply here.
jquin said:
you either have title or you don't. I don't know of any situation where the law says you have title but you can't transfer it nor where you have title but there is some sort of export restriction. Are you certain that is the true story?
The issue is he can transfer but he must attend the traffic department in person, which means he currently has legal title but in order for the process of transferring title to be complete, he needs to show a good faith transaction occurred at the time of purchase (since the discovery was subsequent to the purchase). This is not how it would work in the EU as asset ownership laws, car registration transfers and police databases are far more sophisticated.
As to whether that is the true story, I am trying to confirm from various sources.
Harris_I said:
flemke said:
I would not know which jurisdiction trumps the other, although I would think that the car's presence in the UK, and the fact that it was stolen within the EU (it seems), would weigh on the side of European jurisdiction.
IINM, in the EU, stolen property does not belong to the person who possesses it at the time of discovery, even if that person acquired it in a way that was completely legal in and of itself.
IINM, in the EU, stolen property does not belong to the person who possesses it at the time of discovery, even if that person acquired it in a way that was completely legal in and of itself.
Not sure I follow: the car is in the UAE so I believe enforcement over an asset would have to take place under local jurisdiction.
Agree with your second point, but UAE property ownership laws are still fairly undeveloped so I'm fairly certain the same would not apply here.
Okay. I mis-interpreted your OP; where you said that it had been sitting outdoors for a year and the owner had returned to the UK, I thought that you meant that it had been sitting outdoors in the UK, where you had inspected it.
The ethical question is a personal one. On a practical level, I'd be cautious of bringing into the UK something that was stolen within the EU and could be identified or traced as such.
Whatever you do, don't rely on what you're told by the local force. The likelihood that they are entirely correct in a complex and unusual case involving international treaties is slim.
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