Discussion
In this month's GT Purely Porsche. Fantastic feature, not that I need to make my GT2 any faster (yet!)
Intererstingly though the tuner guy once again quoted as saying it's "totally undetectable". Question then -- a)how do they know the code went in there and b)if my engine blew up and OPC said they'd discovered that it'd been tuned and told me to go bo
ocks, would these guys pick up the bill.
Serious questions, illuminating read.
SM
Intererstingly though the tuner guy once again quoted as saying it's "totally undetectable". Question then -- a)how do they know the code went in there and b)if my engine blew up and OPC said they'd discovered that it'd been tuned and told me to go bo
ocks, would these guys pick up the bill.Serious questions, illuminating read.
SM
Good question. I'd like to know their definition of 'undetectable'. I think they mean you're able to put the standard map back on prior to taking it to the OPC without tripping the reflash count in the ECU. I believe this is how the REVO works. Obviously if anything goes horribly wrong and it gets to the OPC before you can flash it back it'll be detectable.
Oh yea of little faith. A couple of answers rolled into one reply:-
1] Undetectable by the dealer, no flash counter trip but of course Porsche in Germany or Bosch could see that "something" had gone on but exactly what would be more difficult for them to determine.
2] You want tuning and a warranty--buy Porsche upgrades at their prices or Ruf or RS at multiples of our pricing. The actual tuning does not cost what is charged by our German friends, the "brand" has a value and the warranty fund needs contribution to provide a great service, oh and marketing costs a lot/shows demonstrators etc all cost money. No slur on Alois Ruf he has done a great job and his products are excellent but at a price. Consumer choice.
3]620 lb-ft would be why the clutch gave up quite quickly, so an 1100nm one went in. It is more than "just a chip" but not mapped like the Germans do, for "headline horsepower" rather mapped for torque delivery where most drivers want it==3500 to 5000. The K24's run out of puff at 535 BHP without overspeeding them.
4] There are other "religions" other than Ruf or RS out there, the market is full of choices.
5] Vic you cannot compare air/oil with kettles
Cheers
Big Al
1] Undetectable by the dealer, no flash counter trip but of course Porsche in Germany or Bosch could see that "something" had gone on but exactly what would be more difficult for them to determine.
2] You want tuning and a warranty--buy Porsche upgrades at their prices or Ruf or RS at multiples of our pricing. The actual tuning does not cost what is charged by our German friends, the "brand" has a value and the warranty fund needs contribution to provide a great service, oh and marketing costs a lot/shows demonstrators etc all cost money. No slur on Alois Ruf he has done a great job and his products are excellent but at a price. Consumer choice.
3]620 lb-ft would be why the clutch gave up quite quickly, so an 1100nm one went in. It is more than "just a chip" but not mapped like the Germans do, for "headline horsepower" rather mapped for torque delivery where most drivers want it==3500 to 5000. The K24's run out of puff at 535 BHP without overspeeding them.
4] There are other "religions" other than Ruf or RS out there, the market is full of choices.
5] Vic you cannot compare air/oil with kettles
Cheers
Big Al
Wow, deja vu! Just like Rennlist last year, Allan!
Think Bosch would be pretty clued up on how to decipher what had gone on in the ecu, seen as they designed the software.
I know RUF offer a warranty, but as far as I know RS Tuning offer no form of warranty, to set the record straight. Nor do I see them marketing themselves bar stickers on race cars on track and at shows, have you seen their site .... up market isn’t it, not.
It makes me smile when tuners such as yourself try the line that we are cheaper than the German's but offer the same / better products. I don't disagree that the premium German tuners are frighteningly expensive, for what, in the light of the UK tuning industry many punters would perceive as modest power gains. I don't know about the R&D at RUF but I bet it is brilliant (as Adam will attest
). Knowing a little about the RS Tuning set up, and the hrs of research done on their engine dyno to produce the cohesive power kits for various models (marketed through Cargraphic), it does explain the almost farcical amounts of money they charge for their products.
This is the same engine dyno, and same people's expertise (i.e Reinhold Schmirler and co) that build and map the finest and most successful Porsche turbo race engines in the world! Think of the Alzen and Edo cars, Cargraphic GT3 RSC (Tuner GP 05 & 06), not to mention this.
Does it not make sense that their products for road cars will not be the most cutting edge available then?!
Won't comment on your different way of mapping to the Germans, because I understand in my limited knowledge that they map for high sustained horse power and big torque with great drivability. I know my car drives very smoothly with its modest outputs. I guess one has to discern whether your power claims are honest in reality.
I don't doubt for a moment your products are very good, but IMHO punters should not be under the illusion that your products can be directly compared with the likes of RS Tuning’s fare.
Think Bosch would be pretty clued up on how to decipher what had gone on in the ecu, seen as they designed the software.
I know RUF offer a warranty, but as far as I know RS Tuning offer no form of warranty, to set the record straight. Nor do I see them marketing themselves bar stickers on race cars on track and at shows, have you seen their site .... up market isn’t it, not.
It makes me smile when tuners such as yourself try the line that we are cheaper than the German's but offer the same / better products. I don't disagree that the premium German tuners are frighteningly expensive, for what, in the light of the UK tuning industry many punters would perceive as modest power gains. I don't know about the R&D at RUF but I bet it is brilliant (as Adam will attest
). Knowing a little about the RS Tuning set up, and the hrs of research done on their engine dyno to produce the cohesive power kits for various models (marketed through Cargraphic), it does explain the almost farcical amounts of money they charge for their products. This is the same engine dyno, and same people's expertise (i.e Reinhold Schmirler and co) that build and map the finest and most successful Porsche turbo race engines in the world! Think of the Alzen and Edo cars, Cargraphic GT3 RSC (Tuner GP 05 & 06), not to mention this.
Does it not make sense that their products for road cars will not be the most cutting edge available then?!
Won't comment on your different way of mapping to the Germans, because I understand in my limited knowledge that they map for high sustained horse power and big torque with great drivability. I know my car drives very smoothly with its modest outputs. I guess one has to discern whether your power claims are honest in reality.
I don't doubt for a moment your products are very good, but IMHO punters should not be under the illusion that your products can be directly compared with the likes of RS Tuning’s fare.
Edited by MOD500 on Friday 25th May 11:17
Weltmeister said:
1] Undetectable by the dealer, no flash counter trip but of course Porsche in Germany or Bosch could see that "something" had gone on but exactly what would be more difficult for them to determine.
2] You want tuning and a warranty
Please don't think I'm getting involved with comparing you with other tuners, price or effectiveness, that's not the point of my OP. The quote in the magazine says "undetectable" full stop. 2] You want tuning and a warranty
1]If you're saying "hard to detect" that's the complete opposite, that's "detectable". If I bought your product on the basis of that magazine quote, it blew up (and there's absolutely no suggestion here that it will or indeed would be caused by your work even if it did), and Porsche tried to mitigage their 25/30k warranty claim and detected it, I'd feel pretty darned peed off if you then started backtracking on the magazine review's "undetectable" claim...
2]No, but I want to know the full picture before I buy. You're obviously not shy of telling the truth about this, as you've done so on a public forum, but it's surely misrepresented in the magazine...
SM
Weltmeister said:
Oh yea of little faith. A couple of answers rolled into one reply:-
1] Undetectable by the dealer, no flash counter trip but of course Porsche in Germany or Bosch could see that "something" had gone on but exactly what would be more difficult for them to determine.
2] You want tuning and a warranty--buy Porsche upgrades at their prices or Ruf or RS at multiples of our pricing. The actual tuning does not cost what is charged by our German friends, the "brand" has a value and the warranty fund needs contribution to provide a great service, oh and marketing costs a lot/shows demonstrators etc all cost money. No slur on Alois Ruf he has done a great job and his products are excellent but at a price. Consumer choice.
3]620 lb-ft would be why the clutch gave up quite quickly, so an 1100nm one went in. It is more than "just a chip" but not mapped like the Germans do, for "headline horsepower" rather mapped for torque delivery where most drivers want it==3500 to 5000. The K24's run out of puff at 535 BHP without overspeeding them.
4] There are other "religions" other than Ruf or RS out there, the market is full of choices.
5] Vic you cannot compare air/oil with kettles
Cheers
Big Al
Is this the same 620lb/ft of torque as in this thread?1] Undetectable by the dealer, no flash counter trip but of course Porsche in Germany or Bosch could see that "something" had gone on but exactly what would be more difficult for them to determine.
2] You want tuning and a warranty--buy Porsche upgrades at their prices or Ruf or RS at multiples of our pricing. The actual tuning does not cost what is charged by our German friends, the "brand" has a value and the warranty fund needs contribution to provide a great service, oh and marketing costs a lot/shows demonstrators etc all cost money. No slur on Alois Ruf he has done a great job and his products are excellent but at a price. Consumer choice.
3]620 lb-ft would be why the clutch gave up quite quickly, so an 1100nm one went in. It is more than "just a chip" but not mapped like the Germans do, for "headline horsepower" rather mapped for torque delivery where most drivers want it==3500 to 5000. The K24's run out of puff at 535 BHP without overspeeding them.
4] There are other "religions" other than Ruf or RS out there, the market is full of choices.
5] Vic you cannot compare air/oil with kettles
Cheers
Big Al
http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/showthread.p...
"We build excitement. Pure PS, not BS" lolPlease could you enlighten me as to how you got 620lb/ft of torque? Ruf just about making that with their 3,8l motors. And i wasnt aware that ruf used "headline bhp figures". They are always extremely conservative,
very best
adam
Chaps
I am not trying to compare Uk tuners to Ruf or RS, they are legendary, we have in the past discussed this on this and other forums. It merely points out that there are alternatives out there. As for warranty, can you realistically expect anyone to warrant an engine that they have not built or seen before, against a failure after a £2k reprogramme ? Not exactly a good commercial risk is it ? If we supplied a total package of built engine/turbo's etc then of course it is warranted.
As for magazine content, we do not get to proof read these so cannot be held responsible for factual innacuracies, when they occur.
When the programme is removed, it is gone and factory settings are restored. However as I said earlier it would be naieve to expect Bosch not to be able to see something went on ? As we have not had a failure no one knows for sure.
Adam I will tell you how we do it if you get Alois to send me his secrets [LOL]
Brett I seem to recall that you had issues regarding a dyno print on your car when it ran at our place, when compared with the results from another venue ? So it would serve no purpose IMHO.
The big thing with rear engined cars is the volume & temperature of air supplied to them when they are run on a chassis dyno. An engine dyno is usually in ideal conditions, it is certainly different to the conditions experienced tucked away in a hot engine bay at the wrong end of the car ! No two chassis dyno cells are the same, therefore no two results from different venues can be compared.
TTFN
Allan
I am not trying to compare Uk tuners to Ruf or RS, they are legendary, we have in the past discussed this on this and other forums. It merely points out that there are alternatives out there. As for warranty, can you realistically expect anyone to warrant an engine that they have not built or seen before, against a failure after a £2k reprogramme ? Not exactly a good commercial risk is it ? If we supplied a total package of built engine/turbo's etc then of course it is warranted.
As for magazine content, we do not get to proof read these so cannot be held responsible for factual innacuracies, when they occur.
When the programme is removed, it is gone and factory settings are restored. However as I said earlier it would be naieve to expect Bosch not to be able to see something went on ? As we have not had a failure no one knows for sure.
Adam I will tell you how we do it if you get Alois to send me his secrets [LOL]
Brett I seem to recall that you had issues regarding a dyno print on your car when it ran at our place, when compared with the results from another venue ? So it would serve no purpose IMHO.
The big thing with rear engined cars is the volume & temperature of air supplied to them when they are run on a chassis dyno. An engine dyno is usually in ideal conditions, it is certainly different to the conditions experienced tucked away in a hot engine bay at the wrong end of the car ! No two chassis dyno cells are the same, therefore no two results from different venues can be compared.
TTFN
Allan
Weltmeister said:
Brett I seem to recall that you had issues regarding a dyno print on your car when it ran at our place, when compared with the results from another venue ? So it would serve no purpose IMHO.
Allan
Hi Allan
I certainly DID have issues with your dyno readings ...but as you obviously have none for this...exactly where did you get the 620 ft lb figure...guesswork ??? divine inspiration ?? magic ?? vivid imagination ??
Or ???????????
All the best Brett
.....i don't know much about tuning but that is quite a dry witty retort.Weltmeister said:
Brett
It was a complete guess. I spent Aus $200k plus freight+duty+vat+installation+fans+++ on a machine just for window dressing. I usually just knock out dyno graphs using my old etch-a-sketch from primary school.
G'nit now
A
Hi It was a complete guess. I spent Aus $200k plus freight+duty+vat+installation+fans+++ on a machine just for window dressing. I usually just knock out dyno graphs using my old etch-a-sketch from primary school.
G'nit now
A
Ok so you DID DO A DYNO ????????...THEN LETS SEE IT ???????????
Not a hard question now is it ?????
All the best Brett
Weltmeister said:
Chaps
I am not trying to compare Uk tuners to Ruf or RS, they are legendary, we have in the past discussed this on this and other forums. It merely points out that there are alternatives out there. As for warranty, can you realistically expect anyone to warrant an engine that they have not built or seen before, against a failure after a £2k reprogramme ? Not exactly a good commercial risk is it ? If we supplied a total package of built engine/turbo's etc then of course it is warranted.
As for magazine content, we do not get to proof read these so cannot be held responsible for factual innacuracies, when they occur.
When the programme is removed, it is gone and factory settings are restored. However as I said earlier it would be naieve to expect Bosch not to be able to see something went on ? As we have not had a failure no one knows for sure.
Adam I will tell you how we do it if you get Alois to send me his secrets [LOL]
Brett I seem to recall that you had issues regarding a dyno print on your car when it ran at our place, when compared with the results from another venue ? So it would serve no purpose IMHO.
The big thing with rear engined cars is the volume & temperature of air supplied to them when they are run on a chassis dyno. An engine dyno is usually in ideal conditions, it is certainly different to the conditions experienced tucked away in a hot engine bay at the wrong end of the car ! No two chassis dyno cells are the same, therefore no two results from different venues can be compared.
TTFN
Allan
Allan id hapily use the dyno's and then post up for all to show if your gonna do me an excellent deal on mapping my gt2 which is undergoing some tasty mods I am not trying to compare Uk tuners to Ruf or RS, they are legendary, we have in the past discussed this on this and other forums. It merely points out that there are alternatives out there. As for warranty, can you realistically expect anyone to warrant an engine that they have not built or seen before, against a failure after a £2k reprogramme ? Not exactly a good commercial risk is it ? If we supplied a total package of built engine/turbo's etc then of course it is warranted.
As for magazine content, we do not get to proof read these so cannot be held responsible for factual innacuracies, when they occur.
When the programme is removed, it is gone and factory settings are restored. However as I said earlier it would be naieve to expect Bosch not to be able to see something went on ? As we have not had a failure no one knows for sure.
Adam I will tell you how we do it if you get Alois to send me his secrets [LOL]
Brett I seem to recall that you had issues regarding a dyno print on your car when it ran at our place, when compared with the results from another venue ? So it would serve no purpose IMHO.
The big thing with rear engined cars is the volume & temperature of air supplied to them when they are run on a chassis dyno. An engine dyno is usually in ideal conditions, it is certainly different to the conditions experienced tucked away in a hot engine bay at the wrong end of the car ! No two chassis dyno cells are the same, therefore no two results from different venues can be compared.
TTFN
Allan
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