Boring safety thread......
Discussion
I went for a spin in the 997S today down the M6.
Couple of 360s, into the barrier, couple of airbags went off, staved in the front, the front left corner, the back left corner and quite a bit of the back.
It looks like the car won't be written off but most of the comsmetics, plus radiators are no longer.
The point of this thread is the bit we don't normally discuss and only really consider when we are buying a family car.
It was safe......I didn't feel threatened until I got out of the car into the oncoming traffic and legged it to the hard shoulder.
The car had aquaplaned badly and I couldn't catch it.
Couple of 360s, into the barrier, couple of airbags went off, staved in the front, the front left corner, the back left corner and quite a bit of the back.
It looks like the car won't be written off but most of the comsmetics, plus radiators are no longer.
The point of this thread is the bit we don't normally discuss and only really consider when we are buying a family car.
It was safe......I didn't feel threatened until I got out of the car into the oncoming traffic and legged it to the hard shoulder.
The car had aquaplaned badly and I couldn't catch it.
Well I got caught in a massive cloud burst today and just pulled over and waited for it to stop as my GT3 was moving all over the road because of the sheer volume of water and I felt it was only a mater of time before it went and there was nothing I could have down about it. If all four tyres have no traction your buggered!
Bad luck and hopefully it will be ship shape and back on the road shortly!
Bad luck and hopefully it will be ship shape and back on the road shortly!
Aquaplaning is our worst nightmare i have been trying to subtly, without offending anyones ego, point it out that it is as dangerous as "the lifting off mid corner thing" mainly on the GT2 threads where the rear tyres are 315mm wide and theres no TC.
Last weekend i was competing in a rally, it had rained all weekend i was running brand new 195 section yokohama gravel tyres with very deep tread, i was aquaplaing at less than 80mph between trees 8ft either side of the car.
With Porsche tyres being considerably wider at the back you've got no chance and the electronics will not help, the cars going to rotate and you won't stop it.
I crashed my first 993C2 down hill at 50mph on a three lane carriageway and it wasn't even raining...water was running across the road from an earlier shower
When i am out in the GT2 on a motorway you will find me in the inside lane staggering the ruts to pick up the high parts of the tarmac.
Last weekend i was competing in a rally, it had rained all weekend i was running brand new 195 section yokohama gravel tyres with very deep tread, i was aquaplaing at less than 80mph between trees 8ft either side of the car.
With Porsche tyres being considerably wider at the back you've got no chance and the electronics will not help, the cars going to rotate and you won't stop it.
I crashed my first 993C2 down hill at 50mph on a three lane carriageway and it wasn't even raining...water was running across the road from an earlier shower
When i am out in the GT2 on a motorway you will find me in the inside lane staggering the ruts to pick up the high parts of the tarmac.
Edited by Pork_n_Beem on Friday 1st June 16:46
To get a glimpse of that rally go to www.madvideo.demon.co.uk
its was carnage that day, third of the stages cancelled, cars littering the venue all because of the water....
As these guys are the up and coming cream of rallying, UK, i hope it puts it into perspective when you are traveling at 70mph on a motorway and all of a sudden you are a passenger like these guys.
its was carnage that day, third of the stages cancelled, cars littering the venue all because of the water....
As these guys are the up and coming cream of rallying, UK, i hope it puts it into perspective when you are traveling at 70mph on a motorway and all of a sudden you are a passenger like these guys.
Edited by Pork_n_Beem on Friday 1st June 16:49
Pork_n_Beem said:
When i am out in the GT2 on a motorway you will find me in the inside lane staggering the ruts to pick up the high parts of the tarmac.
I drove back to London on the M3 in the torrential rain last Monday and it was a vile experience. Apart from people driving up each others ar5es I had a "near aquaplane miss" on a nasty puddle in the fast lane. Yes, I was going too fast and it really freaked me out. I turned off at the next junction and drove back into London on the B roads.. I now understand what you've all been going on about with the 911 and the wet! Lesson learned!
Sorry to hear of your experience, but happy to hear you are ok.
This thread has got me extra worried bcse I drive with young family on-board. I have been driving the 997s as a normal motor. This thread has rasied a few questions in my mind, and I'd appreciate your input:
1. Is it dramatically more dangerous to be in heavy rain, even with normal driving?
2. What risks am I taking in the rain, and how to minimise them plse?
3. Is the 911 "notorious" in the rain?
Will appreciate all answers.
This thread has got me extra worried bcse I drive with young family on-board. I have been driving the 997s as a normal motor. This thread has rasied a few questions in my mind, and I'd appreciate your input:
1. Is it dramatically more dangerous to be in heavy rain, even with normal driving?
2. What risks am I taking in the rain, and how to minimise them plse?
3. Is the 911 "notorious" in the rain?
Will appreciate all answers.
The 911 is one of the few cars that have different width tyres front to rear, also the rear tyres follow a different line along the road.
Also Porsche 911's nearly always seam to wear the rears out before the fronts and at any one time you may find that you have greater tread on the front to the rear.
Most cars i have driven and encountered aquaplaning result in severe understeer for a second or two. The 911 is the only car i have driven that has given me massive oversteer when aquaplaning.
You need to be very aware of a few things:
1. Your actual tread depth on the inside edges of the rear tyres if its less than 3mm you are very vulnerable, if its between 3-5mm you are less so etc and if the tyres are brand new you should drive with confidence to a point/
2. If you see a puddle coming up back off alot to reduce your entry speed and don't un-settle the car as you hit the puddle let the car glide through it
3. Avoid driving in the ruts on a motorway where the water is the deepest, you will find grip running on the crowns of the road, in general on a normal road it means largely driving down the middle.
4. Don't think TC or ESP or 4WD will help, the car is not touching the tarmac, there is nothing it can do but wait until the aquaplaning has stopped and then try and get you lined up, you may well have run out of road before that happens.
I also drive a 530D and lost the front end in the middle of a right hander when coming home on a road i know well, i very nearly hit the kerb and lost it... reason (apart from going too fast) was the front tyres are down to 2mm and i had not got round to changing them. I was well within the speed limit and generally a 530D is a monster through the rain, just shows every car has a limit.
Also Porsche 911's nearly always seam to wear the rears out before the fronts and at any one time you may find that you have greater tread on the front to the rear.
Most cars i have driven and encountered aquaplaning result in severe understeer for a second or two. The 911 is the only car i have driven that has given me massive oversteer when aquaplaning.
You need to be very aware of a few things:
1. Your actual tread depth on the inside edges of the rear tyres if its less than 3mm you are very vulnerable, if its between 3-5mm you are less so etc and if the tyres are brand new you should drive with confidence to a point/
2. If you see a puddle coming up back off alot to reduce your entry speed and don't un-settle the car as you hit the puddle let the car glide through it
3. Avoid driving in the ruts on a motorway where the water is the deepest, you will find grip running on the crowns of the road, in general on a normal road it means largely driving down the middle.
4. Don't think TC or ESP or 4WD will help, the car is not touching the tarmac, there is nothing it can do but wait until the aquaplaning has stopped and then try and get you lined up, you may well have run out of road before that happens.
I also drive a 530D and lost the front end in the middle of a right hander when coming home on a road i know well, i very nearly hit the kerb and lost it... reason (apart from going too fast) was the front tyres are down to 2mm and i had not got round to changing them. I was well within the speed limit and generally a 530D is a monster through the rain, just shows every car has a limit.
Pork_n_Beem said:
The 911 is one of the few cars that have different width tyres front to rear, also the rear tyres follow a different line along the road.
Also Porsche 911's nearly always seam to wear the rears out before the fronts and at any one time you may find that you have greater tread on the front to the rear.
Most cars i have driven and encountered aquaplaning result in severe understeer for a second or two. The 911 is the only car i have driven that has given me massive oversteer when aquaplaning.
You need to be very aware of a few things:
1. Your actual tread depth on the inside edges of the rear tyres if its less than 3mm you are very vulnerable, if its between 3-5mm you are less so etc and if the tyres are brand new you should drive with confidence to a point/
2. If you see a puddle coming up back off alot to reduce your entry speed and don't un-settle the car as you hit the puddle let the car glide through it
3. Avoid driving in the ruts on a motorway where the water is the deepest, you will find grip running on the crowns of the road, in general on a normal road it means largely driving down the middle.
4. Don't think TC or ESP or 4WD will help, the car is not touching the tarmac, there is nothing it can do but wait until the aquaplaning has stopped and then try and get you lined up, you may well have run out of road before that happens.
I also drive a 530D and lost the front end in the middle of a right hander when coming home on a road i know well, i very nearly hit the kerb and lost it... reason (apart from going too fast) was the front tyres are down to 2mm and i had not got round to changing them. I was well within the speed limit and generally a 530D is a monster through the rain, just shows every car has a limit.
Cheers Prok N Beam. Is it a fair generalisation that a slow speed in heavy rain is the best bet, or is car still susceptible to aquaplaning at low speeds?Also Porsche 911's nearly always seam to wear the rears out before the fronts and at any one time you may find that you have greater tread on the front to the rear.
Most cars i have driven and encountered aquaplaning result in severe understeer for a second or two. The 911 is the only car i have driven that has given me massive oversteer when aquaplaning.
You need to be very aware of a few things:
1. Your actual tread depth on the inside edges of the rear tyres if its less than 3mm you are very vulnerable, if its between 3-5mm you are less so etc and if the tyres are brand new you should drive with confidence to a point/
2. If you see a puddle coming up back off alot to reduce your entry speed and don't un-settle the car as you hit the puddle let the car glide through it
3. Avoid driving in the ruts on a motorway where the water is the deepest, you will find grip running on the crowns of the road, in general on a normal road it means largely driving down the middle.
4. Don't think TC or ESP or 4WD will help, the car is not touching the tarmac, there is nothing it can do but wait until the aquaplaning has stopped and then try and get you lined up, you may well have run out of road before that happens.
I also drive a 530D and lost the front end in the middle of a right hander when coming home on a road i know well, i very nearly hit the kerb and lost it... reason (apart from going too fast) was the front tyres are down to 2mm and i had not got round to changing them. I was well within the speed limit and generally a 530D is a monster through the rain, just shows every car has a limit.
Sean Edwards said:
Oh! Sorry, to hear, hate to see Porsche's crash 
Hope your ok, but the wallet is not I am sure...
www.seanedwards.eu
Car insured. NCB insured, 500 quid excess, no biggy. Perhaps at renewal time, it may prove a little dear - but I only feel I'm getting back what I paid into the pot all this time....Hope your ok, but the wallet is not I am sure...
www.seanedwards.eu
Ego taken much more of a battering than the wallet.....
The heavy rain is of course a major factor but its more how the road is draining, you will notice that in some areas the water congregates more because of the lie of the land.
Basically unlike regular driving where you concentrate on the far ahead, in heavy rain you need to split your concentration between the far and what you have right in front of you.
As mentioned i crashed my 911 due to aquaplaning when it was not even raining, i was following a car and i did not see water running across the road until i had spray on my windshield by that time i was going through it - he made it through.. i spun about 5 times and came to rest in the trees, was going down a 1 in 7 at the time so it was a long accident.
Its simply down to your tread depth, the depth of the water and your speed - i guess the formula would be fAqua=Speed*DepthWater/DepthTread
so to keep fAqua small you need to minimise speed and/or depth of water and increase depth of tread.
As you cannot influence depth of water (it is what it is) you can influence tread depth and speed.... ergo get new tyres and/or slow down. I am somewhat of a skinflint so i slow down
Hope this is not now boring
Basically unlike regular driving where you concentrate on the far ahead, in heavy rain you need to split your concentration between the far and what you have right in front of you.
As mentioned i crashed my 911 due to aquaplaning when it was not even raining, i was following a car and i did not see water running across the road until i had spray on my windshield by that time i was going through it - he made it through.. i spun about 5 times and came to rest in the trees, was going down a 1 in 7 at the time so it was a long accident.
Its simply down to your tread depth, the depth of the water and your speed - i guess the formula would be fAqua=Speed*DepthWater/DepthTread
so to keep fAqua small you need to minimise speed and/or depth of water and increase depth of tread.
As you cannot influence depth of water (it is what it is) you can influence tread depth and speed.... ergo get new tyres and/or slow down. I am somewhat of a skinflint so i slow down
Hope this is not now boring
Edited by Pork_n_Beem on Friday 1st June 20:03
I spent a lot of time on the Motorway on Sunday night in torrential rain and did not enjoy the experience in my GT3 particularly - the car kept pulling in all manner of directions as I hit the standing water, even at relatively low speed. What amazed me was the speed at which some other cars kept travelling, with total disregard for the conditions. It is amazing that they are legal at 70mph in those conditions, yet my license and wallet is at risk at 85/90 mph on a clear road in good weather.
Ultimately I do not belive it is not a question of the car one drives - adjust speed to the conditions, and only drive as fast as feels safe - even if that is well below the legal limit in certain conditions. Clearly a stiffly sprung sports car on wide tires will be more susceptible to aquaplaning than a soft supermini on thin tires, so allow for that when driving a Porsche or other sportscar.
Having said all that, Chumley I am sorry to hear of your misfortune - however careful one is, accidents do happen. Glad to hear it is only bent metal.
Ultimately I do not belive it is not a question of the car one drives - adjust speed to the conditions, and only drive as fast as feels safe - even if that is well below the legal limit in certain conditions. Clearly a stiffly sprung sports car on wide tires will be more susceptible to aquaplaning than a soft supermini on thin tires, so allow for that when driving a Porsche or other sportscar.
Having said all that, Chumley I am sorry to hear of your misfortune - however careful one is, accidents do happen. Glad to hear it is only bent metal.
Hi
My 928 has huge tyres on the back and much smaller on the front and it doesnt aquaplane....not at legal speeds at least..but a 928 does have an almost perfect 50/50 weight ratio front to rear...which may help...
I dont quite understand how this accident was caused....
You were doing a legal 70 mph on a straight motorway and without braking or twisting the steering wheel you suddenly went into a spin caused by aquaplaning ????
I just cannot see that somehow....
Could you elaborate on what CAUSED the aquaplane to start please ???
All the best Brett
My 928 has huge tyres on the back and much smaller on the front and it doesnt aquaplane....not at legal speeds at least..but a 928 does have an almost perfect 50/50 weight ratio front to rear...which may help...
I dont quite understand how this accident was caused....
You were doing a legal 70 mph on a straight motorway and without braking or twisting the steering wheel you suddenly went into a spin caused by aquaplaning ????
I just cannot see that somehow....
Could you elaborate on what CAUSED the aquaplane to start please ???
All the best Brett
Brett928S2 said:
Hi
Could you elaborate on what CAUSED the aquaplane to start please ???
Nope = I'm pretty used to the whole doin' nuthin' when bad things happen. I was in the middle lane, nothing inside me, nothing outside me. large expanse of empty motorway in front of me - I could see the water and had already slowed, this was not a lift off oversteer. Could you elaborate on what CAUSED the aquaplane to start please ???
I did nuthin' except a very small expletive as I started going backwards.
One thing which sticks in my mind, possibly because it still stays with me now is that at no time, even with hindsight, did I sense any danger until I got out of the car.
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