Buying advice on GT3's
Discussion
Hi everyone,
I posted a few days ago re a GT3 (mk1) for sale thru an Indy, and had some useful replies, so thank you to those who posted.
Now I've had chance to gather a few thoughts and continue some research, as well as investigate what's currently available for sale, I'd be very interested to hear from those who've gone down this route before...btw, have done a search on PH and found a fair bit of info as well.
Initially, I set out with the intention of trying to stretch to a Mk-2. In my own mind, each has their merits...hand-built and limited with the Mk1 (and perhaps better handling manners?)...with the Mk2, a few items that are more robust (gbox being the main one, as well as brakes), as well as c.20hp more. Brakes don't worry me too much at all, tbh...it's not to be a track or Ring weapon for me...
I've read threads that lead me to believe that Mk-1's that have approx 40k miles are occassionally suffering from Gearbox woes. (I've also heard of probs relating to the LSD)
1) How common is this complaint (please don't compare to RMS type discussion!!...whole other can o'worms!)...i.e., out of the 106 RHD models in the country, does anybody have a view on a percentage?
2) What exactly are the problems encountered?
3) How costly to fix, or are there preventative measures that can be taken?
For these reasons, and the fact that most Mk1 GT3's only have about 2yrs left that they can be warrantied for (with Porsche GB), am I best to concentrate efforts on Mk2?
I really do like each in equal measure (visually), but fair to say, this is not to be a garage queen occassional toy. I don't drive daily (work from home a lot of the time), but it's also fair to say that I don't get time to do trackdays by the dozen (hence, may be selling my beloved Westfield to help fund GT3 acquisition).
Is the fact that I cant take out a Porsche warranty in 2yrs a "real" problem...aware that other specials like the 993 RS's/GT2/TT, etc, are also in the same boat.
Now...the next bit...private versus trade...
There are a couple of very nice private cars being offered (who's is the Iris blue Mk1 currently for sale on PH, BTW?)...BUT...how would you guys go about buying such a car? (I've either bought from a mate, bought from indy dealer or got company car before, never from "unknown" private seller).
Understandably, the vendor is unlikely to let me drive his (or hers?..) P&J...so, having not driven a GT3 before, how do I both assess its "for me" and whether its a good-un and feels like a regular GT3? Should I simply rely on feedback from whoever inspects the car?
When I bought my current C2, I commissioned GT-One to do their 111 point inspection, got several items identified and remedied, and turned out v well for me...is this the only way I could persue a privately advertised car?
Sorry for length of thread, but now getting VERY excited (note to self...do not jump for sake of jumping!!), but this really is a lot of money for me to invest in a lump of metal, so need to ensure its right.
Many thanks
S
I posted a few days ago re a GT3 (mk1) for sale thru an Indy, and had some useful replies, so thank you to those who posted.
Now I've had chance to gather a few thoughts and continue some research, as well as investigate what's currently available for sale, I'd be very interested to hear from those who've gone down this route before...btw, have done a search on PH and found a fair bit of info as well.
Initially, I set out with the intention of trying to stretch to a Mk-2. In my own mind, each has their merits...hand-built and limited with the Mk1 (and perhaps better handling manners?)...with the Mk2, a few items that are more robust (gbox being the main one, as well as brakes), as well as c.20hp more. Brakes don't worry me too much at all, tbh...it's not to be a track or Ring weapon for me...
I've read threads that lead me to believe that Mk-1's that have approx 40k miles are occassionally suffering from Gearbox woes. (I've also heard of probs relating to the LSD)
1) How common is this complaint (please don't compare to RMS type discussion!!...whole other can o'worms!)...i.e., out of the 106 RHD models in the country, does anybody have a view on a percentage?
2) What exactly are the problems encountered?
3) How costly to fix, or are there preventative measures that can be taken?
For these reasons, and the fact that most Mk1 GT3's only have about 2yrs left that they can be warrantied for (with Porsche GB), am I best to concentrate efforts on Mk2?
I really do like each in equal measure (visually), but fair to say, this is not to be a garage queen occassional toy. I don't drive daily (work from home a lot of the time), but it's also fair to say that I don't get time to do trackdays by the dozen (hence, may be selling my beloved Westfield to help fund GT3 acquisition).
Is the fact that I cant take out a Porsche warranty in 2yrs a "real" problem...aware that other specials like the 993 RS's/GT2/TT, etc, are also in the same boat.
Now...the next bit...private versus trade...
There are a couple of very nice private cars being offered (who's is the Iris blue Mk1 currently for sale on PH, BTW?)...BUT...how would you guys go about buying such a car? (I've either bought from a mate, bought from indy dealer or got company car before, never from "unknown" private seller).
Understandably, the vendor is unlikely to let me drive his (or hers?..) P&J...so, having not driven a GT3 before, how do I both assess its "for me" and whether its a good-un and feels like a regular GT3? Should I simply rely on feedback from whoever inspects the car?
When I bought my current C2, I commissioned GT-One to do their 111 point inspection, got several items identified and remedied, and turned out v well for me...is this the only way I could persue a privately advertised car?
Sorry for length of thread, but now getting VERY excited (note to self...do not jump for sake of jumping!!), but this really is a lot of money for me to invest in a lump of metal, so need to ensure its right.
Many thanks
S
Edited by spenny_b on Friday 29th June 12:44
paracetamol said:
"Buying advice on GT3's" what????
wheel? clutch?
People who are unable to punctuate correctly should not be allowed (or in fact be in a financial position) to purchase a Porsche! Of course, this would decimate Cayenne sales (which is no bad thing
Pardon?...I meant GT3's "in general"...sorry, perhaps I should've been clearer wheel? clutch?
People who are unable to punctuate correctly should not be allowed (or in fact be in a financial position) to purchase a Porsche! Of course, this would decimate Cayenne sales (which is no bad thing
Thanks for the really helpful comment.
Edited by spenny_b on Friday 29th June 14:04
Paracetamol said:
"Buying advice on GT3's" what????
wheel? clutch?
People who are unable to punctuate correctly should not be allowed (or in fact be in a financial position) to purchase a Porsche! Of course, this would decimate Cayenne sales (which is no bad thing
Bit pedantic and irrelevant! Is your quotation open ended, as you've not closed the bracket?wheel? clutch?
People who are unable to punctuate correctly should not be allowed (or in fact be in a financial position) to purchase a Porsche! Of course, this would decimate Cayenne sales (which is no bad thing
Probably the weakest part of a GT3 is the gear box and especially so in a MK1 as it doesn't have the oil cooler, butt hat doesn't mean to say that all cars suffer from this at any particular mileage, if they do though you will be looking at a bill of several thousand pounds to fix it. The LSD will wear (the clutch plates go) so that you end up an open diff, but unless you are driving hard on a track you are unlikely to notice this anyway, it can be fixed with new clutch plates for about £1,000.
If you are going to buy one privately you do want to get it inspected as there are plenty of little suspension things that could be worn and need replacing and if the mileage is 40kish then new dampers will make a big difference to the car.
I'd still go and look at some at dealers and take a test drive or two, most private sellers would at least expect to drive you in the car and you will get a much better idea if you have driven at least one before.
Richard
If you are going to buy one privately you do want to get it inspected as there are plenty of little suspension things that could be worn and need replacing and if the mileage is 40kish then new dampers will make a big difference to the car.
I'd still go and look at some at dealers and take a test drive or two, most private sellers would at least expect to drive you in the car and you will get a much better idea if you have driven at least one before.
Richard
Paracetamol said:
People who are unable to punctuate correctly should not be allowed (or in fact be in a financial position) to purchase a Porsche! Of course, this would decimate Cayenne sales (which is no bad thing
Such pedantry deserves more. Do you mean 'decimate' or annihilate, perhaps?Just to add to Richards post. The source of MkI gearbox problems is Worn Syncros. On the MkII the synchros have been replaced with harder wearing versions. As Richard also said, there is a gearbox cooler on the MKII.
Regarding the diff plates - the LSD shares lubricant with the gearbox. When the LSD plates wear, the bits drop into the gearbox oil thus contaminating it. This is compounded by the fact that the routine services on the GT3 do not incorporate gearbox oil change until around 90k miles (IIRC). I suggest you change it every 10k miles as its an easy job and cheap insurance. BTW the diff CANNOT be properly tested in the car - it must be removed and tested with a torque wrench on the bench. The standard MKI / MkII diff doesn't have much preload when standard anyway. My diff was removed from the car at 20k miles and tested spot on after LOTS of track days so don't panic unless you are spinning wheels.
Im not going to start another MKI / MKII debate but in my mind the MKII is fantastic value for money at under £50k for a private sale, much newer and has all the upgrades from the MKI. I had the same debate 2 yrs ago and went for the MKII.
Steve
Regarding the diff plates - the LSD shares lubricant with the gearbox. When the LSD plates wear, the bits drop into the gearbox oil thus contaminating it. This is compounded by the fact that the routine services on the GT3 do not incorporate gearbox oil change until around 90k miles (IIRC). I suggest you change it every 10k miles as its an easy job and cheap insurance. BTW the diff CANNOT be properly tested in the car - it must be removed and tested with a torque wrench on the bench. The standard MKI / MkII diff doesn't have much preload when standard anyway. My diff was removed from the car at 20k miles and tested spot on after LOTS of track days so don't panic unless you are spinning wheels.
Im not going to start another MKI / MKII debate but in my mind the MKII is fantastic value for money at under £50k for a private sale, much newer and has all the upgrades from the MKI. I had the same debate 2 yrs ago and went for the MKII.
Steve
richad027 said:
Probably the weakest part of a GT3 is the gear box and especially so in a MK1 as it doesn't have the oil cooler, butt hat doesn't mean to say that all cars suffer from this at any particular mileage, if they do though you will be looking at a bill of several thousand pounds to fix it.
Thanks for the info, appreciated....would/has this kind of problem been covered by an official warranty?Actually, I'm still to understand what the problems really are (synchro shattering?), presumably it's synchro related, as these were "beefed-up" on the Mk2?
Also assume LSD plates wearing is purely wear-n-tear, and that 40k is a typical life expectancy for them?
Again, thank you all.
Edited to say...I must've been typing at the same time as Merritt was typing!...reading now...cheers
Edited by spenny_b on Friday 29th June 14:27
LSD life is very driving style related. Standing starts and lots of track days will kill it faster than road driving in theory. Im not sure most average people would notice to be honest.
I had mine checked for about £150 whilst the gearbox was out having the RMS done (under warranty). I also changed the flywheel and clutch for the loghtweight single mass version at the same time as there was no labour involved... it makes quite a difference to the engine respone so worth doing if you have the clutch out.
Steve
Edit to say LSD life, not synchro although there is some element of truth there too!
I had mine checked for about £150 whilst the gearbox was out having the RMS done (under warranty). I also changed the flywheel and clutch for the loghtweight single mass version at the same time as there was no labour involved... it makes quite a difference to the engine respone so worth doing if you have the clutch out.
Steve
Edit to say LSD life, not synchro although there is some element of truth there too!
Edited by Merritt on Friday 29th June 14:47
I'm guessing that punctuation lessons are not a lot of help to you, in your quest for a GT3.
I have a Mk1 and have had gearbox problems which I viewed as a wear and tear item that I would eventually have to spend out on.
I had a fighting fund of £5k and a few months ago suffered jumping out of gear when pulling away, in first and reverse gears.
I had mine fixed (synchros) by Andy Fearns and the bill was nowhere near as high as expected even though any sign of wear was replaced as the box was in bits. I decided to have the lower ratio crownwheel and pinion fitted along with the motorsport cables, whilst the car was in bits, which bumped the bill up.
I know of three others with similar issues that have all been used fairly hard on circuit with bills ranging from £2.5 - £4k.
If you take one for a test drive and you hear any whining from the trans expect to see a bill for Motorsport parts as they are quite noisy or expect to have to foot a bill for MS parts in the near future.
As you are not going to track the car much it should be a fit and forget repair if you ever had to do it.
Apart from that a pre-purchase check should show up the other common issues with a tracked car i.e. worn suspender bushes, tired dampers.
The rest of the car should not be unduly bothered with a track history, if the fluids have been regularly changed. I am sure others will be along with their views soon.
I have a Mk1 and have had gearbox problems which I viewed as a wear and tear item that I would eventually have to spend out on.
I had a fighting fund of £5k and a few months ago suffered jumping out of gear when pulling away, in first and reverse gears.
I had mine fixed (synchros) by Andy Fearns and the bill was nowhere near as high as expected even though any sign of wear was replaced as the box was in bits. I decided to have the lower ratio crownwheel and pinion fitted along with the motorsport cables, whilst the car was in bits, which bumped the bill up.
I know of three others with similar issues that have all been used fairly hard on circuit with bills ranging from £2.5 - £4k.
If you take one for a test drive and you hear any whining from the trans expect to see a bill for Motorsport parts as they are quite noisy or expect to have to foot a bill for MS parts in the near future.
As you are not going to track the car much it should be a fit and forget repair if you ever had to do it.
Apart from that a pre-purchase check should show up the other common issues with a tracked car i.e. worn suspender bushes, tired dampers.
The rest of the car should not be unduly bothered with a track history, if the fluids have been regularly changed. I am sure others will be along with their views soon.
A PPI is the way to go.. No matter where you buy her from..
Long term, the MK1 will be worth more (you know I am right)..
I did all this 3 months ago when looking for mine.. I was looking to pay £50k, and thought, Do I pay the same money for a car 3-4 years older ?
But there was something in the back of my mind (and the smoother looks) saying MK1..
At this point, I did not care what colour it was, I just wanted the nicest car I could find.
I ended up with a 2000 GT3 MK1, 16,000 miles OPC S/H.
All I can say, Is have a PPI done on which ever one you choose, and buy the best one you can find..
Good luck
Long term, the MK1 will be worth more (you know I am right)..
I did all this 3 months ago when looking for mine.. I was looking to pay £50k, and thought, Do I pay the same money for a car 3-4 years older ?
But there was something in the back of my mind (and the smoother looks) saying MK1..
At this point, I did not care what colour it was, I just wanted the nicest car I could find.
I ended up with a 2000 GT3 MK1, 16,000 miles OPC S/H.
All I can say, Is have a PPI done on which ever one you choose, and buy the best one you can find..
Good luck
ProAna said:
Paracetamol said:
People who are unable to punctuate correctly should not be allowed (or in fact be in a financial position) to purchase a Porsche! Of course, this would decimate Cayenne sales (which is no bad thing
Such pedantry deserves more. Do you mean 'decimate' or annihilate, perhaps?spenny_b said:
paracetamol said:
"Buying advice on GT3's" what????
wheel? clutch?
People who are unable to punctuate correctly should not be allowed (or in fact be in a financial position) to purchase a Porsche! Of course, this would decimate Cayenne sales (which is no bad thing
Pardon?...I meant GT3's "in general"...sorry, perhaps I should've been clearer wheel? clutch?
People who are unable to punctuate correctly should not be allowed (or in fact be in a financial position) to purchase a Porsche! Of course, this would decimate Cayenne sales (which is no bad thing
Thanks for the really helpful comment.
Edited by spenny_b on Friday 29th June 14:04
Paracetamol said:
You mean GT3s then! and not GT3's
If you like, Paracetamol, if you like...Have you anything contructive to say on my original topic, punctuation notwithstanding? Have you actually bothered to read my post to see if you could enlighten me with your (obviously) superior knowledge?To the other (helpful) PH'ers, thanks for your input, really appreciated, and quite enlightening to hear of bills that aren't *necessarily* in the 5 digit category, especially w.r.t. the gearbox rebuild with associated upgrades.
S
PS...Tim/gfreeman...wasn't it you that we sat next to in that pavement cafe in Sees on the way down to Le Mans last year? You had the rather nice (cough) numberplates and I had the silver C2?
S
PS...Tim/gfreeman...wasn't it you that we sat next to in that pavement cafe in Sees on the way down to Le Mans last year? You had the rather nice (cough) numberplates and I had the silver C2?
Edited by spenny_b on Friday 29th June 16:45
My MK1 has done 46k miles. I track my car quite a lot and change the LSDs each year. I changed the gearing over the winter and had the gearbox checked on that occasion : although I had not experienced any problems, we pro-actively replaced the synchros (with steel synchros) and gearbox bearings (my MK1 already has an aftermarket oil cooler on the gearbox), and as Tim Court suggests, the total parts bill for the gearbox was less than 1k. LSD parts were just over 300. I also change the gearbox oil every 7 track days or so.
But if you stay on the street, none of all this should be a major worry
But if you stay on the street, none of all this should be a major worry
Edited by maximu5 on Friday 29th June 17:26
Maximu5, thanks for your thoughts...I genuinely am surprised how (dare I use the term) "reasonable" these gbox fettling exercises are...I was expecting somebody to come back with a cost that would make this exercise prohibitive for me. That's the same order of magnetude as my Westie would cost (if I had time to do the amount of trackdays that I wanted!).
Game on!
Game on!
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