Which 911 to start out with to turn into track car?
Discussion
I'm getting itchy feet and contemplating swapping my 968 for a 911. I use the car for mainly road use, but also do a few track days a year, which are my priority. My 968 is very track focussed at present (see profile).
The tricky bit is that anything I swap for has to be quicker on the track than my 968 is, however I've only got c. £30k to play with, so both a GT3 and 964RS are out of reach.
I don't seem to see many "regular" 911s that have been tweaked to make them more track oriented. Is there a reason for this? What would people recommend is the best starting point to achieve this with? From giving it some thought over the weekend, it seemed that a pre-facelift 996 with sport exhaust, KW variant 3 suspension and performance pads should do ok on a track. I prefer the older cars, but the 996 would appear to be a better starting point and the prices are attractive.
Any thoughts?
Or, am I barking up the wrong tree, and should either go for a M3 CSL or find an extra £10k for a GT3?
The tricky bit is that anything I swap for has to be quicker on the track than my 968 is, however I've only got c. £30k to play with, so both a GT3 and 964RS are out of reach.
I don't seem to see many "regular" 911s that have been tweaked to make them more track oriented. Is there a reason for this? What would people recommend is the best starting point to achieve this with? From giving it some thought over the weekend, it seemed that a pre-facelift 996 with sport exhaust, KW variant 3 suspension and performance pads should do ok on a track. I prefer the older cars, but the 996 would appear to be a better starting point and the prices are attractive.
Any thoughts?
Or, am I barking up the wrong tree, and should either go for a M3 CSL or find an extra £10k for a GT3?
Edited by willdew on Monday 16th July 15:06
VerySideways said:
Keep the 968CS!
Or if you really must change save up for a 964/993RS or a GT3.
Or spend £20k on a 993C2 and throw £10k at it (suspension, brakes, seats, wheels, removing bits like spare wheel and rear seats and sound deadening.
I love the 968, but I fancy a change. However, it is exceptionally difficult to find something that is attractive without spending big money (which I don't have).Or if you really must change save up for a 964/993RS or a GT3.
Or spend £20k on a 993C2 and throw £10k at it (suspension, brakes, seats, wheels, removing bits like spare wheel and rear seats and sound deadening.
Is a 993 REALLY a better starting point than a 996? Wouldn't the 996 increased rigidity and extra power stack the rewards firmly in it's favor?
Willdew, my March'02 facelift 3.6 C2 will be in the classifieds soon, which may be ideal as it was ordered with GT3 suspension (30mm lower), spts seats, spts exhausts and now fitted with 19" 997 Carrera wheels. 81K miles, owned from new with FPSH and at £26.5K will still leave you a few quid to spend on other upgrades. Never been tracked and very reliable. PM me if you want further details, pics etc
VerySideways said:
Or spend £20k on a 993C2 and throw £10k at it: suspension, brakes, seats, wheels, removing bits like spare wheel and rear seats and sound deadening, and then get 100 cell cats, RSR's, and a remap.
That sounds attractive: a £40k 993RS-alike is probably a good place to have your money too.SS7
willdew said:
Is a 993 REALLY a better starting point than a 996? Wouldn't the 996 increased rigidity and extra power stack the rewards firmly in it's favor?
Without getting drawn into the 993 vs 996 debate, if i wanted a 996 track car i'd only consider GT3, GT2, or Turbo (because of the 964 based bottom end). Or i'd put £10k into my "engine go bang emergency fund".Hence the reason i said stick with the 968, or go 964RS, or go 996 GT3, or go 993 and spend cash (in that order).
I have a 993 which has had exactly that done to it, KW, cage, harnesses uprated pads and fluid, buckets. It still isnt significantly quicker than a 968 with the same equipment unless you get on a track with a very long straight. It is much more demanding to drive fast as it fights back a lot more than the 968. If you cant afford a GT3 then dont bother would be my advice. From personal experience from what I have seen on track, the 996 with KW etc. will have an edge on the 993 but my gut feeling is they wont stand up to the track beating as well as the 993 which seems more bulletproof in terms of build quality etc.
willdew said:
I don't seem to see many "regular" 911s that have been tweaked to make them more track oriented. Is there a reason for this? What would people recommend is the best starting point to achieve this with? From giving it some thought over the weekend, it seemed that a pre-facelift 996 with sport exhaust, KW variant 3 suspension and performance pads should do ok on a track. I prefer the older cars, but the 996 would appear to be a better starting point and the prices are attractive.
Or a 964 C2 with tweaks. If you're interested, I'll be selling mine next month - MY90 964 C2, factory LSD, Bilstein/H+R suspension, big reds, full engine rebuild 3000 miles ago, Cup 1s, regularly tracked. If I was keeping it, next steps would be weight loss then more power (9M Motec probably). Drop me a PM if you want more info.Withou getting invloved too much in the debate, if you do get a 996 make sure it has the extra oil scavenge pump fitted. This came as part of the 320bhp power upgrade pack but was/is also available as an item in it's own right. This was because when raced the engines blew due to oil starvation, so Porsche Club GB got Porsche GB to make the pump kit available on its own so driver's could better protect their engines whilst not increasing power (and therefore stay within the race regs).
shoestring7 said:
That sounds attractive: a £40k 993RS-alike is probably a good place to have your money too.
SS7
With all due respect, why?...A £40k 993Rs lookalike is the same money as a real 964RS....that's where you'd be better off putting that much money.SS7
Therewas a slightly ratty Rubystone - nice colour
car at what looked like a sheepskin-coat-and-portakabin outfit somewhere in London at about £27k recently....I'm sure it had been thrashed to within an inch of its life, but might be a better starting point for your money...threads on here and PCGB IIRC....rubystone said:
Therewas a slightly ratty Rubystone - nice colour car at what looked like a sheepskin-coat-and-portakabin outfit somewhere in London at about £27k recently....I'm sure it had been thrashed to within an inch of its life, but might be a better starting point for your money...threads on here and PCGB IIRC....
Gmund bought that and have done a fair bit of work on it - now for sale at £34K. Not a bad deal if you can stretch to it. car at what looked like a sheepskin-coat-and-portakabin outfit somewhere in London at about £27k recently....I'm sure it had been thrashed to within an inch of its life, but might be a better starting point for your money...threads on here and PCGB IIRC....Not a bad starting point: http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/197188.htm
No one has said it yet, but I'm thinking my last point of an M3 CSL is sounding like the sensible option. On paper it would seem to be in a similar vein to my 968 with an extra 100bhp per ton and a more modern car.
Should also be a safe place to put £30k whist I find another £10k to add to it to scratch the GT3 or 964RS itch.
Should also be a safe place to put £30k whist I find another £10k to add to it to scratch the GT3 or 964RS itch.
ian964 said:
rubystone said:
Therewas a slightly ratty Rubystone - nice colour car at what looked like a sheepskin-coat-and-portakabin outfit somewhere in London at about £27k recently....I'm sure it had been thrashed to within an inch of its life, but might be a better starting point for your money...threads on here and PCGB IIRC....
Gmund bought that and have done a fair bit of work on it - now for sale at £34K. Not a bad deal if you can stretch to it. car at what looked like a sheepskin-coat-and-portakabin outfit somewhere in London at about £27k recently....I'm sure it had been thrashed to within an inch of its life, but might be a better starting point for your money...threads on here and PCGB IIRC....willdew said:
No one has said it yet, but I'm thinking my last point of an M3 CSL is sounding like the sensible option. On paper it would seem to be in a similar vein to my 968 with an extra 100bhp per ton and a more modern car.
Should also be a safe place to put £30k whist I find another £10k to add to it to scratch the GT3 or 964RS itch.
The CSL is one of the slowest depreciating used cars at present. You'll pick one up for just over £30k and when set up properly, will give GT3's and RS's a good run for their money on track. Should also be a safe place to put £30k whist I find another £10k to add to it to scratch the GT3 or 964RS itch.
Try the gearbox .... no one I know with a CSL has a problem with it. Its a far better proposition on track than a manual IMO. Upshifts and downshifts are lighting speed and as long as you select S5 (S6 is a diff ripping gear!) and dont shorshift, the clutch should be fine.
The brakes are a weak point ... on track. So either you do one of two things .... pad, fluid and hose upgrade (which is the best value for money improvement) or go the whole hog like most of us and stump up for some AP's.
But the best part is the practicaility .... it doesnt attract too much attention which is great and you can take a passanger and a set of 4 wheels to the track!
With a £30k budget and if its an element of practicality (i.e. its your only car, as my CSL is for me) you need, there is no car which will come close.
rubystone said:
ian964 said:
rubystone said:
Therewas a slightly ratty Rubystone - nice colour car at what looked like a sheepskin-coat-and-portakabin outfit somewhere in London at about £27k recently....I'm sure it had been thrashed to within an inch of its life, but might be a better starting point for your money...threads on here and PCGB IIRC....
Gmund bought that and have done a fair bit of work on it - now for sale at £34K. Not a bad deal if you can stretch to it. car at what looked like a sheepskin-coat-and-portakabin outfit somewhere in London at about £27k recently....I'm sure it had been thrashed to within an inch of its life, but might be a better starting point for your money...threads on here and PCGB IIRC...."We have sourced a full set of mag alloys for the car which are booked in for a refurb and new tyres. There are some paint defects that we are going to have looked at and at the moment we are trying to source a full RS carpets set for the inside and an original RS steering wheel.
Considering the mileage the car is as I would expect it, it goes into the workshop this week for a full inspection and review and the work will start there. At first glance on the ramp the engine is very dry with no ‘damp’ patches it appears as though the oil pipes on the right hand side of the car will be replaced
There is a substantial history file with the car which the previous owner looks like he has spared no expense on normal servicing and maintenance of the vehicle, also there are a few bills from its time in Germany. He has upgraded the front disc and there is a bolt in half cage to the rear, CAT 1 alarm and immobiliser.
The car is showing 194k KM on the clock."
oola said:
willdew said:
No one has said it yet, but I'm thinking my last point of an M3 CSL is sounding like the sensible option. On paper it would seem to be in a similar vein to my 968 with an extra 100bhp per ton and a more modern car.
Should also be a safe place to put £30k whist I find another £10k to add to it to scratch the GT3 or 964RS itch.
The CSL is one of the slowest depreciating used cars at present. You'll pick one up for just over £30k and when set up properly, will give GT3's and RS's a good run for their money on track. Should also be a safe place to put £30k whist I find another £10k to add to it to scratch the GT3 or 964RS itch.
Try the gearbox .... no one I know with a CSL has a problem with it. Its a far better proposition on track than a manual IMO. Upshifts and downshifts are lighting speed and as long as you select S5 (S6 is a diff ripping gear!) and dont shorshift, the clutch should be fine.
The brakes are a weak point ... on track. So either you do one of two things .... pad, fluid and hose upgrade (which is the best value for money improvement) or go the whole hog like most of us and stump up for some AP's.
But the best part is the practicaility .... it doesnt attract too much attention which is great and you can take a passanger and a set of 4 wheels to the track!
With a £30k budget and if its an element of practicality (i.e. its your only car, as my CSL is for me) you need, there is no car which will come close.
I just need to arrange a go in one to form my own opinion.
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