Are dealers legally obliged to offer a guarantee?
Discussion
Honest John in the Telegraph motoring section yesterday stated that under the Sale of Goods Act all dealers have to offer a six month guarantee on any car they sell.
This seems to be at odds with reality when even very reputable dealers like 911Virgin state:
"The Millennium bug or Pink price is for the car exactly as it stands, no guarantee, no pre-sales service, nothing. You are guaranteed clean title to the car in terms of ownership but that is it."
So what is the truth?
This seems to be at odds with reality when even very reputable dealers like 911Virgin state:
"The Millennium bug or Pink price is for the car exactly as it stands, no guarantee, no pre-sales service, nothing. You are guaranteed clean title to the car in terms of ownership but that is it."
So what is the truth?
a Guarantee is different to a warranty.
The former is that the goods are legal and 'fit for purpose' the latter is a warranty that will pay for anything that breaks in a set amount of time.
So even if you buy at Henrys Bug price - this does not effect your statutory rights, and should the engine fall off rotten mounts before you get it home, you are legally entitled to get a full refund.
There is no such thing as 'sold as seen' when buying from a dealer
The former is that the goods are legal and 'fit for purpose' the latter is a warranty that will pay for anything that breaks in a set amount of time.
So even if you buy at Henrys Bug price - this does not effect your statutory rights, and should the engine fall off rotten mounts before you get it home, you are legally entitled to get a full refund.
There is no such thing as 'sold as seen' when buying from a dealer
Deutscher said:
Fidgits said:
There is no such thing as 'sold as seen' when buying from a dealer
Well, that's what Honest John says as well, but I'm still not clear on the difference between a 'guarantee' and a 'warranty'.So say, you buy your car with a 12 month warranty, and, i dont know, the fuel pump goes a couple of months after you bought it - the warranty will pay to repair it.
If you buy your car without a warranty (a-la Henry Bug), and a couple of months after, the fuel pump breaks, you have to pay for it to be fixed.
However, if you buy a car from a dealer, any dealer or registered organisation, and the car turns out to be 'not fit for purpose' - so say, a week after buying it, the brakes stop working, the suspension collapses or the engine drops out - you can argue the car they sold you was 'not fit for purpose'.
It is a bit of muddy water between the two - but the simple fact is, your statutory rights mean if you buy from a dealership, you have rights, which basically mean the car they are selling should be road worthy and in good condition.
A lot of less-than-honest dealerships (usually the small, dodgy, cheap car places) sell 'sold as seen' and argue that you have no comeback - thats illegal and wrong - if something goes wrong immediatly, you have comeback.
If something breaks in a short time, which cannot be atributed to 'wear and tear' or the age of the vehicle, you'll have comeback.
Sorry I cant explain it any better than that - it is confusing.
Fidgits said:
Deutscher said:
Fidgits said:
There is no such thing as 'sold as seen' when buying from a dealer
Well, that's what Honest John says as well, but I'm still not clear on the difference between a 'guarantee' and a 'warranty'.So say, you buy your car with a 12 month warranty, and, i dont know, the fuel pump goes a couple of months after you bought it - the warranty will pay to repair it.
If you buy your car without a warranty (a-la Henry Bug), and a couple of months after, the fuel pump breaks, you have to pay for it to be fixed.
However, if you buy a car from a dealer, any dealer or registered organisation, and the car turns out to be 'not fit for purpose' - so say, a week after buying it, the brakes stop working, the suspension collapses or the engine drops out - you can argue the car they sold you was 'not fit for purpose'.
It is a bit of muddy water between the two - but the simple fact is, your statutory rights mean if you buy from a dealership, you have rights, which basically mean the car they are selling should be road worthy and in good condition.
A lot of less-than-honest dealerships (usually the small, dodgy, cheap car places) sell 'sold as seen' and argue that you have no comeback - thats illegal and wrong - if something goes wrong immediatly, you have comeback.
If something breaks in a short time, which cannot be atributed to 'wear and tear' or the age of the vehicle, you'll have comeback.
Sorry I cant explain it any better than that - it is confusing.
That is exactly how I understand it. The only way that a dealer can sell without a guarantee is to state the item as "spares or repair" or "not in roadworthy condition" or similar.
The length of the guarantee as i understand, depends on the item sold, its value, the expected condition for its age price etc etc. Its all a bit subjective.
If you buy a £5 cd player and it lasts 14 months, you would have little recourse, but if you bought a super duper quality one at £300 and it failed outside the warranty due to premature wear or poor manufacture, you still have a right to claim for its repair.
In the case of a top marque sports car, I would imagine that any major premature breakdowns would leave you in a strong position with the dealer and even the manufacturer in some cases.
The length of the guarantee as i understand, depends on the item sold, its value, the expected condition for its age price etc etc. Its all a bit subjective.
If you buy a £5 cd player and it lasts 14 months, you would have little recourse, but if you bought a super duper quality one at £300 and it failed outside the warranty due to premature wear or poor manufacture, you still have a right to claim for its repair.
In the case of a top marque sports car, I would imagine that any major premature breakdowns would leave you in a strong position with the dealer and even the manufacturer in some cases.
"It is a bit of muddy water between the two " ...............you are not kidding, we sometimes get a customer who is handy with the spanners who wants to buy at rock bottom cut to the bone price, with no comebacks whatsoever..........only way I can do that is to get him to sign that he is a motor trader, ie John Smith Car Sales, then mark the invoice trade sale, otherwise despite buying at a trade price, he would have retail customer (and price) assurances.
sneaky little F*****. i bought a car from a certain independent dealer in kent who marked my invoice as trade sale, I wondered why he did that. especially as the car has since turned out to have some major problems. i bought it without the extra (inhouse) warranty but doesn't mean he should be attempting to negate my statutory rights. w*nker.
sneaky little F*****. i bought a car from a certain independent dealer in kent who marked my invoice as trade sale, I wondered why he did that. especially as the car has since turned out to have some major problems. i bought it without the extra (inhouse) warranty but doesn't mean he should be attempting to negate my statutory rights. w*nker.
chinoloco said:
"It is a bit of muddy water between the two " ...............you are not kidding, we sometimes get a customer who is handy with the spanners who wants to buy at rock bottom cut to the bone price, with no comebacks whatsoever..........only way I can do that is to get him to sign that he is a motor trader, ie John Smith Car Sales, then mark the invoice trade sale, otherwise despite buying at a trade price, he would have retail customer (and price) assurances.
sneaky little F*****. i bought a car from a certain independent dealer in kent who marked my invoice as trade sale, I wondered why he did that. especially as the car has since turned out to have some major problems. i bought it without the extra (inhouse) warranty but doesn't mean he should be attempting to negate my statutory rights. w*nker.
Thats okay.sneaky little F*****. i bought a car from a certain independent dealer in kent who marked my invoice as trade sale, I wondered why he did that. especially as the car has since turned out to have some major problems. i bought it without the extra (inhouse) warranty but doesn't mean he should be attempting to negate my statutory rights. w*nker.
He's not allowed to do that - you could easily take him to court - it'd be his word against yours, but unless your in the motortrade, you would win.
From what I understand it (I've been to the local Trading Standards seminar for Motor Traders etc) the 6 month period that is talked of came about with a change in the law a few years ago. It used to be up to buyers to prove that a fault within 3 months was there at time of supply.
It now goes like this: if a vehicle develops a fault within the first 6 months of ownership then it is the dealer's responsibility to prove that the fault was not there when the car was supplied. Sometimes this is self-evident (i.e. in the fuel pump example the car wouldn't have run if it was at fault at time of supply), sometimes it is something freely admitted by the customer ("it's been fine for the first few months, but now x has happened"
, sometimes it is evidenced by an inspection report carried out before supply (MOT, or dealer's insepction, or buyer's inspection). If the fault can be proven as having been there at time of supply and is not reasonable for a car of it's age, mileage and condition, then the dealer has to deal with it, unless said fault was declared as having been there at time of supply.
It now goes like this: if a vehicle develops a fault within the first 6 months of ownership then it is the dealer's responsibility to prove that the fault was not there when the car was supplied. Sometimes this is self-evident (i.e. in the fuel pump example the car wouldn't have run if it was at fault at time of supply), sometimes it is something freely admitted by the customer ("it's been fine for the first few months, but now x has happened"
, sometimes it is evidenced by an inspection report carried out before supply (MOT, or dealer's insepction, or buyer's inspection). If the fault can be proven as having been there at time of supply and is not reasonable for a car of it's age, mileage and condition, then the dealer has to deal with it, unless said fault was declared as having been there at time of supply.- Please note this is the law as I understand it, it does not represent our attitude to dealing with our customers and their cars. We always aim to exceed what is required and meet or exceed everyone's expectations. That's why people come back.
Our "bug price" is a fairly unique way of buying / selling outlined here .
What we can`t do is say "all our cars go out at the bug price & that`s it". That wouldn`t be legal. What we are doing is offering a number of different price options. Critically we also put a safety net in place whereby if someone buys at the bug price & something goes wrong that disadvantages them financially against a person buying at the retail price then we allow the person to retrospectively revert the deal to a retail sale & we`ll step in & pay the difference to mend the problem. That`s the bit others trying to copy us get wrong. We self police ourselves to the point we have never had to employ the services of a solicitor or fight a legal battle in nearly 15 years of selling Porsches a fact I`m quite proud of. We`ve also had the trading standards people round on 2 occasions at out invitation to make sure we`re all above board.
The full retail price is a real belt & braces option, obviously we`re not turning the car into a new vehicle but if someone has a problem with a wear item such as brakes we`ll sort it out (it should have been spotted during the service prior to the car leaving us).
There are occasions where we get a cheap `n cheerful car in and we sell it as seen but it`s clearly advertised as such with no punches pulled.
We`re also finalising a very transparent after-sales warranty that will hopefully let folks know exactly what they`re getting. There will always be times when, especially with an older car, different people have different views as to what constitutes good & bad, the trick is striking a happy balance.
Henry
What we can`t do is say "all our cars go out at the bug price & that`s it". That wouldn`t be legal. What we are doing is offering a number of different price options. Critically we also put a safety net in place whereby if someone buys at the bug price & something goes wrong that disadvantages them financially against a person buying at the retail price then we allow the person to retrospectively revert the deal to a retail sale & we`ll step in & pay the difference to mend the problem. That`s the bit others trying to copy us get wrong. We self police ourselves to the point we have never had to employ the services of a solicitor or fight a legal battle in nearly 15 years of selling Porsches a fact I`m quite proud of. We`ve also had the trading standards people round on 2 occasions at out invitation to make sure we`re all above board.
The full retail price is a real belt & braces option, obviously we`re not turning the car into a new vehicle but if someone has a problem with a wear item such as brakes we`ll sort it out (it should have been spotted during the service prior to the car leaving us).
There are occasions where we get a cheap `n cheerful car in and we sell it as seen but it`s clearly advertised as such with no punches pulled.
We`re also finalising a very transparent after-sales warranty that will hopefully let folks know exactly what they`re getting. There will always be times when, especially with an older car, different people have different views as to what constitutes good & bad, the trick is striking a happy balance.
Henry
The Law is not (and never has been) as cut and dried and some contributors have stated in practice and in all these things it is actually what is "reasonable" that counts - because the guidelines issued by trading standards also explain that if you buy a used car at half the price of a new car -that price difference reflects the fact that it is not new and therefore not as good as new and some faults consistent with a car of that age and mileage (and half the price of a new one) could be reasonably expected. So although the law does protect normal buyers from defects that existed at the time of sale - this is still only in relation to the price paid and other "normal" expectations for the age and mileage. This basically means that - in actual practice - if you bought a car that had covered 300K miles at 5% of the price of a new one and after 6 months the clutch went - even if it may have been quite worn when you bought it - you will have no chance whatsoever in suceeding in a claim unless it was stated that the clutch had just been replaced (for example) - because if the condition is stated innacurately - or misleadingly - that is a different matter.
Furthermore if a car is sold on a "trade sale" basis it is not neccessarily being sold as a perfect vehicle that can imediateley be driven reliably - it might indeed be sold by one trader to another with known faults that he intends to fix.
Like Henry we also have never even received a legal letter about any sales problems or indeed service related supplies and are not only proud of that but also want to preserve that reputation - so would go out of our way to avoid such an event.
However we also sometimes get a car in that would benefit the customer more if it were sold as it came in and we may offer this on a trade sale basis and stipulate that this means it is being sold with all its faults whatever they are - and have never had a problem.
Typical of this would be a sale to someone from abroad (or so far away he will use someone else more local to him to look after it and prefers them to go over it rather than us) - or a good home mechanic who can benefit from fixing a few minor faults himself - or in one case a car sprayer who obviously didn't want any paintwork doing before the sale and added to the price.
Recently we sold a car in superb condition (sold it previously 6 years before and looked after it ever since) that had only covered 2K/year average since the first sale but had developed a few minor faults and was sold as a trade sale to a customer from Eire at a saving of £3K. This benefitted him as it would be almost impossible to justify the cost of bringing it back here even if it developed a fault over there and he already had retained the funds to contribute towards a repair in the unlikely event that it did.
In all these deals - as long as there is nothing untoward hidden and everyone is clear about the situation - there should be no problems - it is only when someone tries to hide a known fault behind the facard of a trade sale that problems could emerge and like anything else - you don't get that from legitimate honorable dealers and always get it from crooks.
So any of you reading some of the statements on this subject who think they can batter a dealer who is offering such deals - remember - you will usually be better off being reasonable and flexible over the solution - in the first instance than launching into an aggressive stance only to find the law did not support you as much as some postinge here suggested.
Baz
Furthermore if a car is sold on a "trade sale" basis it is not neccessarily being sold as a perfect vehicle that can imediateley be driven reliably - it might indeed be sold by one trader to another with known faults that he intends to fix.
Like Henry we also have never even received a legal letter about any sales problems or indeed service related supplies and are not only proud of that but also want to preserve that reputation - so would go out of our way to avoid such an event.
However we also sometimes get a car in that would benefit the customer more if it were sold as it came in and we may offer this on a trade sale basis and stipulate that this means it is being sold with all its faults whatever they are - and have never had a problem.
Typical of this would be a sale to someone from abroad (or so far away he will use someone else more local to him to look after it and prefers them to go over it rather than us) - or a good home mechanic who can benefit from fixing a few minor faults himself - or in one case a car sprayer who obviously didn't want any paintwork doing before the sale and added to the price.
Recently we sold a car in superb condition (sold it previously 6 years before and looked after it ever since) that had only covered 2K/year average since the first sale but had developed a few minor faults and was sold as a trade sale to a customer from Eire at a saving of £3K. This benefitted him as it would be almost impossible to justify the cost of bringing it back here even if it developed a fault over there and he already had retained the funds to contribute towards a repair in the unlikely event that it did.
In all these deals - as long as there is nothing untoward hidden and everyone is clear about the situation - there should be no problems - it is only when someone tries to hide a known fault behind the facard of a trade sale that problems could emerge and like anything else - you don't get that from legitimate honorable dealers and always get it from crooks.
So any of you reading some of the statements on this subject who think they can batter a dealer who is offering such deals - remember - you will usually be better off being reasonable and flexible over the solution - in the first instance than launching into an aggressive stance only to find the law did not support you as much as some postinge here suggested.
Baz
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