air cooled 911 and oversteer
Discussion
I'm thinking about an aircooled 911 as an everyday car but I can't get a straight answer about how they behave on the limit.
I like oversteer and have been driving relatively powerful rear drive cars for years. I'm not talking about Top Gear style smoking tyres but a graceful quater of a turn of opposite lock on the exit of a damp roundabout. I don't enter the roundabout or corner at a speed that means I couldn't corner as normally and I don't play if there are other cars around. I don't have the lack of mechanical sympathy to do it in the dry (very often). I've never come close to losing control.
I know I wouldn't be able to resist trying to "tame" the 911. The question is: are they as tricky as they say? Will I crash it?
I like oversteer and have been driving relatively powerful rear drive cars for years. I'm not talking about Top Gear style smoking tyres but a graceful quater of a turn of opposite lock on the exit of a damp roundabout. I don't enter the roundabout or corner at a speed that means I couldn't corner as normally and I don't play if there are other cars around. I don't have the lack of mechanical sympathy to do it in the dry (very often). I've never come close to losing control.
I know I wouldn't be able to resist trying to "tame" the 911. The question is: are they as tricky as they say? Will I crash it?
I would try playing on large open spaces (airfields, car parks etc) rather than wet roundabouts to begin with but I think you will be surprised how good it really is. They're much less of a handful than a car that's very light at the rear, e.g. Caterfields, in the wet - those will just let go and you're spinning. A 911 is only really likely to bite you on the arse if you lift off entirely (the gas, not as in launch your car vertically - like I did at the weekend 
, but that's another story....) in the middle of a quick bend, otherwise you'll find the weight's in just the right place to ensure you can apply power and have it efficiently transformed into forward motion. If it does start to slide a bit, try to steer through it backing off gently only if really necessary.
, but that's another story....) in the middle of a quick bend, otherwise you'll find the weight's in just the right place to ensure you can apply power and have it efficiently transformed into forward motion. If it does start to slide a bit, try to steer through it backing off gently only if really necessary.BMWChris said:
Why? I don't crash my (more powerful) 80's BMWs. I spose I meant what does the rear engine do to the handling? Is it unpredictable?
The car isn't but wet roundabouts are. It's easier to control at higher speeds in an oversteer state and less likely to 'snatch' back than at lower speeds. Nut behind the wheel etc.BMWChris said:
The question is: are they as tricky as they say? Will I crash it?
The reputation was gained when the world was full of rear wheel drive cars, all mostly low powered.The arrival of a high-powered rear-wheel drive car was of course met with many people spinning off, in modern times I keep hearing of people spinning mid-engined cars rather than rear engined ones.
Both mid and rear engined will become a bit hairy if you suddenly lift off round a corner, so you don't. In the 911 I find you can actually give them a good caning round the corners because the back stays so planted.
Even in a 930 in 2nd with the boost rising, on a grippy dry road the back just digs in and you get full traction, it rarely drifts and if it does it's pretty tame. Fishtailing in the wet is tricker to catch, often you need to just give up and stick the clutch in to get it back quickly.
I have to keep jumping from a 1991 BMW 325i and a 996 GT2,
The difference i notice the most is how quickly the 325 will straighten up compared to the 911 because of the mass of the engine.
You basically use up more road / track in a 911, so make sure you have plenty, also the 911 likes to go back the other way just to annoy you, proper fishtail, once you get your timing right and get ahead of the slide, its all good.
The 911 is actually one of the more easier cars to slide because its all happening so slow, however it does have a lower point of no return and not much lock, compared to a BMW
The difference i notice the most is how quickly the 325 will straighten up compared to the 911 because of the mass of the engine.
You basically use up more road / track in a 911, so make sure you have plenty, also the 911 likes to go back the other way just to annoy you, proper fishtail, once you get your timing right and get ahead of the slide, its all good.
The 911 is actually one of the more easier cars to slide because its all happening so slow, however it does have a lower point of no return and not much lock, compared to a BMW
BMWChris said:
Why? I don't crash my (more powerful) 80's BMWs. I spose I meant what does the rear engine do to the handling? Is it unpredictable?
Ok, first things first, let's not mention the 996- that's no 911 and has little in common with the older air cooled ones. i'm VERY experienced with 1980s and earlier BMWs and their handling.
The 911 is very different. The wheel base is shorter, meaning it has a low polar moment of inertia and its back comes around VERY FAST.
The weight distibution is very rear ward balanced. The tyres on the later ones are quite wide and 'grippy'.
For drifting you want a good track-width to wheel base ratio. A Westfield is ideal and an old narrow track BMW with its longer wheel base is quite suitable also. The 911 is none of these things. For graceful tail out drifting I'm not saying it's not possible, but the balance is a precarious one on the limit. I've seen one video of a 993 GT2 being drifted very skillfully, but usually, and especially when it's a 993 Turbo4 it's barely a drift.
All said about the 996, (and i've never tried to drift one) - is a better car to drift than a 911- especially something like a GT3, which is stiffly sprung
Edited by Marquis_Rex on Wednesday 5th September 07:10
You'll notice a huge difference compared to powerful BMWs; the main diference is the amount of grip. Even in the wet in my 964, I have to be trying pretty hard to spin the rear wheels.
Also, most M varian BMWs come with limited slip diffs, whereas the 911 doesn't tend to. Again, this is a factpr of the car having so much mechanical grip.
Also, most M varian BMWs come with limited slip diffs, whereas the 911 doesn't tend to. Again, this is a factpr of the car having so much mechanical grip.
Marquis_Rex's description is correct.
Some people think an air-cooled 911 is going to flip around at every opportunity, but it's just not true.
I've had air-cooled 911s as daily drivers since 1983, and covered close on 200,000 miles in all manner of conditions, and I've never had a problem in normal use, despite making all the classic errors.
The rear end has so much grip and traction that it is very difficult to unstick - even when you want to on a handling circuit. It naturally understeers and it is the lighter front end that is more easily unstuck. Quite the opposite of what is required for 'drifting'.
I love the original 911s' handling because it conveys so much information through all the controls and is so rewarding to drive well. There is a fantastic relationship between steering and throttle inputs.
If in doubt get some tuition.
Some people think an air-cooled 911 is going to flip around at every opportunity, but it's just not true.
I've had air-cooled 911s as daily drivers since 1983, and covered close on 200,000 miles in all manner of conditions, and I've never had a problem in normal use, despite making all the classic errors.
The rear end has so much grip and traction that it is very difficult to unstick - even when you want to on a handling circuit. It naturally understeers and it is the lighter front end that is more easily unstuck. Quite the opposite of what is required for 'drifting'.
I love the original 911s' handling because it conveys so much information through all the controls and is so rewarding to drive well. There is a fantastic relationship between steering and throttle inputs.
If in doubt get some tuition.
The reputation of 911s being tail happy came from the very first short wheelbase cars, which were by all accounts a bit of a handful on their skinny rear tyres (I've never driven one personally). By the early 70's they lengthened the wheelbase slightly, fitted wider tyres and the handling became very safe. Every air cooled 911 I've driven, from early 70's to mid 90's has been totally planted at the rear on power. Power oversteer is virtually impossible to provoke in the dry and I don't bother trying in the wet. The only oversteer you'll get is when lifting off or braking suddenly on corner entry, which is certainly not recommended! Otherwise, the balance is generally neutral to mild understeer. The main thing that usually catches out the inexperienced is a tendency to lock the front wheels under sudden braking.
Youre more likely to experience understeer than oversteer. There's not a lot of weight on the front wheels, and reasonable power and grip available at the back. It makes wet roundabouts interesting.
It's not a car you would really want to drift in a big way. If you don't the only time you're likely to loose the back end is under braking. (Which is not very interesting at all!) - 3.2C
It's not a car you would really want to drift in a big way. If you don't the only time you're likely to loose the back end is under braking. (Which is not very interesting at all!) - 3.2C
Edited by dilbert on Wednesday 5th September 12:23
Hi Ballcock - Yeah the guys on the forum kept stating this and i did have a C2 on my radar but it just looked too bland for the money and the value is P*ssing out of them at the moment compared to the C4S.
I would have loved a GT3 as driving one of them reminded me of the steering feel and rawness of an Elise/Exige BUT i needed the rear seats.
Dont get me wrong, car is perfect for the daily commute and there has not been one squeek,rattle or warning light that has made me think - typical sportscar.
I would have loved a GT3 as driving one of them reminded me of the steering feel and rawness of an Elise/Exige BUT i needed the rear seats.
Dont get me wrong, car is perfect for the daily commute and there has not been one squeek,rattle or warning light that has made me think - typical sportscar.
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