How would you spec a 997 club sport?

[Loach]

OK, so the 997 came relatively nowhere in the AUTOCAR and CAR shoot-outs, war is quietly raging about the GT-R price : performance and a fair few journos have had a bit of a whinge that the latest 997 Gen 2 is a bit quiet and numb. But listen to the guys in this clip...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qreQwTeaVWY

"With mild manners and solid but tame responses, the Porsche 911 lacks the reactions required to catch the Evo on the track or in the mountains, but it's still very quick."


When did the 911 become mild and tame? I know Porsche went after the fatties and muppets in the late '90s, but have they gone a bit too far now? Every generation has made the same purist-catterwailing at each new iteration of the 911, but there's no doubting the facts that the 911 has become progressivley heavier (by and large), a bit bigger, a bit quieter and a bit more user friendly as time has gone by. The guys presenting the clip may not be the be all and end all of motoring journalism, but the comments aimed at the 997 didn't seem to be meant in a critical or prejudicial way. Is that how the new 911s are percieved now? Lovely things in their own right that deliver a bit of excitement on the limit, but are generally so-so dynamically and a bit plush and fat?

If we're heading into a recession, my vote is that Porsche makes a new entry level sports 911. It's not like they haven't done it before. A standard 997 C2 with 18's, lightened to the tune of 100 kilos with a couple of delete options (a la M3 CSL), less sound deadening, a sporty LSD, sport-shift, no PASM, no navigation (buy a bloody Garmin FFS), lighter carpet, less sound deadening, lightweight seats etc etc and a restricted range of colours. A new Club Sport. 59,995 quid, no limit to numbers but a limited production time. It's all very well letting the GT3 and GT3 RS carry the 'sports' mantle, but they cost a LOT. Fast Porsche always have, and I understand that, but I think the rest of the 911 range needs its own middle-weight contender to stop it getting dismissed to the ranks of comfy GTs. GT3s/GT2s are there to carry the fight to the upper echelon 80k+ and 100k+ machinery, but Porsche is looking a bit dull in the 50-70k bracket these days against cars like the V8 M3 and GT-R. All IMO.

In any event, I'd like to see a Club Sport 911 and I think it's about time those of us not quite ready to stretch to 90k were given an option of something decently raucous and exciting in the 911 range. At the moment, M3s, RS4s and GT-Rs at 55k just look too tempting and seem to offer a more exciting drive despite their being proper 4 seaters with added practicality. It's lovely to have the Porsche badge, but with a depression perhaps upon us, given that the fickle will evaporate immediately, how long can Porsche rely on the enthusiasts to hang in there if the cars don't deliver against the competition?

Edited by Loach on Saturday 4th October 14:20

[98C4S]

+1

[tertius]

I agree, and would add (if you didn't mention them which you might have):

non-S engine
non-S brakes
buckets as std
rear seat delete as std (option to add in)
cage optional
rear wiper delete as std
manual windows
no sunroof as std (option to add in)

Target being a light(-ish) fun, nimble, but not out and out straightline fast, two seater. Equally usable road or track.

[Davey S2]

The Cayman would be the better car to develop as a 'Club Sport' IMO

[forza whites]

Guys

I think (95% sure) PORSCHE did a 997 Club Sport...but only in limited numbers for the
you've guessed it........

USA



OK just checked it was the 997 Club Coupe...Porsche made 50...all for America...not sure of the spec
but would be interesting to know the configuration and what was included etc

Edited by forza whites on Saturday 4th October 15:54

[Steve_M]

I agree with the OP.

Sadly if you want to sell a car to the masses you have to have a car that appeals to the masses.
Porsche have been going down that road for a long time now. Why do you think the GT3 / RS sell so well. Unfortunately you now have to be rich as well as a purist to own a thoroughbred 911 or wait years for it to depreciate to a realistic level.

[Police State]

maybe RUF (or similar) could produce what Loach (& Tertius) have suggested; though perhaps they couldn't do it within the specified price range. Or... maybe Porsche are planning to produce something in the spirit of the original 911's with the muted joint VW project... They can't be completely out of touch that they don't realise that they have a large enthusiast base in the price ranges mentioned, and that this fan base is not the same type of buyer who wants a boxster/cayman compromise.

[Police State]

forza whites said:

Guys

I think (95% sure) PORSCHE did a 997 Club Sport...but only in limited numbers for the
you've guessed it........

USA



OK just checked it was the 997 Club Coupe...Porsche made 50...all for America...not sure of the spec
but would be interesting to know the configuration and what was included etc

Edited by forza whites on Saturday 4th October 15:54

check it out here: (nice colour...)

http://autojunkie.blogspot.com/2005/12/new-997-clu...

[forza whites]

Police State said:

forza whites said:

Guys

I think (95% sure) PORSCHE did a 997 Club Sport...but only in limited numbers for the
you've guessed it........

USA



OK just checked it was the 997 Club Coupe...Porsche made 50...all for America...not sure of the spec
but would be interesting to know the configuration and what was included etc

Edited by forza whites on Saturday 4th October 15:54

check it out here: (nice colour...)

http://autojunkie.blogspot.com/2005/12/new-997-clu...

That would be it then...so am presuming the X51 power kit was standard??

why do they only do this for America??

annoying

[Loach]

forza whites said:

That would be it then...so am presuming the X51 power kit was standard??

why do they only do this for America??

annoying

In haven't bothered to Google this, so my recollection stems from reading articles in the Porsche press, but my understanding was that the USA got this model because it was comissioned to celebrate 50 years of the PCA or something. As for the car itself, whilst it's a lovely colour, it's not the sort of thing I'm thinking of at all. Firstly, there was a ton of arse-paddling going on amongst PCA members about who would go on the waiting list and who would get a car. When the dust settled, some of those that were allocated a car sold them on immediately etc etc the usual bullst surrounding Porsche special editions. Firstly, I don't think a Club Sport should be limited. A limited production period perhaps, to keep the notion of exclusivity out there and to restrict supply to some degree, but over a period of (say) 12-18 months, anyone that wants a Club Sport should be able to get one. Secondly, the PCA Club car is essentially another fat-assed 997 with a ton of options thrown at it. It's very exclusive and everything, but not in the spirit of a Club Sport IMO. I'd like to see a 911 CS priced at realistic and profitable levels, which means Porsche will almost certainly be leaving stuff off the car rather than putting it on.

I like some of the spec suggestions above, and someone else mentioned that the Cayman would better lend itself to be made into a CS model. Perhaps, but the Cayman doesn't exactly need help to re-establish its sporting credentials within its niche. I'd love to see a Cayman CS, but I would love to buy a 911 CS. That's just me, though.

Why can't we petition the PCGB to apply for their own special edition? How hard can it be to drum up a few orders and apply to Porsche UK/AG with the proposal "We have 100 applicants here for a CS model that should cost 60k or less in standard form and should be a lighter and more enthusiastic form of the C2 Coupe."

Who at Porsche would baulk at a potential 50+ orders?

F**k it. If nobody else is doing it, tell me who to talk to and I'll get on with it.

[forza whites]

Hi Loach
agree ..if there was a big enough effort/demand am sure Porsche Cars GB would listen...
they would be fool hardy not to?...in ANY financial climate....isn't anyd goss a northener??
am sure if he was guaranteed 50 or so sales of a limited edition...with their input etc?

Problem is the common denominator in getting 50 + new purchasers all wanting the same
thing/specification etc....

[Streetrod]

Loach, I like your style, your ideas have a lot of substance, the idea of a limited production time rather than a limited number is inspired. I have been very vocal on these forums about what I have seen as Porsche's decline in recent years which I think is sad. Your idea I think is very good but I don’t think it is a long term solution.
Porsche I feel have to retake the high ground and at the moment the only way I fell they could do this is with a new model. Now would that be a completely new 911 or new car altogether I'm not sure but I truly feel they have to do something and soon as the market is not going to wait for them to catch up.

[jackal]

Loach said:

But listen to the guys in this clip...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qreQwTeaVWY

"With mild manners and solid but tame responses, the Porsche 911 lacks the reactions required to catch the Evo on the track or in the mountains, but it's still very quick."


When did the 911 become mild and tame? [/footnote]

where have you been hiding ?

evos are very very sharp and agile and have been that way for years and the basic porsches have been known to be the opposite for sometime now... i.e. right back with the evo5 in 1997 when the 911 was arguably even more stodgy than the current 997.

tbh, im suprised that you're suprised

but who GAF, its another dumb-ass road test. Buy what you like, enjoy it, rag it, then sell it on and get something else.

[Wetwipe]

Loach said:

forza whites said:

That would be it then...so am presuming the X51 power kit was standard??

why do they only do this for America??

annoying

In haven't bothered to Google this, so my recollection stems from reading articles in the Porsche press, but my understanding was that the USA got this model because it was comissioned to celebrate 50 years of the PCA or something. As for the car itself, whilst it's a lovely colour, it's not the sort of thing I'm thinking of at all. Firstly, there was a ton of arse-paddling going on amongst PCA members about who would go on the waiting list and who would get a car. When the dust settled, some of those that were allocated a car sold them on immediately etc etc the usual bullst surrounding Porsche special editions. Firstly, I don't think a Club Sport should be limited. A limited production period perhaps, to keep the notion of exclusivity out there and to restrict supply to some degree, but over a period of (say) 12-18 months, anyone that wants a Club Sport should be able to get one. Secondly, the PCA Club car is essentially another fat-assed 997 with a ton of options thrown at it. It's very exclusive and everything, but not in the spirit of a Club Sport IMO. I'd like to see a 911 CS priced at realistic and profitable levels, which means Porsche will almost certainly be leaving stuff off the car rather than putting it on.

I like some of the spec suggestions above, and someone else mentioned that the Cayman would better lend itself to be made into a CS model. Perhaps, but the Cayman doesn't exactly need help to re-establish its sporting credentials within its niche. I'd love to see a Cayman CS, but I would love to buy a 911 CS. That's just me, though.

Why can't we petition the PCGB to apply for their own special edition? How hard can it be to drum up a few orders and apply to Porsche UK/AG with the proposal "We have 100 applicants here for a CS model that should cost 60k or less in standard form and should be a lighter and more enthusiastic form of the C2 Coupe."

Who at Porsche would baulk at a potential 50+ orders?

F**k it. If nobody else is doing it, tell me who to talk to and I'll get on with it.

hey buddy

why would porsche sell a 997 clubby for sub 60 when they have boxster rs60's rolling out the door at 54k!

am i missing something. recession or no recession they are having no problem shifting metal.

i for one would love to see a stripped out 3.6. air con and leccy windows only.

no carbuncle on the dash etc

BUT what they would end up building is a 3.8 4wd, full of carbon & alacantara, carbon bonnet, light weight wheels, no rear seats, those horny gt2 adjustable buckets and sell it for "only" 85k

<alas>

[Loach]

forza whites said:

Hi Loach
agree ..if there was a big enough effort/demand am sure Porsche Cars GB would listen...
they would be fool hardy not to?...in ANY financial climate....isn't anyd goss a northener??
am sure if he was guaranteed 50 or so sales of a limited edition...with their input etc?

Problem is the common denominator in getting 50 + new purchasers all wanting the same
thing/specification etc....

That's a problem, but it's not a big problem. There are a couple of ways of going about it. If the car was to be produced in a limited batch of (say) 50, with each car carrying a little plaque and so on, then the spec would matter to a far lesser degree than if a run was planned of several hundred over a longer period.

Naturally, the forum here alnog with those at 911uk and Rennlist etc, along with contact with PCGB would elicit feedback and suggestions, but in essence, we could agree a framework specification to start with, leaving only the details to be hammered out. In any event, as I see it (and I'm flexible) I would like the specification of the car in question to be somewhat limited. It defeats the purpose of a CS if the options list is left as it is. I like the way the older Porsche RS and CS models had a fairly defined specification because it makes buying them a much easier proposition. My initial framework would look something like...

1) Basis is a C2 bodyshell. We're going for a bit of lightness here and we're trying to keep costs down.
2) Manual only, and the short-shift isn't essential IMO.
3) Lightweight Sports seats. Personally, I like the reclining GT2 buckets, but don't want them in carbon if that adds money.
4) Rear Seat delete as standard. (they can be added at small cost)
5) No PASM. Again, I'd like the costs reduced, and think a standard suspension set-up could be found that goes half-way bewteen the old sports suspension 3cm drop, and the standard 997 setting. Say a 2 cm drop to make the car look purposeful.
6) One or two lightweight panels - how about a composite engine lid for example?
7) Unique lightweight alloy design - preferrably in 18" standard fit. The car should be about lightness and finesse. If you want 19's, go to the Techquipment catalogue.
8) Optional ClubSport scripting and a little bit of CS detailing... such as little a little 'CS' scripting in the dials and something in the rear bulkhead carpet.
9) Delete option rollcage trimmed in suede - RUF do it and it looks fabulous, plus I'd like some details to set the CS apart a bit. I'd love to see a little fixed rear spoiler. A tiny hint of a duck-tail. Why the hell not? I'm easy about this, though.
10) Less kit in the car. It comes standard with no rear wiper, no sunroof and no PCM screen. Simplified and lighter door cards and perhaps the same for the centre console. Any other deletion/lightness suggestions would be great.
11) I'd like the colour scemes limited. I'd like it to be immediately identifiable as a CS with or without the side scripts. Unique alloys will help, but I'd like a couple of traditional old Porsche colours available exclusively to the CS - at least initially. Again - open to suggestions. Look how popular the green and orange GT3 RS colours were. An initial suggestion would be white with pale bronze wheel centres and pale bronze scripting, but I'm easy. Porsche Designs VIP 997 Racer runs those colours and it looks nice. There's bound to be some sort of recent and relevant Motorsport tie-in that looks great.
12) Engine - standard C2 DFI unit. Bespoke lightweight exhaust, and if blueprinting etc is prohibitively expensive, then a mildly reprogrammed ECU.

I'm just fleshing it out here, but that's the sort of way I'd be leaning. I'm not looking to think up the ultimate 911, as that would probably have PCCBs, which would necessitate 19" alloys, and then why not have the widebody etc etc and send us off on the wrong tack regarding what it should cost. I'm trying to see how Porsche could reduce the weight and complexity of a standard 911 and substitute some of what's less important to an enthusiast with some of what's missing in the form of a CS special edition. This isn't a slur on C4 owners or anything - I'm just suggesting that there might be pent-up demand for a GT3-lite that doesn't cost as much, and forgoes some of the 997/997S fripperies in search of a slightly more focussed driving experience.

[Fittster]

The Porsche range is very carefully priced so Boxster < Cayman < 911.

If this proposed 911CS is cheaper and faster than the current base 911 who will buy a Cayman?

[Loach]

Wetwipe said:

BUT what they would end up building is a 3.8 4wd, full of carbon & alacantara, carbon bonnet, light weight wheels, no rear seats, those horny gt2 adjustable buckets and sell it for "only" 85k

<alas>

Man, you hit the nail on the head there. No question I'm pissing into the wind here. But let's not moan about it - your negative waves are bringing me down. The USA drummed up a special edition. Why not one for the UK? I'm serious about the legwork. I'll talk to people. What's the worst that could happen?

Times are tough and about to get tougher. Upmarket is one way to go, and Porsche does that as well as anyone. But, they do so leaving some of us behind. Another little option to explore, is the one to achieve current levels of profitability on a 911 that costs less. This is a limited sort of deal only, so I'm NOT trying to re-invent the 911. I'm just saying, that if there was a bit of interest, would anyone be bothered with a sort of GT3-lite model that cost 60ish k and was a bit lighter and a bit more focussed? narrow bodied and simple, with a disticntive look and a bit of what has everyone foaming at the gash about all the great older 911s - that is to say a bit lighter, a bit louder a bit more limited and a bit hairier. Ultimately, the price depends on the numbers and the final spec, but this thing shouldn't cost more than a standard S.

Anyone? Well? Just me then? Tertius as well maybe? Hmm?

[cardigankid]

98C4S said:

+1

+1

But why make it a limited edition. This defeats the object of giving those of us who want one a chance, and Porsche always charges more not less for limited editions. fk the little commemorative plaque - what is it going to say, " I saved Porsche Cars GB"? And any of the carbon fibre bonnets, and I agree, the 345 bhp 3.6 engine would be fine - its weight that counts.
What about

1.A limited number of primary colours
2. Some boy racer stripes to distinguish us from the lawyers and ex-merchant bankers
3. It has to sound like a 996 PSE

An austerity model - it has to make sense.

Edited by cardigankid on Saturday 4th October 18:21

[Loach]

Fittster said:

The Porsche range is very carefully priced so Boxster < Cayman < 911.

If this proposed 911CS is cheaper and faster than the current base 911 who will buy a Cayman?

One answer to this, is who gives a f**k. The other centres about the fact that people like me admire the Cayman but don't see the sense in paying a fortune for Porsche to seal the roof on a Boxster. In essence, I wouldn't be out to screw the Cayman, but let's face it... a 911 is a 911. The Cayman is already lauded as the best car in its class. The 911 is starting to slide, so I'm just wondering if Porsche couldn't arrest the slide a little and inject some real enthusiasm into the 911 range at somewhat less than they charge for a GT3, and on a limited basis so that they don't alienate the fatties.

How do Porsche deal with the whole GT3 versus Turbo thing? Theose two models are competitors of a sort. A fully loaded Cayman already costs 911 C2 money, so does the conflict not already exist? How did they arrive at the decision to price the Cayman at higher than its cabriolet stablemate whilst offering no appreciable performance advantage? Conflicts already exist within the Porsche range, but a bigger problem arisis when you have to fire a 90k GT3 or a 100k TT at a 55k GT-R in order to be in with a shout at showing it up. I'm not suggesting a CS would embarrass a GT-R, but it might at least make up in fun what it lacks in outright pace. At the moment, the standard 911 range has gone distincly GT and it lacks a bit of fun. IMO.


ETA - Ultimately, this CS would probably end up costing basic C2S money, I think. I'd like it cheaper, but there's just no way Porsche would allow it to undercut a basic C2. In fact, they would probably want to pitch it at between C2S and GT3 money - it's a delicate balancing act. However, with enough stuff left off - 19" alloys, Xenons, a standard but very mildly tweaked 3.6 engine and manual only, they might let it sneak in at or just below C2S money because with an austere spec, it's not likely to upset C2S customers too much (I don't mean that in a bad way, but perhaps a lot of C2S are bought as company cars with a lot of toys etc).

Edited by Loach on Saturday 4th October 18:34

[Loach]

cardigankid said:

98C4S said:

+1

+1

But why make it a limited edition. This defeats the object of giving those of us who want one a chance, and Porsche always charges more not less for limited editions. fk the little commemorative plaque - what is it going to say, " I saved Porsche Cars GB"? And any of the carbon fibre bonnets, and I agree, the 345 bhp 3.6 engine would be fine - its weight that counts.
What about

1.A limited number of primary colours
2. Some boy racer stripes to distinguish us from the lawyers and ex-merchant bankers
3. It has to sound like a 996 PSE

An austerity model - it has to make sense.

Yes. That's the sort of thing. I would suggest a limited run rather than limited numbers, but dealing with a crowd like Porsche on a project like this is probably going to lead down the limited number route, as they'll want their arses covered. It's possible if there was a great reception to the model and great demand, that the run could be extended. It's on that basis that I'd tackle it. You definitely have to go to them with a fairly firm expression of intent and with some real numbers.