C2 or C4?

[TKD]

Apart from the obvious 4WD and weight difference, what are the pros and cons of each? As an Impreza Type R driver (320bhp, 1260kg) I'm leaning towards the C4.
Is the C2 faster than the C4? I should imagine the C4 would get a better start to say 60, but would then lose some power through transmission.
Can anyone give me some facts and figures and some experiences of both please?

[Melv]

IMHO, you really won't notice the weight/speed difference.

If I was looking for a daily driver, I'd go for the C4 every time. I owned a 964C4 for 6 years and it made light work of even the most atrocious weather.

But remember, 4WD isn't the be all and end all, the laws of physics still apply!!!

Also refer to Cayenne thread!!!

Melv

[pesty]

interesting thread I was wondering the same thing. I come from a wrx and it saved my mistakes so many times.

I was worried about a C2. The first time I go into a corner too fast and lift off will the pendulum effect have me in a ditch? and a C4 not?

[Don]

C4 and WITH PSM.

Very clever technology. Driving in winter - effin' fantastic.

But, as mentioned earlier, normal 4WD helps you go - does nothing about helping you stop! But with the PSM system drive can be transferred from the rear to the front and vice-versa to help keep you on the black stuff.

IIRC in normal driving the power distribution is 90% rear and 10% front and can be adjusted as far as 60% rear 40% front by PSM as necessary.

Due to the 4WD system the front luggage space is SIGNIFICANTLY smaller mind...only enough room for a small bag.

[Don]

pesty said:

interesting thread I was wondering the same thing. I come from a wrx and it saved my mistakes so many times. I was worried about a C2. The first time I go into a corner too fast and lift off will the pendulum effect have me in a ditch? and a C4 not?

Been there and done that in my (very) old 911. The grip of the C2 is nothing short of astonishing anyway....just remember that on road cornering is a different discipline to on-track cornering and you should be just fine...a C2 with PSM should do its best to help you correct the pendulum effect anyway.

I'd still get the C4 though...

[PGM]

I am thinking about ordering my 997 c2 without psm.

My Boxster has it and whilst it is good I don't think I really want or need it as it is not failsafe - I found altering my driving technique more effective.

I'd rather spend my money on more driver training - I can get another 3 days worth for the same money.

If I survive this winter, it won't be on the next car!

My wife will be able to afford a better funeral also if I hit a tree!!!

Edited to say that I came from a Scooby too - my wife currently has a RB5 which I also love.

Cheers
Paul

>> Edited by PGM on Monday 22 December 08:45

[Don]

PGM said:

I am thinking about ordering my 997 c2 without psm. My Boxster has it and whilst it is good I don't think I really want or need it as it is not failsafe - I found altering my driving technique more effective.

Each to their own. But since its the most sophisticated system out there and costs so little as a proportion of the cost of the car and you can switch it off....I'd have it every time.

Piss wet track, Silverstone, Copse = PSM...and no problem. Sure I could be a better driver...but when pushing to the limit it helped rather than hindered...

[meno-porsche]

C2 about 100Kg lighter than C4. No really difference in performance, except to say that the C4 does tend to oversteer more on the limit - not necessarily a bad thing.

With respect to the 964 vs 993 debate, as long as you go for a late 964 (92 or 93), its pretty much the same as the early 993. Get the best one your budget will allow ............ or get one for about £14K and spend £5K with the Ninemiester and have it tweeked to 320bhp.

Will see the Scoobie off every time!!

[kamal996]

I have a C4 tiptronic and C4s come standard with PSM as far as I am aware.

The C4 has a stiffer shell than the C2 apparently and this shell is used on the new GT3(?) which is why it is hardly any lighter than a standard C2 (see Autocar).

My own impressions are that the car doesnt suffer the light feeling front end syndrome of the C2 becasue of the weight of the diff. The handling is "point and shoot" the car just gets on with it and is jaw dropping at high speed road use. It is all but impossible to get it to loose grip in the dry.The negatives are that I dont find the steering as communicative as a my previous boxster or a 993 I used to have. Also the lack of edginess as per the 993 means that you really need to push the car very hard to experience real thrills but as I said earlier..once you get there you just think "wow how the hell does it do that"

[pesty]

Guy's isn't PSM only available on 996's? I think maybe TKD is talking about 964's which I'm prety sure dont have PSM.

Could be wrong I usualy am I think the 993 Carrea 4 had some sort of clever brake distribution thingy but the 964 is free of these kind of things isnt it?

[domster]

964 certainly had no anti-badger devices

the 993 c4 system apportions torque front to back etc but not sure about braking stability control on it

[pesty]

domster said:

964 certainly had no anti-badger devices the 993 c4 system apportions torque front to back etc but not sure about braking stability control on it

I'm sure your right it was probably the C4's torque system I was thinking about which stops power to a spinning wheel I think.

Its all getting a bit much I'm reading porsche magazines and books all the time its driving me bonkers

think I'll just buy an Integra R it'll be a lot simpler

[superlightr]

c2 v c4 in Performance car mag a little while ago, they did a comparsion at MIRA.

contrary to popular believe you cannot have higher cornering forces then the tyres will take in either. there is nothing in it for cornering. and as for a earlier post stopping is no difference/fraction longer for a heavier car

Tyre only have say 100 points available for stearing/grip/acceleration etc, you eat into the 100 points for each bit of stearing, power you put down.

stearing + non driven wheel = more grip then stearing + driven wheels.

I think its was only on acceleration which made some difference and 'pulling out of a slow corner. but then the car was heavier.

I think its a moot point 4wd v 2wd but what isnt is the PSM. Get it for sure. also if you need the boot space the 2wd has much more space.

[Melv]

pesty said:

The first time I go into a corner too fast and lift off will the pendulum effect have me in a ditch? and a C4 not?

Easy answer to that is don't lift!! A C4 will still swap ends if provoked.....been there, done it....

Melv

[Melv]

pesty said:

Guy's isn't PSM only available on 996's? I think maybe TKD is talking about 964's which I'm prety sure dont have PSM. Could be wrong I usualy am I think the 993 Carrea 4 had some sort of clever brake distribution thingy but the 964 is free of these kind of things isnt it?

Yes, and no. 964 has a permantly engaged mechanical clutch with 70/30 spilt rear to front, when traction is lost at the back, power transferred to the front. 993 has a viscous coupling that only comes in to play when traction lost. Many say the 964 system is better. The 964 also has a diff lock in order to move off on snow or ice that automatically disengages when 20mph is reached. DON'T use it on dry surfaces and trun the wheel -transmission wind up could bugger the system....this goes for any 4WD with diff lock on.

Melv

[TKD]

Thanks for the replies. I want a 964 because it's a Porsche and not so much as the next step in performance. A 911 is one of those cars that you simply must own at least once in your life.
Even with a 320bhp upgrade I can't see it being as fast as my Type R scoob (320bhp 300lbft & 0-60 in 4.3)
Would a 320bhp 964 be as quick as a 996? My freind had a 996 C2 cab. I could edge past him to 60mph and we were side by side at 130mph before we run out of (private) road. I think he would have started to pull away after 130 if we had the room. I don't know who was more shocked, me or him!
I have the budget for a 993 as they are not as expensive as I thought, though I may get a 964 and keep the scoob.

[domster]

TKD said:

Even with a 320bhp upgrade I can't see it being as fast as my Type R scoob (320bhp 300lbft & 0-60 in 4.3)

It probably won't be, but traction for a 2WD car is good as it is rear engined. I reckon probably 4.7secs 0-60 with that power, but in the real world dumping a clutch you have to pay for is unnecessary and pretty irrelevant. A Motec'd C2 (or even better, RS, which is lighter, better braked and has a more tuned engine already) is still going to give most real world supercars a tough time. 9M reckons a Motec'd RS is a GT3 beater on track

TKD said:

Would a 320bhp 964 be as quick as a 996?

In what way? On the right track even a mildly tuned RS would probably lap as quickly as a GT3 and even beat a 996tt. On an autobahn the 996tt would stroll away. Even a 996C2 has fantastic aerodynamics compared to a 964 and would muder an older shape car above 130. In my experience, even standard 996s are quick enough. The point of a 964 vs a 996 is that it is a different, more raw, form of 911 ownership. The rewards are not brute power (get a tuned 965 Turbo 2 if that is your aim, a single large turbo contributing to 400bhp gives real punch) but the tactility of the car, the character and the unique driving experience. A 996 is a much more modern 'samey' proposition. It just isn't as quirky, despite being infinitely better in many, many ways.

TKD said:

I have the budget for a 993 as they are not as expensive as I thought, though I may get a 964 and keep the scoob.

The 993 is a better everyday car, cheaper to run, more refined etc. In many ways it has some of the modernity of a 996 and most of the character of the older cars. A good compromise.

If you want something truly raw and exciting, spend 25k on a 964RS. If you want turbo grunt, spend 20k on a Turbo 2 and 5k on tuning it. If you want to keep the scooby and budget is low, get a cheap LHD 964C2 for 14k and spend 4k with 9M on Motec, and get a few suspension/brakes/lightening tweeks for it over the ownership period.

[grant3]

The Porker & Subaru are different animals, so I wouldn't try & compare them. If it was me I'd go for a 964 C2 & keep the Subaru, the 964C4 wasn't that well received & the system was posted as "over complicated & heavy". The 993 system was a lighter & simpler design ! If you have the choice, a 993 C2 is an even better option & if you find yourself looking at 996's then this when I would consider the C4 as an alternative !